Commuter Rail Proposals For Wisconsin. Did someone say RDC's?

[zardoz]

Although commuter rail plans for southeastern Wisconsin are often described as a proposal to extend Chicago's Metra trains from Kenosha to Racine and downtown Milwaukee, planners say they're considering options for a more distinctively Badger brand of service.

One possibility is that Wisconsin commuter trains could serve Wisconsin stops and connect with Metra trains at Kenosha or just south of the border. Another idea is to use self-propelled train cars that could link up or disconnect to form trains of different sizes on different parts of the route at different times of day, with some cars staying in Illinois and others continuing into Wisconsin.

Either option would be aimed at creating a leaner, more efficient and more flexible operation with as few empty seats as possible, said Fred Patrie, chairman of the regional committee studying the commuter rail line. Boosting the rail line's efficiency - as measured by passengers carried per mile - could not only reduce costs but also improve the chances of winning federal aid, said Patrie, the Kenosha County director of public works.

Finances are a key consideration for the commuter rail service. A previous Southeastern Wisconsin Regional Planning Commission study estimated the cost of buying train cars and upgrading existing freight rail tracks at $152 million and projected operating costs at $18.6 million a year. Congress has authorized $80 million for construction, and the earlier study predicted fares would bring in $3.2 million a year.

But the line won't move forward without local funding for the remaining costs, says Ken Yunker, deputy director of the planning commission. The new Southeastern Wisconsin Regional Transit Authority is studying how to fund the rail line. Last month, at a Milwaukee Press Club Newsmaker Luncheon, commuter rail advocates Robert Mariano and Rosemary Potter said private-sector financing should be explored before taxes.

Metra itself will not provide any money for operations in Wisconsin. While the commuter rail agency is cooperating with the Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee study, it is supported by northeastern Illinois taxpayers and must focus on its own area, Metra spokesman Patrick Waldron said.

The operations could remain totally separate if Wisconsin-only trains met the Metra trains at Kenosha; Waukegan, Ill.; or Winthrop Harbor, Ill., Patrie noted. That would require passengers to change trains to get from Chicago's northern suburbs to Racine or Milwaukee's southern suburbs, for example.

Another option would be to use diesel multiple units along the whole line, from downtown Chicago to downtown Milwaukee, Patrie said. Cars at the front of the train could continue into Wisconsin while those at the end of the train could turn back toward Chicago.

Using diesel multiple units would give the rail line the flexibility to run longer trains on the busiest parts of the route at the busiest times of day and shorter trains, even a single car, at times and places with less demand, Patrie said. With shorter trains, the line might be able to run more than the recommended seven weekday round trips, he said.

But Wisconsin would have to pay its share. Indiana taxpayers formed a transportation district to support the South Shore line from South Bend, Ind., to downtown Chicago.

Similar arrangements would be needed for other extensions outside Metra's primary service area, Waldron said. South-central Wisconsin communities are studying an extension from Harvard, Ill., to Beloit or Janesville; Rockford, Ill., is studying an extension from Elgin, Ill.; and previous studies rejected extensions from Antioch, Ill., to Burlington and Silver Lake, and from Fox Lake, Ill., into Walworth County.

Madison, Dane County and the University of Wisconsin-Madison are studying a Madison-area commuter rail line that wouldn't connect to Metra. Madison is also studying a streetcar system.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=417896
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Riding the rails: February ridership jumped almost 12% on Amtrak's Milwaukee-to-Chicago Hiawatha line, to 40,503 from 36,317 in February 2005, DOT rail chief Ron Adams said. In the first two months of this year, ridership rose 13%, to 83,227 from 73,762, Adams said.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=412836

[sd452]

I think as gas prices continue to rise more and more people will be looking for alternative means of transportation. I know the if Green Bay Wis had a better public transportation system I would defenatly considerit more strongly, as it costs me close to $400 a month just to keep my car parked in the garage right now before i even put gas in the tank.

[martin.knoepfel]

The Danish "rubbernose" trainsets (DMUs) would be a solution to this problem. They once operated testwise to and from Las Vegas (to L.A.?) The consists can be lenghtened and shortened quite efficiently, because they had been designed for lines which includes railferries. What you definitely need is a fully automatic coupler, and m.u., of course.

[DPD1]

I think they were talking about using RDC type units on the proposed EJE beltline Metra addition as well.

Dave
http://www.dpdproductions.com
- Featuring the TrainTenna Railroad Scanner Antennas -

[Poppa_Zit]

All of this just proves my point that Milwaukee is about to become another Chicago suburb, just like Kenosha and Racine. [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D]

[David_Telesha]

Somebody needs to make those new DMU look like real trains and not that ugly crap they are...

The Budd RDC and SPV had style. The CCC and Danish DMU is pure ugly.

[coborn35]

Im guessing your not talking about BUDD RDC cars, because they are ancient!

[METRO]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

Im guessing your not talking about BUDD RDC cars, because they are ancient!

Tell that to the Canadians haha.

Milwaukee has been kicking this idea around for ages, I doubt anything at all will come of it. My bet is that they will extend the bus system again.

As for DMUs my money is on the Colorado Rail Car design, however GO Transit is redesigning their equipment again and whenever thay do that, everyone from Vancouver to Miami seems to jump on their designs so we'll see.

Cheers!
~METRO

[daveklepper]

Some RDC's often re-engined with Caterpillar diesels, seem to just soldier on forever. Stainless steel carbodies don't rust out. Possibly some of the Boise-Budds, converted into coaches and coach-cab cars, can become self-propelled again.

But the Colorado Railcar has two advantages: (1) double deck, higher seating capacity, and (2) more powerful, can haul one or two trailers with ease, something the RDC cannot do except on level track.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

All of this just proves my point that Milwaukee is about to become another Chicago suburb, just like Kenosha and Racine. [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D]

Because of the large number of people moving to Kenosha from Illinois recently, it is beginning to feel like a suburb of Chicago (and this is NOT a good thing). Racine is still mostly influenced by Milwaukee, although I suppose that will change someday as well. A market research firm reported a few years ago that there are over 10,000,000 people within 75 miles of Kenosha.

[jeaton]

Dave Gunn had suggested RDC for the Chicago-Milwaukee Hiawathas. No doubt he saw the potential for increased service frequence and more efficient operation. Of course they were down the list. The only new equipment he was able to squeeze out of the budget were yard engines and rack cars for the Auto Train. Those replaced equipment that was about two days from a pile of rust.

[wallyworld]

The irony of this is that there already is service to both Milwaukee and Kenosha by Metra (UP) and Amtrak respectively. This seems to be a reinvention of the wheel. The line most often talked to death about in this endless speculative discussion requires a major - read expensive- rehabilitation. My brother works in Chicago and takes the Southbound Kenosha line at Winthrop Harbor. He likes taking the train with the exception of it having a gazillion stops in the tightly packed stations that are spaced only afew miles apart in Chicago's northern suburbs so much so-that it takes quite awhile to get from A to B. I think electrifying this corridor into a high speed line is long overdue and that more express trains could be run. Rather than use the UP , the former Milwaukee line which used to host some ballast scorching trains, is a better candidate.
I think in it's present form, this sidestep is doomed to be in commitee for eternity ,much like the studied to death proposal of extending the former 80MPH Skokie Valley Route of the CNSM to Lake Cook Road.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

While Metra does indeed operate an existing suburban service between Kenosha and Chicago, service between Kenosha and Milwaukee ended on April 30, 1971. Any high speed service on Metra's North Line is out of the question since much of the area south of Waukegan is built up almost right against the tracks.
Such a service on the MILW line is quite plausible and history has shown that electrification would be an unnecessary expense (Class A's, anybody?).

[wallyworld]

I agree that electrification is a luxury item that only provides increased acceleration. Maybe a modern day equivilent of a Class A is whats needed on the former Milwaukee
http://www.utc.com/press/highlights/jettrain.htm

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

All of this just proves my point that Milwaukee is about to become another Chicago suburb, just like Kenosha and Racine. [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D]

Because of the large number of people moving to Kenosha from Illinois recently, it is beginning to feel like a suburb of Chicago (and this is NOT a good thing). Racine is still mostly influenced by Milwaukee, although I suppose that will change someday as well. A market research firm reported a few years ago that there are over 10,000,000 people within 75 miles of Kenosha.

Much of Kenosha & Walworth counties have historically been more closely tied to Chicago than Milwaukee. The Geneva Lakes area in particular is where the upper & upper middle class from Chicago built their summer homes and both the CNW and Milwaukee ran service from Chicago to many parts of the area. In the days before cars, the really well-off would have their servants pick them up in steam powered boats. I forget the old name of the lake, but just east of that area was a resort area for middle class blacks. I'm less familiar with Milwaukee history and development, but I believe Milwaukee residents summered to the north and west of the city in places like Green Lake, Elkhart Lake.

The central and western part of Kenosha county is booming as well, but many of these people work in Chicago's north and northwest suburbs, some commuting as far south as Schamburg. Extending Metra service on the other old C&NW and Milwaukee lines might serve these people better than trying to funnel everyone down the Kenosha line to downtown Chicago, altough I'm sure there's a need for that too.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up829

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

All of this just proves my point that Milwaukee is about to become another Chicago suburb, just like Kenosha and Racine. [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D]

Because of the large number of people moving to Kenosha from Illinois recently, it is beginning to feel like a suburb of Chicago (and this is NOT a good thing). Racine is still mostly influenced by Milwaukee, although I suppose that will change someday as well. A market research firm reported a few years ago that there are over 10,000,000 people within 75 miles of Kenosha.

Much of Kenosha & Walworth counties have historically been more closely tied to Chicago than Milwaukee. The Geneva Lakes area in particular is where the upper & upper middle class from Chicago built their summer homes and both the CNW and Milwaukee ran service from Chicago to many parts of the area. In the days before cars, the really well-off would have their servants pick them up in steam powered boats. I forget the old name of the lake, but just east of that area was a resort area for middle class blacks. I'm less familiar with Milwaukee history and development, but I believe Milwaukee residents summered to the north and west of the city in places like Green Lake, Elkhart Lake.

The central and western part of Kenosha county is booming as well, but many of these people work in Chicago's north and northwest suburbs, some commuting as far south as Schamburg. Extending Metra service on the other old C&NW and Milwaukee lines might serve these people better than trying to funnel everyone down the Kenosha line to downtown Chicago, altough I'm sure there's a need for that too.

The growth of Kenosha county that you refered to is one of the main reasons Metra put passenger service on the CN line from Antioch to Chicago.

Houses around here are popping up like mushrooms all over the place. BIG houses. Big, boring houses. And few of them with curtains or furniture, as the owners have so little cash left after purchasing these 3000 sq. ft. boxes. And there are many more being built as we speak, many of which you can have for a "mere" US$350,000.

With the continued growth of counties like Waukesha (west of Milwaukee; home of Trains magazine), I wonder if there could be a market to run trains on the CN from Chicago to Waukesha, in addition to the trains to downtown Milwaukee. I know it has been mentioned to run trains north of Antioch to Silver Lake in Kenosha county, and the idea of running further north to Burlington was also discussed.

[CShaveRR]

Express service should be operated over the current Amtrak route from Chicago to Milwaukee. One would hope that if one of the two Midwestern high-speed projects is successful, it would be implemented on this route as well, to bring Chicago-to-Milwaukee service down to about an hour's transit time, even with the stops.

However, if the studies say that commuter service is feasible on the line to Racine and Kenosha, have at it--local stops and all. The fare will probably be cheaper than Amtrak's, and you'll get what you pay for. This line isn't used by freights very much, and would make a great commuter corridor--at least until the Oak Creek power plant is expanded.

As for Chicago to Waukesha, it might be an interesting local service, but I doubt that it could stand up. How about Chicago to Milwaukee via Waukesha?

[Anonymous]

Ok,

I read this topic and was curious. Anyways I can think as far back to 1992 when we have been kickin the idea of a commuter train around. Originally these proposals were very odd and never got off the ground.

The idea when we rebuild I-94 that the commuter line would run either in between 94 West and 94 East and would connect with Milwaukee and Waukesha and place in between.

1997 When we did the I-94 resurfacing project we tried 2 do commuter rail from the Amtrak station 2 Waukesha using amtrak equipment and the now abandoned West Allis line. If I remember right after two weeks, the test was abandoned because nobody used it because of the price, and limited parking.

I am a huge supporter of the Commuter rail project, and can see its advantages in Chicago. The sonner they get Commuter in downtown Milwaukee, the better (Like within a few days ~dreams~. ) the easier it will be for me 2 take a job in Northern Chicago. Then I wouldnt have 2 drive 2 Antioc and take Metra to work, or any of the other ideas I have on commuting to work.

COMMON EVERYONE LOOK DEEP INTO THOSE SOFAS, spare change in your car, anything. Lets get commuter goin here and have it connect to Antioch buy the end of the month ~another dream~.

Seriously though I really hope that this talk doesnt die out again and it becomes a reality. I think it is about time we implement commuter service from Milwaukee to Chicago and possibly Madison.

IF anything I mentioned is wrong about the past please let me know Im kind of goin off the top of my head.

DON

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

QUOTE: Originally posted by up829

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

All of this just proves my point that Milwaukee is about to become another Chicago suburb, just like Kenosha and Racine. [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D]

Because of the large number of people moving to Kenosha from Illinois recently, it is beginning to feel like a suburb of Chicago (and this is NOT a good thing). Racine is still mostly influenced by Milwaukee, although I suppose that will change someday as well. A market research firm reported a few years ago that there are over 10,000,000 people within 75 miles of Kenosha.

Much of Kenosha & Walworth counties have historically been more closely tied to Chicago than Milwaukee. The Geneva Lakes area in particular is where the upper & upper middle class from Chicago built their summer homes and both the CNW and Milwaukee ran service from Chicago to many parts of the area. In the days before cars, the really well-off would have their servants pick them up in steam powered boats. I forget the old name of the lake, but just east of that area was a resort area for middle class blacks. I'm less familiar with Milwaukee history and development, but I believe Milwaukee residents summered to the north and west of the city in places like Green Lake, Elkhart Lake.

The central and western part of Kenosha county is booming as well, but many of these people work in Chicago's north and northwest suburbs, some commuting as far south as Schamburg. Extending Metra service on the other old C&NW and Milwaukee lines might serve these people better than trying to funnel everyone down the Kenosha line to downtown Chicago, altough I'm sure there's a need for that too.

The growth of Kenosha county that you refered to is one of the main reasons Metra put passenger service on the CN line from Antioch to Chicago.

Houses around here are popping up like mushrooms all over the place. BIG houses. Big, boring houses. And few of them with curtains or furniture, as the owners have so little cash left after purchasing these 3000 sq. ft. boxes. And there are many more being built as we speak, many of which you can have for a "mere" US$350,000.

With the continued growth of counties like Waukesha (west of Milwaukee; home of Trains magazine), I wonder if there could be a market to run trains on the CN from Chicago to Waukesha, in addition to the trains to downtown Milwaukee. I know it has been mentioned to run trains north of Antioch to Silver Lake in Kenosha county, and the idea of running further north to Burlington was also discussed.

Z
You think $350K is expensive[?][?][?]

Ya needs to come out here ol' son' and go a house huntin'...

$350K is bargain basement in the part of town where bars on the windows is not a stylish spanish accent!

Or you might find a plain cracker box way out in the desert for $350K

the AVERAGE price for a new home out here is $500K plus!.
And thats for nothing really special!


Yet people keep moving here and buying them, with what I dunno!

Personally I think there all smoking

anyway over, back to topic[:D]

This looks like a job for

Colorado Railcar!!!!!

[ndbprr]

I hate to be the pessimist because I don't think it will never happen. For trains to be ridden - particularly commuter trains they need to be fast, frequent and go where the people want to go. Miss any one of the three and it won;t work. I just can not envision anyone taking a train to Milwaukee or Racine. Then jumping on a train to donwtown Chicago and then a train to the burbs where the majority of jobs are now and then a cab or bus to the final destination. that shouldn't take more than four or five hours to complete the trip and then the same thing to get home again for probably the same cost as gas at $10.00 a gallon. No business person can live with a drop in productivity or flexibility like that. Trains are a 19th century solution to a 21st century dilemma unfortunately. We need to recognize that they are outdated technology in a just in time world of business.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The existing Amtrak service between Chicago and Milwaukee is already pretty much an express operation, with stops only at Glenview, Sturtevant/Racine and Mitchell Field. Seven round trips Mo-Sa and six on Sunday isn't too bad. Timings run around 1:30. Frequency could be improved, but I'm not sure how far a reduction in timing would help since the distances are pretty short, 85 miles end-to-end.

Metra service beyond Antioch and Kenosha is highly unlikely without any assistance from the State of Wisconsin and may require changes to the RTA statute in Illinois, so don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.

A Kenosha-Milwaukee local service on the former C&NW passenger line may be feasible if a Wisconsin agency is willing to step forward.

[wallyworld]

Time is valued but at what premium? I live in Antioch and used to commute to an office in Chicago. It was as black as pitch when I arrived at the station to get to the office on time. The train was a gently swaying slow boat to China. I would have paid more for a faster ride so I could leave later. More trains on s skip stop would have been an ideal arrangement. We all slept coming and going, never seeing daylight in either direction.
During this time I wrote an article for Trains that was submitted but while received a good review was not published. It began with a description of a statue that stood in front of a Skokie Valley station on the late, great North Shore Line. It was the figure of a herald holding a tablet that posed the question; "Have you ever traveled eighty miles per hour?" That was well over a half century ago. Ah, progress!

[zardoz]

vsmith,

Yeah, Vic, I know what you mean. I think the housing prices in most communities reflect the wages of the area (or is it the other way around?). And in central Wisconsin you can get a nice place for less than $90K!

The influx of Illinois money into Kenosha county has really boosted the value of my house (literally doubled in value in the last 12 years!), which will be great when I sell, but for now the property taxes take quite a bite.

[Paul Milenkovic]

The Amtrak Hiawatha service is scheduled for 1 Hr 36 Min. I ran some simple computer simulations on the published Amtrak schedule making assumptions regarding braking, the weight of the consist, adhesion, HP of the Genesis Diesel.

What I came up with is that given the 79 MPH FRA limit, they are accelerating, running flat out, and then braking to make their schedule between Glenview-Racine and between Racine-Airport. Between Chicago Union station and Glenview as well as between Airport and Milwaukee station, the schedule indicates substantial speed restrictions.

Assuming that they would boost the limit to 110 MPH between Glenview and Airport but have to live with the speed restrictions at the two ends, and assuming a somewhat lighter train (Talgo?) along with higher braking rates, I came up with something like 1 Hr 15 min while I was told the WisDOT study suggested something like 1 Hr 10 min.

The somewhat higher speed doesn't buy you all that much when you consider acceleration, braking, and the speed restrictions in downtown terminal areas. The Acela train, in addition to the 150 MPH top speed in limited areas has banking (not that big a deal in the Midwest I suppose), enormous amounts of electrically-supplied HP, and big brakes (yes, those infamous brakes -- they get stressed pretty hard to maintain their schedules). The truly high-speed Japanese trains are express trains that are not stopping at Glenview, Racine, Airport either.

What I am wondering is if there are some engineering tradeoffs between higher top speed and say putting faster trackwork in the terminal areas (higher-numbered turnouts? crossovers?).

[Anonymous]

Speaking of MU's, didn't the Trinity Rail Express (Dallas - Ft Worth) start out by using RDC's?

[n012944]

"Speaking of MU's, didn't the Trinity Rail Express (Dallas - Ft Worth) start out by using RDC's?"


Yes they did

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by METRO

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

Im guessing your not talking about BUDD RDC cars, because they are ancient!

Tell that to the Canadians haha. Cheers!
~METRO

Just wait two years.
VIA Rail will be buying a large fleet of Superliners at scrap prices !
[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[daveklepper]

Not with the New Orleans evacuation plan in hand!

[jeaton]

Paul M. You are correct that it is very hard to significantly shorten schedule time just by upping speed limits from the present 79mph to 100 or even 110. However, You could probably refigure by upping the speed limits as far as Mayfair or even Western Avenue and get a few more minutes. Maybe that is the source of the 70 minute goal.

The present running time of 96 minutes has to beat drive time almost always, except maybe for the driver who has a glove compartment full of speeding tickets. Still, if the running time was an hour or less, the trains would be SRO. For Chicago commuters 60 minutes is acceptable, but 61 minutes is considered to long, unless the commuter has relocated from southern California.

I know that the MILW had passenger running times at 85 minutes in the years just before Amtrak. I don't know if they ever advertised faster times, but long ago passenger speed limit signs at the EJ&E crossing at Rondout, "reduce speed to 100MPH" suggests that may have been possible. My thinking is that the cost of getting run times below 80 or 85 minutes may just not be reasonable from an economic standpoint.

Jay

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

I hate to be the pessimist because I don't think it will never happen. For trains to be ridden - particularly commuter trains they need to be fast, frequent and go where the people want to go. Miss any one of the three and it won;t work. I just can not envision anyone taking a train to Milwaukee or Racine. Then jumping on a train to donwtown Chicago and then a train to the burbs where the majority of jobs are now and then a cab or bus to the final destination. that shouldn't take more than four or five hours to complete the trip and then the same thing to get home again for probably the same cost as gas at $10.00 a gallon. No business person can live with a drop in productivity or flexibility like that. Trains are a 19th century solution to a 21st century dilemma unfortunately. We need to recognize that they are outdated technology in a just in time world of business.

It is not an either /or proposition. If you have to drive in the Chicago area you should be happy that the 150,000 Metra daily riders are not out on the highways you have to use to get around. If it were not for public transit in the Chicago area, $10 gas could be the going price with half of it going for the taxes to build streets and highways so that the drive time might stay a little less than 4 hours.