Railroad "Cop" in Action

[Anonymous]

I blame them all the rail fans were stupid and I think were looking for a fight, something to video tape and show to the world of how mean and bad the cop was to "average rail fans" and the cop was stupid for not identifying himself from the get go. and then letting himself getting suckered in to it and making it confrontational. if he had been professional, polite and courteous from the start this video would have nothing to show and would have never made it on the web. I got out of the security field because to many of my coworkers thought I have a badge I am above every one else and I can bully every one now. and I got so sick and tired of seeing that s***. I worked in some of the worst areas of Chicago and never had any trouble. From the start I made sure they knew who and what I was. I treated them as equals I acted professionally and I was polite with them. only when they got physical with me or physically threatened me did I change and throw my weight around. But 99% of the time it never came to that

[Anonymous]

Hey Ken!
Yeah, we talked on the phone once, remember? It was a while ago, but I recall you were at Dairyland Greyhound Park at the time. Oh yes, I did manage to sneak in a picture of a 4-6-0 in the Greyhound Review. It was a shot of Washington, Idaho & Montana No. 1 sitting in Potlatch, Idaho. Wasn't that cool?!?!? BTW - I'm the editor of the Milwest Dispatch and in the April 2006 issue, I ran a shot with my retired girl Tooile in it.

I was thinking, next time we're in Abilene for Nationals, we can run a train slide show in the Hall of Fame's basement. LOL

-Ryan

[greyhounds]

So, are you the same "Ryan" who wrote "Box to Wire". I want the book!

If you are, I certainly noticed your reference to the Milwaukee Road in the "Greyhound Review" and I was amazed to see a picture of a Milwaukee steamer in a dog magazine.

I was also amazed to learn the Greyhound track at Post Falls, ID was built on ex-MILW property.

Got to love anything that runs on a track! ('ceptin' a horse. I don't care much for horses.)

[Anonymous]

Like a lot of folks here, I too am a life long railfan and modeler. Over the years (about 1981 on) I've been on railroad property more times than I can remember. That said, my habits at trackside somewhat changed after the BNSF merger and again after 9/11, that time I habits drastically changed. Actually, I model the abandoned Milwaukee Road in Eastern Washington largely to avoid class 1 photography issues and that's worked out pretty well for me.

Now, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone but rather, I'm making a general statement -- A reason some railfans get into trouble stems from an engrained sense of genuine entitlement to be able to stand next to the tracks at take pictures as they always have in the past. This is something I've never seen anyone talk about before, but it's an issue! Oh yeah, it's an issue!

Once again, I'm not directly commenting about the video, just saying -- I've been stopped three times in the past 10 years. Once by a BNSF cop in Pasco, Washington (1996), once by a St. Maries, Idaho policeman while I was measuring a speeder shed (2005), and just recently, a Salem, Oregon policeman while waiting for the Coast Starlight. All three times, I was civil and friendly as could be and guess what I got in return? True, you can be civil to someone and still get jacked, railroaders can be genuine hard asses and some even go so far to hold a general contemp for everyone around them, railfans especially. But you certainly might help yourself by playing nice. If you do get challenged, well, that's when you take one for the team -- Unless your on public property of course. Incidentally, the officer in St. Maries became more interested in my two retired racing Greyhounds in the back seat of my Corolla than my weird desire to measure an old speeder shed, then again the STMA isn't a BNSF or a NS by any stretch of the imagination.

Still, had that been me you all saw in the video, you would have seen something different...

-Ryan

Disclaimer, Yes, I've worked for a railroad in the past.

[CMSTPP]

Those guys are 100 feet from the tracks???? Why in the world would that guy care. They are not even close to trespassing.
The second reason I don't think this is real is that the men are standing on a road which is usually owned by the state, NOT THE RAILROAD. That police officer is doing the wrong thing if he's even real. Those guys are not trespassing. Plus the guy said there were no trespassing signs.

James

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Barber-truck1

QUOTE: Originally posted by cspmo

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

I didnt see any "official" markings on the vehicle, so my bet is that the movie was not edited, but STAGED and shot in 2-3 different scenes.

That's what I think too.

FWIW - I don't think so. There are one red - one ble light in the grille.

I'm in Ohio - but those would get you stopped - just to see who you are - ven if they were off.

I agree the "cop" should also ID himself.

RE: Having to show ID is that an Ill law? Ohio is trying to enact one that would require photo ID to get INTO certain transportation sites - ACLU has alredy vowed to fight it. I don't think we aqre at the level yet where we have to show "papers" just to breathe.

I understand it's nationwide (Gabe, you want to offer a professional free legal opinion?).

You don't have to "show" ID - and I didn't say you have to "show" ID. You have to "provide" ID (Gabe, am I wrong?) You have to tell them who you are. And don't lie. Martha Stewart went to prison for six months on a charge of lying to investigators.

If you're on railroad property without permission, a ticket, or in an area normally accessable to the public, such as a train station, you're wrong. If a railroad employee shows up just cooperate and leave.

Check out the thread on the two little girls being run over by Amtrak - and their parents suing Amtrak. This isn't a game. The public, including we railfans, doesn't belong on railroad property.

On final note. Even if that guy is a railroad cop, he is still a Chicago railroad cop. Chicago police don't take no crap off nobody. A while back they threw the two daughters of the Minnesota Attoney General in the slammer. According to reports, one of the women was intoxicated and was ejected from a club on Rush Street. She raised a fuss with club security and the cops were summoned. A Chicago Police Officer found himself wresteling with and aledgedly intoxicated woman at about 3:00AM. It didn't matter one bit if her daddy was the attorney general in St. Paul, both those women spent the night in a cell - and had a few bruises. (The woman in the wresteling match reportedly told the cop: "I've got rights". His reported response: "Not right now b***h!").

And, again, according to reports, those women were using the line "Do you know who my father is?"

If they'll do that to the daughters of the Minnesota Attorney General, those railfans are lucky they didn't "fall down real hard". I'm not being critical of the police, I've never had a problem with a Chicago cop. (Or a railroad cop in adulthood) Of course, I avoide public intoxication and trespassing.

The cops aren't playing a game or enjoying a hobby. We are.

[fjcaron]

The original poster didn't like my comments, but I wasn't sugar coating anything either. We have all tresspassed at one point or another in our railfanning/photography endeavors, we have all gotten caught too, take your lumps and move on with life. To provoke something out of nothing was simply out of line, just pack up and move on was the best thing to have done.

The video was edited, there's no doubt about that as you can tell from the movement of the trains and the breaks in the audio, when the officer got out of his SUV, I was sure the next scene would be one or both in braclets. I also made mention that any RR employee has the right to question a persons presence in an area in which they don't belong, to advise them to leave and or call for someone to remove them.

With all the heightened awareness on the RR's these days, with all the bulletins out advising crews to report folks tresspassing or those who look suspicious, the employees are only doing their jobs. One thing some don't realize about RR cops is they deal with some low life scum of the earth, moreso than your average city cop deals with, so of course their level of tolerance isn't the same as other law enforcement types. Additionally they are covering a much wider area.

The webmaster at RR Forums pulled the plug too soon, because all you had was folks supporting the view of the railfans in the video, then you had the RR folks who started getting wind of this and posting their comments, and others who were interjecting some common sense.

Sometimes the truth hurts,

Frank

QUOTE: Originally posted by Harry_Runyon


The webmaster over there got a little over zealous and chose to pull the plug on the discussion when it appeared that there was an opposing view other than just that of irate railfans.

[Anonymous]

Here is the original post (from another forum site) from the person who supposedly took this video:

http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12985

The webmaster over there got a little over zealous and chose to pull the plug on the discussion when it appeared that there was an opposing view other than just that of irate railfans.

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

I didnt see any "official" markings on the vehicle, so my bet is that the movie was not edited, but STAGED and shot in 2-3 different scenes.

That is what the BNSF police up here use, unmarked white Ford Explorers with multiple antennae. But from my viewing, it looks like the front license plate number has been edited/blurred intentionally. Anyone else see this?

Also, what makes me suspicious is the video shows a run time of 3:27, but mine ends almost a minute short of that. Why is that?

I know a BNSF security agent. I'll ask him if he knows anything about this video. I can send it to him, too, if necessary. He may know the individual driving the Explorer. I also wonder if this is how BNSF wants its security people to interface with members of the public who appear to be railfans. Assuming the guy is really BNSF security.

Let's not ru***o any conclusions. It may be a scam.

[CNW 6000]

Best comment I've heard so far is the one about professionalism. Assuming that cop was real, and the editing/staging/whatever...it's not one contiguous piece of film, and he did ask for ID politely which we don't know he wasn't very professional. It may his job to deal with that kind of BS attitude but he should have training to help him deal with it. I'm a Lifeguard and I have had that kind of training! Plus if these people were that bad I'd have called for backup even if from the local PD. Debating infractions isn't productive or conducive to accomplishing your task.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cspmo

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

I didnt see any "official" markings on the vehicle, so my bet is that the movie was not edited, but STAGED and shot in 2-3 different scenes.

That's what I think too.

FWIW - I don't think so. There are one red - one ble light in the grille.

I'm in Ohio - but those would get you stopped - just to see who you are - ven if they were off.

I agree the "cop" should also ID himself.

RE: Having to show ID is that an Ill law? Ohio is trying to enact one that would require photo ID to get INTO certain transportation sites - ACLU has alredy vowed to fight it. I don't think we aqre at the level yet where we have to show "papers" just to breathe.

[88gta350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Safety Valve

I thought the vehicle had a pair of lights hidden behind the grill. I gotta review the tape and break it down to see if there are indeed lights installed on it.

I do recall he drove directly at the camera destroying any train shooting on purpose. I find that to be quite offensive... but he is a cop and they were trespassing.

The vehicle did have lights in the grill, but you can buy those anywhere. The vehicle had no other markings on it and the "cop" was in plain clothes. The railfans had every right to question who he was and who is was with. Assuming it is a real cop and not n imposter getting his jollies by hassling people, then he has every right to stop and question the picture-takers, but he could have handled that much, much better. We just have to remember that egos collide sometimes and pride gets in the way, people have bad days and get in sour moods. The "cop" should have identified himself when asked, and by saying "Railroad police" rather than "BNSF police" or some other such thing, combined with the unmarked car and plain clothes tells me he might just be some joker hasselling people. Either that or he needs to work on his professionalism. The guys weren't out killing anyone, they're just taking some videos.

If it had been me who was approached by this "cop" and he didn't adequetely ID himself, I would have dialed 911 or the Railroad emergency number if I knew it, and asked the dispatcher to verify for me that I was speaking to an actual police officer. Too many fakers out there these days.

I guess I should also say that since the video was obviously edited, it's hard to say for sure what happened. The cop could have ID'd himself in the editied parts. My guess is this was edited to make the cop look bad. He could have went on for 20 minutes trying to get the guys to show ID, and we wouldn't know it.

[Anonymous]

I thought the vehicle had a pair of lights hidden behind the grill. I gotta review the tape and break it down to see if there are indeed lights installed on it.

I do recall he drove directly at the camera destroying any train shooting on purpose. I find that to be quite offensive... but he is a cop and they were trespassing.

[Anonymous]

It seems to me that people are defending the railfans because the cop got way to angry, way to fast. But you have to think of the big picture here, this guy probably deals with this crap all the time, its his job. He has to deal with asshats everyday trying to tell him whatever they are doing, no matter what, is ok. Its not like he gets people coming up to him everyday saying*** like "hey, you do a great job, you are really really helpful" not likely. "hey, get to this side of the city, there is someone doing something illegal," then before he's even done "hey, get back to the other side of the city, i'm putting it on the railfans 100%

[cspmo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

I didnt see any "official" markings on the vehicle, so my bet is that the movie was not edited, but STAGED and shot in 2-3 different scenes.

That's what I think too.

[coborn35]

Basically two jerk railfans trying to make the railroads look worse than they are and trying to stir up bad feelings towards them.

[coborn35]

I didnt see any "official" markings on the vehicle, so my bet is that the movie was not edited, but STAGED and shot in 2-3 different scenes.

[Anonymous]

If you listen real carefully on that video, the father even begins to admit that he was tresspassing. He even stifled the dreaded "T" word in front of the policeman.

That fan did not seem to be the brightest person.

Personally, I think the policeman did what he had to do, and the "father fanner" developed a confrontational attitude.

Your opinion(s)?

[miniwyo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by OneSecondPle

I think it is ignorant to think the cop overstepped his bounds.

By overstepping his bounds I mean that he just started in on talking about them going to jail without even talk of leaving first. there are better ways to dispose of the situation. Yes the guys were trespassing, and faild the identify themselves, however he was just being plain ugly to them from the get go. I would have drove up and politely said. "I'm sorrry, but you are on private property. Would you please leave immediatly." And then made sure that they did leave. The men offerend to leave later on in the incident but the RR cop kept takling. I just think the the whole situation could have been handled a little better than this. Yes the men trespassed and were also beind ingorant and the RR cop had every right to do that. But not be just plain nasty to them. That ios what is wrong with mots of people in our world today, lots of people are not polite to others anymore. I do also think that this tape has been edited, notice that a coal triain just magically appears. As well as before that some red containers turn into blue ones. So maybe I jumped to a conclusion and it would have been better see the whole story before doing so.

[Anonymous]

Im convinced the tape has been butchered for whatever reason.

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE:
These guys are trespassing on railroad property. They have no right to do that. They keep saying "There's no sign". Ef Them. There are no signs around my yard. That doesn't mean you can come into may yard and set up to take picutes.

They resisted providing identification. You have to do that. You have to give a peace officer your ID in some form. You just have to tell him/her your name, but you have to identify yourself.

They are not the first railfans to visit this place, which is Brighton Park Crossing in Chicago. This well-respected website highlights the area and provides directions and instructions:

http://www.dhke.com/CRJ/brighton.html

To balance what's being said, I also think the police officer should have been willing to display some sort of credential, which he refused. Instead, he got surly, real quick. Perhaps you have to show a peace officer some ID, but how can they be sure he's a peace officer? Just because he acts like one? What you got is a place with no signs and a guy with no badge. It could have been handled better by both sides. And his statement that the state of Illinois just passed a law that signs aren't necessary, well, I'll check with the BNSF police. That's a new one on me, and I follow this kind of stuff. Remember, in Chicago a year ago two Metra Police officers told two railfans that it was against Federal Law to stand on a station platform and take pictures, and that the Homeland Security Act superceded the U.S. Constitution.... read on.

But I would also like to know the date the video was recorded.

QUOTE: From TRAINS magazine, by Don Phillips, syndicated columnist.

Stupidity, ignorance, and the power of fear

Chicago railfans are terrorists? Give me a break.

If you're a regular reader, you know that I seldom use nasty language, nor do I openly express anger. I try to be reasoned, even when occasionally the subject warrants anger. This month, forget that. If you don't want to read an angry Phillips column, complete with profanity, then stop reading now.

But I am angry. I am ***ed angry. And it was TRAINS Magazine that made me angry. I picked up the April issue of TRAINS, and I simply could not, and still cannot, believe what I saw on page 26. To my old friend Kevin Keefe and my new friend Jim Wrinn, say it ain't so, guys. This is an April Fool's joke, right? I mean, it was the April issue. We should laugh, right? I fear not.

To those of you who may not know what I'm talking about, two railfans - Paul Burgess and Randy Olson - were attempting to take photos of a rare Metra commuter diesel on a very cold Jan. 8 in Morton Grove, Ill., when they were approached by local cops. They asked some questions and searched the fans' truck with permission. Nothing wrong so far, even though they were taking the photos from public property and had every right to do so. But then things started to go badly wrong. Then Morton Grove cops told Burgess and Olson they would have to wait for the Metra police. Huh? Well they seemed to have no choice at the time. The Metra police showed up and did their own search and background check, contacting the Joint Terrorism Task Force. Under normal circumstances this might be considered mostly comical. Two railfan terrorists? I've known a few railfans who might fit that description. But listen to the conversation that followed. Read this carefully: The Metra cop said, according to Burgess and Olson, "Gentleman, you ought to know better. Due to heightened security, photography of trains, planes, highway traffic, and boat traffic is now illegal. You cannot do this. It's against the law." Burgess said, "I politely, but firmly, asked the officer for clarification and even told him we had First Amendment rights under the Constitution." According to Burgess, the cop replied, "These laws supercede the Constitution. Photography of trains is illegal." Excuse me?? There's more. The cops told the two that if the task force ordered, their film could be confiscated. Olson said he told the cop, "No way. If the film goes, we're going with it." Good for them. As one might expect, the background check found they weren't terrorists, but the cop warned them never to take pictures of trains again, even from public property.

The two didn't leave it there, fortunately. They got on the Internet. By Monday, Metra officials had heard about it. And a week later, the Chicago Tribune splashed the story on Page One. Good for the Tribune. One of the jobs of journalists is to turn over rocks and watch the roaches run. Metra announced that its photography policy was that anyone can take photos of their trains from public property. Only when they become a safety threat to themselves or others will they be "reprimanded." This was Metra's word: reprimanded, not arrested or have their film confiscated.

But go back to what the Metra cop said: A local law can "supercede" the Constitution? That may be one of the most ignorant pieces of drivel I've ever heard. Did that idiot ever go to school? Did his school teach the Constitution? Could he read when he got out of high school? Worse, who in the heirarchy above him gave him the idea that the Constitution is meaningless? Better yet, who told him we couldn't take pictures of trains, planes, cars, and boats from public property? What has happened to our country? Are we so frightened by a terrorist attack that we must threaten our own freedoms in the name of safety? I've come to expect stupidity from some (but certainly not all) small-town cops whose main job is to run speed traps. But this was Chicago, the nation's third-largest city. One expects local cops to have at least a basic education.

I've been a reporter for 35 years, and I've seen my share of cops. I've been threatened with arrest many times, but I've never been arrested. Part of that clean record is just luck. Part of it was cooler (and more senior) heads prevailing. Most of those threats were in the South during the civil rights era, but there've been a few since then. BUT, truth be told, most of the cops I've known are pretty good. I've seen some cops have bad days, and I've even seen whole police forces have bad days. (Have you read about the Chicago Democratic convention of 1968?) In the end, someone has to control the bad ones. That's what Olson, Burgess, and the Chicago Tribune did. Good for them. The lamp burns a little brighter tonight.

[Anonymous]

Ha! What a joke. People think they have the right to do whatever just because there's no signs. Obviously if you've seen no trespassing signs in a similar setting...alongside railroad tracks and so forth...and brought it up then one would logically assume that the same would apply most everywhere.

I used to work with a guy who was big into hunting. He'd ask me if he could hunt on our property, out in the cornfields later on in the fall. When I said no he got allll pissed off going on and on about how the fields weren't being used anymore and farmers were all just a bunch of dickheads because they wouldn't let guys hunt on their fields. I tried to explain to him about the idea of how it's our property and about all the liability issues nowadays...didn't want it, don't need the trouble. I still hear about it from time to time.

[CNW 6000]

Agreed x 3...looks like these guys were trying to stir things up.

Looks like the video was edited at least 2x. I saw two times for sure when the images in the back jumped (of the trains) and possibly a third.

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by OneSecondPle

I think it is ignorant to think the cop overstepped his bounds. Anybody, even us railfans, pose a threat in the eyes of the railroad, which is totally understandable. They are moving freight, many hazardous loads at that, across the country. n my opinon, they have every right to show their power and do what it takes to get people they believe to be a threat away from them.

Those guys were being very ignorant. I dont believe the cop would have been as overpowering if they had just obligued.

Agree!

I'm convinced that video has been edited. And I can view it just fine.

Watch the stack train going one way then a coal/hopper train goes the other way. Watch how the second train's locos just jump into the picture. What was taken out? What didn't the poster/photographer want us to see or hear?

These guys are trespassing on railroad property. They have no right to do that. They keep saying "There's no sign". Ef Them. There are no signs around my yard. That doesn't mean you can come into my yard and set up to take picutes.

They resisted providing identification. You have to do that. You have to give a peace officer your ID in some form. You just have to tell him/her your name, but you have to identify yourself.

I've been a railfan for over 50 years. I've had one encounter with railroad security. When I was about 14 I rode an IC fan trip to Havana, IL. At Havana my friend and I climbed up on top of a boxcar. An IC officer came over and told us "you better get down from there before you hurt youselves". We did. And that was the end of that.

Latter, when I went to work for the ICG I got to know some people from our police. They were very professional people. Railroad police have a very important job. They make mistakes and they're not saints. But stay off the property, even if there are "no signs", show ID when asked - you won't have any problems, I certainly don't.

I work right in the middle of the CP and CN lines leading north from Chicago. Now that the weather is nice on my lunch hour I'll go get a sandwich, chips, and a diet Coke. Then I'll drive next to one of the lines. I usually get to watch a train go by.

I don't have any problems. But if I went seeking problems, as this photographer did, I could find them.

Ken Strawbridge

[Anonymous]

I think it is ignorant to think the cop overstepped his bounds. Anybody, even us railfans, pose a threat in the eyes of the railroad, which is totally understandable. They are moving freight, many hazardous loads at that, across the country. n my opinon, they have every right to show their power and do what it takes to get people they believe to be a threat away from them.

Those guys were being very ignorant. I dont believe the cop would have been as overpowering if they had just obligued.

[miniwyo]

it downloaded for me. That is nuts. some powerhungry RR cop overstepping his bounds. I swear if somthing like that happened to me i would tell that guy so shove it up his rear and then I would leave. That guy needs kicked in the teeth for his stupidity. I think that if you are enjoying a hobby, and doing it safley, then there should be no problem with it. Railfans could be used to thier advantage when it comes to spotting things that the RR needs to know about. I saw a pair of locos go by me about a month ago and the front door of the 2nd loco was open. I happend to spot a RR worker coming down the street in his hyrailer so I flagged him down and told him, he immediatly got on the radio and informed someone and thanked me for reporting it.

Oh and bnsfcoal, 1 slight geologic inaccuracy in your signature. Diamonds no not come from coal. They come from kimberlite.

[tree68]

Using just the .com URL gives a directory with a "suspended link" as of late on the fifth.

[Anonymous]

Well that link of yours is a dud.

[Anonymous]

Tell us about your link.[{(-_-)}]

[Anonymous]

We
ll heck...the link went dead......


Let me see what I can do......