Two trains on the same track

[Anonymous]

Is it possible in this modern day age with current technology to have two trains moving towards one another on the same track? or could it never happen?

I have no doubts this question has been asked here before, but I'm not good with searches (unluckiest man alive), and it's probably been so long since the last time this topic was around, so perhaps resurrecting it was in order.

[Hugh Jampton]

Presumably you mean real close to each other, like in the same block, and not hundreds of miles apart.
In many parts of the world this is all too easy as there is no train protection systems which prevent this sort of thing. Which means it's down to the engineer to stop the train in the correct place if required (what stops you running a red light in your car?).

[daveklepper]

I think anyone really concerned with this problem should look at the history of the Indiana Railroad interurban system. Never had an incident like this in its history, 1931-1941. On unsingled single-track with siding territory, operators copied down orders from the dispatcher and then read them back before continuing. It was a very safe operation. After the end of service, one power company was forced to continue a small part of the operation, from Indianapolis south to Seymour. (The line had run south to Louisville, but was cut back in 1939 or 1940 to Seymour while still run by the Indiana Railroad.) I think only two round trips were scheduled. The kept two of the Indiana "high speeds" for the service, one in service and one in back-up and they had a utility line car.

On one return trip, with one passenger a pregnant woman rushing to a hospital, the trolley pole went off the wire (very unusual occurance) and the retriever rope broke. The excited operator called the dispatcher and then repaired the rope by climbing on the roof of the car and avoiding touching the wire or having the pole touch the wire, managed to get the pole under the hook, repaired the rope with knot, and raised the pole and headed for Indianapolis. Meanwhile, the Dispatcher, thinking the Operator had called for help, either ran the line car himself or had someone else do it and headed south from Indianapolis. I need not continue what happened. And of course the newpapers called it an Indiana Railroad tragedy because the name was still on the two high-speeds. The remaining high-speed of the two is at Union at the Illinois Railway Museum, having gone to the Ceder Rapids and Iowas City. Anoother, the all-parlor unit that did not go to the power company, is at Seasore in Maine.

Railroads have procedures and rules and when they are followed, one is safer than one is in one's own home or office.

The problems arise when one forgets or is too lazy or lacks patience to follow the rules and procedures.

[edblysard]

In CTC, and ABS, it almost never happens.
Most train to train collisions occur in dark territory, under RTC(radio traffic control) or TWC(track warrant control) operating systems as the result of the train crew exceeding the limits of their authority, either because they copied the warrant wrong, or failed to fully grasp the radio transmission.
On occasion, it can be due to dispatcher error, but if the train crews are operating by the book, then the rules they must follow should prevent this…

It happens, but it is not a common occurrence.

Ed

[Dutchrailnut]

In any signal situation including CTC and Cabs/ATC its possible to have a collision at 30 mph.
Both trains entering a station platform for example can both move at restricted speed.
on a restricted signal or if one train is being talked by a red..
so yes collisions could happen but due to restricted speed rules seldom do.

[jchnhtfd]

Yes. Not only is it possible under the rules (but if both trains are really moving at restricted speed -- stop within half the range of vision -- you shouldn't have a problem... well, not a collision!) but, my friend, mistakes do happen. The objective is, as one of signs himself, to come home in the same condition you left in, and folks spend a lot of time on safety. To minimize the mistakes.

[blhanel]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jim_White

Is it possible in this modern day age with current technology to have two trains moving towards one another on the same track? or could it never happen?

IIRC, I've observed this scenario over at Lisle, IL on the BNSF racetrack- an eastbound freight was held short of a crossover waiting for a westbound on the same track to come through using the crossover to one of the other tracks. God forbid a malfunction on the crossover switch...

[spbed]

Yes I saw it in Flatonia TX just the other day where a SB was waiting while a NB went from the track the SB was on to a track going west towards San Antonio. I would estimate the distance between the 2 trains on the same track was about 1/4 mile [:o)]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jim_White

Is it possible in this modern day age with current technology to have two trains moving towards one another on the same track? or could it never happen?

I have no doubts this question has been asked here before, but I'm not good with searches (unluckiest man alive), and it's probably been so long since the last time this topic was around, so perhaps resurrecting it was in order.

[daveklepper]

In a modern interlocking, a malfunction of a crossover switch would insure a red signal. The same would be true of CTC, but with the added effect of the problem appearing on the model board in front of the dispatchers vision or on a computer screen.

[Anonymous]

In the 1930s, two Wabash freight engines were moving towards each other in the engine terminal at Montpelier, O. The collision caused better than $10,000 in damage to the two engines, a lot of damage in 1930's dollars.

During the investigation, the crews were interviewed without any other crew members present - just the investigating officer and the union representatives.

Testimony brought out that both engines were stopped at the time of the collision.

Old Timer

[coborn35]

If two trains are in the same block, they would use radio blocking.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Ed has it right, if everybody knows their job and is paying attention, a collision between two trains would be virtually impossible. Unfortunately, human beings are not infallible so collisions do occur.

[BaltACD]

As long as all rules are followed by all involved in the movement of trains, it won't happen; however, humans being the falible creatures we are will make mistakes, multiple mistakes cascading right through the Rule Book and head on collisions still happend today.

[TheS.P.caboose]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jim_White

Is it possible in this modern day age with current technology to have two trains moving towards one another on the same track? or could it never happen?

I have no doubts this question has been asked here before, but I'm not good with searches (unluckiest man alive), and it's probably been so long since the last time this topic was around, so perhaps resurrecting it was in order.

Yes, I've seen something like this happen before. This was back before the Southern Pacific-Union Pacific merger. The coast line was operating on DTC (Direct Traffic Control) and there were 3 locals, 1 eastbound freight and 1 westbound freight. All five trains were within 30 miles of each other.

The eastbound train was given authourity to proceed east into the Chatsworth block, take siding at Chatsworth. The three locals were given work and time authority until the westbound train was ready to get his blocks. A few minutes later the westbound was given the Hewitt, Northridge and Chatsworth blocks. The three locals had cleared up and came back out inbetween the east and west thru frieghts. They cleared up for the eastbound and came back out onto the main behind the eastbound.

[jimrice4449]

You might want to check on news reports of the occasional head on collisions. Notice that an inordinate percentage seem to occur in the wee hours of the morning. I worked w/ an engineer once who was working his first assignment after a 6 month sabatical for dozing off while heading into a CTC siding and running out the other end. The job went through the Univ. of Idaho campus and it was around midnight on a friday night. I was hanging out the cab window eyeballing the train to make sure we didn't pick up any psgrs when it occurred to me that we hadn't been whistling for any crossings. I looked over to the other side of the cab and, sure enough, ZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

[Anonymous]

Ed , I think if you look at all head ons in the past ten years the majority were in ABS,CTC, territory.

Crew Fatigue, Not familar with territory and train handling quality and what I think is the number one problemn, lack of quality training.




Ringer
GOD BLESS THE GREAT NORTHERN

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

If two trains are in the same block, they would use radio blocking.

What in the world is radio blocking? If two trains facing the same direction are in the same block, one could have simply flagged in behind the other one.

[edblysard]

Ringer,
Devine and Shepherd, Texas...both dark territory...Devine, head on by moving UP freights, dispatcher issued conflicting warrants...Shepherd was a main line switch not lined back for the main, inbound plowed into a parked local after the local's conductor released his track and time.
Another one out in West Texas, dark territory, UP freight hit head on with a BNSF on joint tracks...UP crew was 23 miles outside of the authority on their warrant...and blew by three red block signals to get there...
And the most well known one…NS runs into parked local, spills chlorine all over…conductor released track and time, failed to line back, NS plows a freight into the local in the siding…dark there also.

Don’t get me wrong, I work in dark territory, under RTC, and in our entire 82 history, the PTRA has had one head one…and that one was two years ago.
Your right though, crew fatigue and rest issues, and the failure of the carriers to teach the new hires much beyond how to line a switch and lace the air are major factors….

And I’m with Ken…what the heck is “radio blocking”?

Ed

[daveklepper]

Errors need correction. There was only one round trip on the Indianapolis Seymore line at the time of the accident, and the lince car was stationed at and moved our from Columbia, Indiana, not Indianpolis.

[coborn35]

Now that I think about it, Radio Blocking may not be used on Class 1's. What it is is, lets say Train A is in Lester River Siding. Train B is in the Depot. (2 miles apart)
They both depart. "This is train A to Train B, we have cleared MP 12.0"
And so on and so on. So they know where each other is. Common use down here.

[Anonymous]

I wonder if what coburn35 is talking about could be possibly be found in the "General Responsibilities" at this link: http://www.sdrm.org/faqs/rulebook/toc.html somewhere under "2.0 Radio Rules". I'm not familiar with all RR rules, so I wouldn't know for sure. Then again, the rules for radio blocking (if an actual existing possibilty) could vary from one RR corporation to the next.

[jeffhergert]

The CN uses radio blocking, at least they did when we detoured over them in Western Iowa.
The CN track warrant form has on line 17 in addition to "other specific instructions," Radio Blocking in effect behind____from___to___. This allows trains in the same direction to operate without the dispatcher having to give a new track warrant to the following train(s) in non-signaled TWC territory.
Also on the form is Record of train location for Radio Blocking (Rule 1004, Item 4)
(preceding train ID) clear of: then lines for Location, Time preceding train cleared and who reported the train clear.
It works just like Coburn35 said. A following train can't enter the limits without the train ahead reporting clear of some point. Once the first train reports clear of, say MP400, the following train may then operate to, but not pass MP400 unless the first train reports clear of a new location. The first train can report clear to the following train directly or thru the dispatcher.
When we detoured, we used company issued cell phones. This was because sometimes the distance between trains exceeded our radio's range. We picked up the cell phones where we entered the CN, and turned them back in where we left the CN.
The fifth edition of GCOR has provisions for radio blocking under Rule 14.4.1.
Jeff

[edblysard]

Thanks, Jeff...
Will get the book out of my locker tomorrow and read the rule....
Ed