How paranoid can you get?

[AztecEagle]

Which Reminds Me Of The Line From "V for Vendetta":"People Shouldn't Be Afraid of The Government.The Government Should Be Afraid Of The People.". Of Course,There's No real Difference Between A Conservative and a Liberal.Basic Difference Is If A Consertative LIke Tom DeLay Gets Caught With His Hand In The Cookie Jar,He Goes Back Home To His Constituents And Tells Them "It's Not My fault.I Didn't Do it.I'm Just A Victim Of The Liberal Media Bias To Destroy Family Values!!"and They Vote His Coooked @ss Right Back In!!If A Liberal Like Bill Clinton or Ted Kennedy Get Caught With Their Hands In The Cookie Jar,They Immediately Go Back Home And Tell Their Constituents"It's Not My Fault.I'm Just A Victim Of A Vast right Wing Conspiracy."And They vote Their Sorry Butts right Back In!! Thomas Jefferson and George Washington,Where Are You At when we Really need You??

[amtrakjackson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton

They overreacted big time. With the ERG and a list of placards symbols. Asphalt is 3257 and is not even listed as a flammable it is a 9 or Other Regulated Mataeril (sp) .

Exactly- you'd think that someone would have checked that out. I keep a current ERG in my car all the time, mostly because I'm curious as to what commodities are rolling out there.

Ian

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AztecEagle

Which Reminds Me Of The Line From "V for Vendetta":"People Shouldn't Be Afraid of The Government.The Government Should Be Afraid Of The People.". Of Course,There's No real Difference Between A Conservative and a Liberal.Basic Difference Is If A Consertative LIke Tom DeLay Gets Caught With His Hand In The Cookie Jar,He Goes Back Home To His Constituents And Tells Them "It's Not My fault.I Didn't Do it.I'm Just A Victim Of The Liberal Media Bias To Destroy Family Values!!"and They Vote His Coooked @ss Right Back In!!If A Liberal Like Bill Clinton or Ted Kennedy Get Caught With Their Hands In The Cookie Jar,They Immediately Go Back Home And Tell Their Constituents"It's Not My Fault.I'm Just A Victim Of A Vast right Wing Conspiracy."And They vote Their Sorry Butts right Back In!! Thomas Jefferson and George Washington,Where Are You At when we Really need You??

Another wonderful exposition of the truth. I wholeheartedly agree.

[MichaelSol]

In this instance, the Montana Highway Patrol called the alleged 24 hour "hotline" to check on the report; since they otherwise have no way of "guessing" what's hazardous or not.

No one answered the phone.

So, since there was obviously something coming off of the tank car, the MHP took the obvious precautions until MRL would answer the phone.

[CNW 6000]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

You would think that a state trooper (or highway patroll) would have enough common sense to not over react.

IMHO they're no better off in the common sense department than many other people. Sure they tend to do better but they ARE human. You don't buy the CYA theory? Yours never been "in a sling"? Must be nice!

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by braund91

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

You would think that a state trooper (or highway patroll) would have enough common sense to not over react.

IMHO they're no better off in the common sense department than many other people. Sure they tend to do better but they ARE human. You don't buy the CYA theory? Yours never been "in a sling"? Must be nice!

I do believe in CYA. I don't believe in how they went about it.

[CNW 6000]

I was gonna say...that makes more sense re: how they went about it.

[coborn35]

Did they stop the train or call the dispatcher? He/She/They could have check their orders and found out if there was a hazardous car on the train, plus the crew should have already known about it.

[chad thomas]

The train was stopped in a sideing.

[carnej1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

The cure is called revolution. I believe that we have been headded that direction sience the government started cracking down on assult guns. There arguement was you don't need a AK47 to go deer hunting. The right to bear arms is not to protect bambi, it's to ensure the government feared the people. Well now it's the other way around. Our forefathers must be spinning in there graves.

Kind of off topic but brings up an interesting point. As a practical observation though I've never understood people who think that a populace armed with small arms(i.e nothing more than AK's/AR's and equivalent) is going to be able to topple the federal gov't. In the 1700's this would have been a practical proposition, but not in the 21st century. A military coup is your best bet (I'm only talking hypotheticals, no sane person would ever want that)...................................................meanwhile back at the rr discussion..........

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

The train was stopped in a sideing.

The train had been parked for 24 hours. There was no crew. The Highway Patrol attempted to call the MRL 24 hour hotline which is the specific agreement between local law enforcement and MRL. No one answered the phone.

No crew. No one answering the phone.

Next step?

Recall, these are the same agencies involved nine years ago this month, just a few miles west of this incident:

"The saga began when 18 cars of a Montana Rail Link freight train jumped the tracks just outside Alberton, 30 miles west of Missoula. The wreck left tanker cars spewing chlorine gas and other chemicals.

"More than 500 people fled their homes at 4 a.m., while 120 were rushed to area hospitals. For the next 17 days, hazardous waste crews worked to patch the leaking tankers." One person died.

Local agencies and MRL developed a "response" protocol when incidents arise which may involve hazardous materials. One of those protocols is to immediately contact MRL through the "hotline."

Under the protocol, MRL is supposed to answer the phone.

In the absence of confirmation by MRL, the protocol requires the assumption that leaking materials are hazardous until shown otherwise.

The local agency response followed the protocol.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton

They overreacted big time. With the ERG and a list of placards symbols. Asphalt is 3257 and is not even listed as a flammable it is a 9 or Other Regulated Mataeril (sp) .

Well if all the required placards were in place, it sounds like someone's jurisdiction is about ready for a refresher Hazardous Materials Placard recognition training class is in order.

PS Just because your paranoid doenst mean there not out to get you......[:0]

[kevikens]

Any government empowered to solve all problems is equally empowered to destroy all liberties.

[edblysard]

Or they could have dialed the 1-800 number for ChemTech Emergency Information, plastered on just about every other tank car, on a huge yellow sticker, about 3 feet by three feet wide and tall....

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton

They overreacted big time. With the ERG and a list of placards symbols. Asphalt is 3257 and is not even listed as a flammable it is a 9 or Other Regulated Mataeril (sp) .

Well if all the required placards were in place, it sounds like someone's jurisdiction is about ready for a refresher Hazardous Materials Placard recognition training class is in order.

PS Just because your paranoid doenst mean there not out to get you......[:0]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by carnej1


Kind of off topic but brings up an interesting point. As a practical observation though I've never understood people who think that a populace armed with small arms(i.e nothing more than AK's/AR's and equivalent) is going to be able to topple the federal gov't. In the 1700's this would have been a practical proposition, but not in the 21st century. A military coup is your best bet (I'm only talking hypotheticals, no sane person would ever want that)...................................................meanwhile back at the rr discussion..........

It's amazing what a determined lone nutter can accomplish with a sack of curtain rods, if he puts his mind to it.

I think that the people criticising the response of the authorities in this case, are taking liberties with monday morning quarterbacking.

It's AWFUL easy, to point the finger after knowing eventual outcome , and finding fault.

But back when this thing was unfolding in real time, that knowledge was not a luxury the men on the scene had.

If they had done nothing and the cars blew up spreading toxic goo all over the cars passing on the highway, the same people who are now calling the authorities morons for overreacting, would instead be calling them morons for not having done enough.

I too think that the agency will be conducting some refresher courses on haz mat response protocols, and rightly so.

but.

I mean gee, all these guys did was close a highway for no good reason. It isn't like they invaded a sovereign nation who had done nothing to provoke us or anything THAT severe..

[samfp1943]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

The train was stopped in a sideing.

The train had been parked for 24 hours. There was no crew. The Highway Patrol attempted to call the MRL 24 hour hotline which is the specific agreement between local law enforcement and MRL. No one answered the phone.

No crew. No one answering the phone.

Next step?

Recall, these are the same agencies involved nine years ago this month, just a few miles west of this incident:

"The saga began when 18 cars of a Montana Rail Link freight train jumped the tracks just outside Alberton, 30 miles west of Missoula. The wreck left tanker cars spewing chlorine gas and other chemicals.

"More than 500 people fled their homes at 4 a.m., while 120 were rushed to area hospitals. For the next 17 days, hazardous waste crews worked to patch the leaking tankers." One person died.

Local agencies and MRL developed a "response" protocol when incidents arise which may involve hazardous materials. One of those protocols is to immediately contact MRL through the "hotline."

Under the protocol, MRL is supposed to answer the phone.

In the absence of confirmation by MRL, the protocol requires the assumption that leaking materials are hazardous until shown otherwise.

The local agency response followed the protocol.

Thanks, MIchael,
There is always an unknown perspective[or bias], when one of these incidents is publicized by "Da Media", it is cast in whatever light they haphazardly seem to shine on an event. You can bet that it is first reported from the perspective o0f the old newspaper adage of "Bad News sells newspapers". And then after the dust settles, there is the revelation of what actually occurred and why certain actions were taken.
And around here[ this forum, of late: jumping to conclusions is gaining Olympic porportions]. Just my thoughts.
Sam

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by carnej1


Kind of off topic but brings up an interesting point. As a practical observation though I've never understood people who think that a populace armed with small arms(i.e nothing more than AK's/AR's and equivalent) is going to be able to topple the federal gov't. In the 1700's this would have been a practical proposition, but not in the 21st century. A military coup is your best bet (I'm only talking hypotheticals, no sane person would ever want that)...................................................meanwhile back at the rr discussion..........

It's amazing what a determined lone nutter can accomplish with a sack of curtain rods, if he puts his mind to it.

I think that the people criticising the response of the authorities in this case, are taking liberties with monday morning quarterbacking.

It's AWFUL easy, to point the finger after knowing eventual outcome , and finding fault.

But back when this thing was unfolding in real time, that knowledge was not a luxury the men on the scene had.

If they had done nothing and the cars blew up spreading toxic goo all over the cars passing on the highway, the same people who are now calling the authorities morons for overreacting, would instead be calling them morons for not having done enough.

I too think that the agency will be conducting some refresher courses on haz mat response protocols, and rightly so.

but.

I mean gee, all these guys did was close a highway for no good reason. It isn't like they invaded a sovereign nation who had done nothing to provoke us or anything THAT severe..

You just got done saying that you are basically ***ed if you do and ***ed if you don't in this situation and then you drop a nifty little jab about invading a country without provocation. Shall we wait until the mushroom clouds rise? Perhaps that would be the provocation we need. Of course, at that point people such as yourself would claim that we should have seen it coming and that the people in charge were idiots for not attacking the country before the incident.

***ed if you do, really ***ed if you don't, indeed.

[zgardner18]

I used to go to school there and I can tell you what, Montana is full of some very interesting people. That area to be exact, is kind of off the wall with liberals. Just think if that happened in Los Angeles or San Francisco. All of the liberals would be having a modernday witch hunt.

I've seen pictures of this kind of cloud that is put out in pictures, tell you what, it is a cool site.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

You just got done saying that you are basically ***ed if you do and ***ed if you don't in this situation and then you drop a nifty little jab about invading a country without provocation.

Yeah that is about the size of it.

The comparison was intended to illustrate the matter of scale. Closing an interstate for a period of time isn't gonna cause irreperable damage

I take it then that you didn't get my reference to "curtain rods"?

[Anonymous]

http://www.wegoted.com

http://www.stephaniemiller.com/

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murray

http://www.wegoted.com

http://www.stephaniemiller.com/

Interesting. Biased beyond beleif, but interesting. [8)]

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

You just got done saying that you are basically ***ed if you do and ***ed if you don't in this situation and then you drop a nifty little jab about invading a country without provocation.

Yeah that is about the size of it.

The comparison was intended to illustrate the matter of scale. Closing an interstate for a period of time isn't gonna cause irreperable damage

I take it then that you didn't get my reference to "curtain rods"?

Nope. You may have to elaborate for the less enlightened.

[tree68]

In the fire business, we jokingly refer to the "rule of thumb." If your thumb covers up the scene, you're far enough away. We also joke about the "donut hole rule," which is how the cops make the same decision - if they can see the whole incident through the donut hole, they, too, are far enough away.

The fire service often carries binoculars for just this reason - so you can stay far enough away and still make out the placard. The MHP might have been far enough away that they couldn't read the placard with the naked eye...

As mentioned, there is an ERG in all of my fire trucks, as well as in my truck. You'll notice there was no mention of a fire department/hazmat response...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murray

http://www.wegoted.com

http://www.stephaniemiller.com/

The gal in the picture on the second link is violating proper flag protocol.
Yeah it changes each time keep clicking if you don't see it the first time. The flag is not to be used as a blanket.[xx(]

[edbenton]

When I was driving OTR the 3 most important things in my truck for saftey when I was hauling hazmat of any kind were my manifest the ERG and my clipboard witht eh manifest on it. I never when anywere anyway without the ERG.