"Hog Law" Question...

[Anonymous]

Mention was made on another thread about crews hitting their twelve hours while still out on the road. Of course, this means tying the train down "where is, as is".[xx(]

I had read some old-time accounts about crews being told to "take their rest" on the train in a siding (specifically, Wiley Bryan's article about the old Seabord Air Line in Virginia during WW2 in Februry 1974 "TRAINS). I assume this is no longer permitted?

In any event, what happens if a crew ties up at a remote siding without easy access to van transportation - and how do they bring out a new crew? Perhap via a following train, or hi-rail equipment?

I also presume the crew gets paid an hourly rate ( and perhaps overtime) for all of this?

[oltmannd]

Generally, the dispatcher won't let a train go dead where they can't get to it with a relief crew. Rest only counts where there is a place to sleep and food, so you can't take rest in a locomotive cab or crew van.

[Dutchrailnut]

For official rules on Hog law or Hours of Service law see:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_05/49cfr228_05.html

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mrsheep


In any event, what happens if a crew ties up at a remote siding without easy access to van transportation - and how do they bring out a new crew? Perhap via a following train, or hi-rail equipment?

I also presume the crew gets paid an hourly rate ( and perhaps overtime) for all of this?

When crews are forced to tie up in inaccessable locations, they are removed and/or returned to the location by rail, normally be deadheading on a passing train, although on occasions MofW high-rail equipment is used. While the crews are relieved of responsibility for their train, they remain on pay until they mark off at their designated final destination rest point. If they are tied up at an intermediate location rest facility, they remain on pay while resting until they finally mark off at their destination or origin terminal. The National UTU/BLE agreements only recognize origin and destination terminals as releasing personnel from pay.

[trainfan1221]

Don't they have to stop where they are no matter what, as long as they are not blocking a grade crossing?

[Dutchrailnut]

Nope a dispatcher can order a crew to continou to a siding or yard but by doing so the railroad takes the fine, its the railroads obligation to get a train to siding or yard before they outlaw but it can sometimes not be avoided in emergencies.
every and any rulebook has provisions covering this.
Uless they are told by the governing authority to do so however , otherwise yes they put on handbrakes and secure the train .
If a crew is ordered to exceed the HOS the railroad has to report this fact to FRA within 30 days and give reason why and how the cercomstaces arose.
see:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/49cfr228.19.htm

[oldyardgoat]

My last trip on Amtrak's Coast Starlate back in December, '87, the train was four hours late out of Oakland on the SP.
At 7:30am, between Weed and Dorris, CA, the train came to a stop in the middle of nowhere; no siding, nothing. We sat there for 40 minutes waiting for the "taxi" come out from Kalmath Falls, Ore. We were six hours late into "Skeedaddle".
My main thought was that back when the "hog law" was 16 hours, and the railroads operated their own passenger trains, things were done differently. Ahh, the joys of government control.
The good part was that I got to see the Shasta country north of Redding at 6AM, two days after Christmas, with falling snow--a Christmas card in motion. Nice.

[garyla]

I was a passenger on the NRHS convention excursion train headed for Portland last July. Our last crew had gone on duty around noon near Eugene, and at about 11:30 PM the mighty UP was still struggling to get us a clear track into Portand Union Station.

According to a fellow passenger, someone cell-phoned the Uncle Pete's dispatcher and reminded him that our crew was just about to die on the law, right out on the main. That part may or may not have been true, but, in our crew's last half-hour of legal duty, the dispatcher miraculously found a way to give us some green boards, and we really hustled for the last 10 or 15 miles, making it into the terminal at about 11:55 PM. It was amusing to see a supposedly clogged main line suddenly part like the Red Sea parting for Moses!

The Union Pacific (America's favorite railroad these days, right?) certainly isn't afraid of creating bad publicity for itself, but abandoning a trainload of railfans (many elderly) in the middle of the night was maybe too much bad p.r. even for the Lords of Omaha.

[Bob-Fryml]

Just to add a few facts to this thread, the 16-hour law "died" on 12/31/70. The 14-hour law "died" on 12/31/71, and today's 12-hour law started 01/01/72.

Consider this too: according to the F.R.A. stopping a train with the independent brakes applied, a 20-psi brake pipe reduction applied, and no handbrakes applied is considered "Attending to the Train." Los Federales consider "Attending to the Train" as being "Covered Service," i.e., Hours of Service work. The train has to be stopped and secured with sufficient handbrakes before a crew's 12-hours is up in order to stay legal with the federal government.

[zwspnby9]

How long are the districts where crews "die"?

[Dutchrailnut]

I have seen crews die on hog law on a 12 mile branch.
It does not realy matter how long the district is, its how the dispatcher keeps things moving.

[ValleyX]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml

Just to add a few facts to this thread, the 16-hour law "died" on 12/31/70. The 14-hour law "died" on 12/31/71, and today's 12-hour law started 01/01/72.

I believe you're one year off on your dates, the fourteen hour law was in effect in 1972, believe it ended on 12/31/72.

[Anonymous]

Actually, the 16 hour law was changed to 14 hours effective 12/26/70 and then to 12 hours on 12/26/72.

Virlon

[Anonymous]

When a crew realizes the hours of service law may catch them they are to begin discussions with their dispatcher to ascertain the most appropriate place to tie the train down with regard to accessability, grade crossings. In my experience the crew has always initiated this action, not the dispatcher.

[edblysard]

We went through this a few years ago when Houston was pretty deep in the weeds...the dispatchers were running crews up to the hours of service, then, after they had been on duty 12 hours, ordering them to move their train into a siding or a yard because it "was an emergency” or “dangerous” to leave it out on the main"
We would do so, but only under protest.
(“We” being the crews from the PTRA)
We contacted both the FRA and the Texas Railroad Commission, and each sent a field officer to observe.

It only took one run to solve the problem.

Both the FRA and the TRRC sent the same memo, word for word, to the main offices of the superintendents of both UP and BNSF, along with the KCS and the PTRA.
Slightly condensed, it reads...

In that there exist some confusion as to what constitutes an emergency situation, necessitating a crew to exceed the Federal hours of service law; Broken couplers, blocked grade crossings, both at grade and automobile crossings, blocked or fouled main lines, yard leads and or any tracks fouled (ect.) are not and do not fall under the concept of "acts of God" or constitute and "Emergency", in that all can be prevented or relieved by proper planning and forethought on the part of the carrier.
Therefore, unless a train presents a clear and present danger to the general public through a violation of one or more of the hazardous material rules, before a crew reaches its hours of service they will stop their train, the locomotive engineer will secure the locomotive(s) and the crew will secure the remaining portion of the train pursuant to that carriers rules and the GCOR, where is and as is.
Any fines for blocked crossings will be the sole responsibility of the carrier.
Further, it is recommended that the Superintendent and the Chief Operations officer of the Union pacific, BNSF, Kansas City Southern and its subsidiaries(the TexMex), and the General Manager and the Superintendent of the PTRA advise their dispatchers and yardmasters of this memo, and advise them of what, under Federal regulations, constitutes an "emergency".
Any further violations of the Federal Hours of Service Law will result in fines, incremental, until this matter is resolved.

I specifically asked the TRRC inspector what she considered an emergency...to wit...a derailment or accident where the presence of the original crew was required to attempt to save another persons life, or to move hazardous material cars to a point where they would not present a danger to the general public or other railroad employees, but only if another crew was not immediately available for such work...and moving a train so that no hazardous material cars were left under a bridge or overpass used by the general public, and or resting on a public crossing.
In other words, I could be ordered to leave a grain car blocking a street, but not a cyanide car....

She was also very clear on one other point...it is the crew responsibility to notify the dispatcher when they are getting close to the hours of service, and to advise the dispatcher if they, (the crew) do not believe that they can make a yard or siding in the time left.
I asked her for a set time to do this, and she gave me the "look"...and told me "you guys know your territory better than anyone else, and you guys know if you can make it in time...there is no “set time”, and you know that!"
(Hey, ya gotta try!)

Crew change locations and availability of crews are the sole responsibility of the carriers, and the TRRC and the FRA both state that with proper planning, there is no reason for any crew, with the rare exceptions mentioned above, to be ordered to work past the hours of service.

My advice to any of you new guys who are routinely ordered to work past the hours of service...do so, but make sure it is under protest, and when you tie up, call the field officer for the FRA in your area, and register a complaint.
Every single time.
A lot of the FRA guys are under the gun for not issuing fines, and are in job justification mode right now...I bet they would just love to hear from you right now...

Ed

[tree68]

What I hear on the scanner here leads me to believe that the DS is usually quite aware of who has how much time. Since I don't always hear both sides of conversations, I can't say that it's not because the crews keep the DS advised, but many of the jobs on this particular line start and finish within the purview of the same DS desk.

Like anyone playing a good game of chess, I figure the DS already has a game plan laid out with regard to who meets whom where, and who's gonna need a taxi.

[dej716]

The NS Lake Division Timetable rule LA-GR-8-1 states "All crews must notify the Train Dispatcher's Office when they have four hours left to work. At that time, the Train Dispatcher will confer with the Chief Train Dispatcher to determine if transportation should be arranged to take the crews to their terminal.
"If the Train Dispatcher has not notified the crew what arrangements have been made when the crews has two hours to work, the crew must again notify the Train Dispatcher of their remaining work time and ask what arrangements have been made to relieve them.
"It is the responsibility of each crew member to be sure that arrangements have been made for transportation to be available prior to the expiration of the hours of service."
Additionally, our train orders have a line saying that if we are stopped with 20 minutes remaining, we are to confirm with the dispatcher whether or not to tie the train down -- ie, we have 20 minutes to tie it down, or there is a relief crew coming to take it over without tying down.

[mikeyuhas]

Interesting discussion.

Some time ago I was out following a train. The crew reminded the dispatcher that they were going to die at a certain time, and advised they wouldn't be able to make the terminal before expiring. Their Cinderella hour arrived, and a couple minutes later they rang up the dispatcher again to tell him where they had secured the train... but over the radio in the background, one could clearly hear the sounds of a locomotive in motion!

[MP173]

Ed:


Thanks for your summary of the FRA's letter.

Hypothetically speaking...train goes dead and blocks a road crossing. Fire truck, ambulance, whatever is attempting to get thru the crossing.

Does the crew move the train? Does the emergency apply only to life threatening situations involving the train? or can it involve the train blocking a crossing?

It is always interesting to hear the conversation between dispatch and crew regarding the hog law and where to tie up. I hear the 4 hour and 2 hour notification here on the NS Lake Division.

ed

[edblysard]

ed,
If I am right there at the precise moment we die on the law, and I see a fire truck or ambulance headed our way...I am going to cut the crossing, or contact the dispatcher for premission to move the train.
I doubt the FRA or anyone else will object....
We also make every attempt to cut crossings, unless specificly ordered not to by either a officer of the carrier or the dispatcher....then we leave it blocked, but we do so under protest.

But most dispatchers know what will and will not fit between corssing on their turf, and because they are the guys that fade the heat first, they dont let themselves get in that position too often.

Finding trains blocking crossings with a hog law crew is the exception, not the rule.

Ed