Rumors, myths, urban legends??

[mloik]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

While we're on the subject of (railroad) rumors, myths, and urban legends.........................

(Never fear, no flaming here......)

There is a story in one of those Little House books about the CNW trying to buck some pretty deep snow filled cuts to reopen the line back in the 1880's. The story as related says the Superintendent of the railroad took the controls of the lead engine pushing a flatcar mounted snow plow after the engineer declined to do so. They (the superintendent and an engineer in a second locomotive) backed up a mile or so, pulled full throttle, and hit the train-high drift head on. After the resultant snow shower cleared, they found the lead engine stuck fast completely encapsulated in a foot thick layer of ice, and they had to chop a hole in the ice just to get to the cab.

Can anyone ascertain from records that this event actually took place as told, or is it simply artistic license at play?

Sounds like you may have seen too many Thomas the Tank Engine episodes! While I'm sure that the Tracy Cut sees its share of snowy weather, do you know how long it sat trapped in the snow bank? Even if the impact and heat of the engine melted the snow immediately in contact with the engine, virtually all of it would have infiltrated through lower layers of the snow, and then drained off the surface of the ground (or any ice layers on the ground.) What you describe is essentially flash-freezing, which requires extremely low temperatures, especially for something as big and (at least partially) hot as a locomotive. Temperatures during snowstorms are generally relatively high (close to the freezing point) due to the release of the heat of fusion from the precip to the atmosphere. Just my humble opinion, but I deal with heat and mass (water) transfer phenomena within snow and the atmosphere on a daily basis.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffhergert

In Richard Steinheimer"s book, "The Electric way across the Mountains," it is said that one of the first test trains generated more electricity going downhill in regeneration than it used going uphill. After checking the electrical meters, it was figured that the power company owed the Milwaukee Road $1.40.
Jeff

This is the same train going back up the same hill? Not possible. You cannot get the same amount of energy (or more) back out of a system as you put in. There is always some loss as no machine is 100% efficient.

Now if he is talking about powering another train or the same train on the next (smaller) hill, then it's plausible.

This would involve two trains - One headed upgrade, and the other headed down. The down train would, using regenerative braking, put power back on the catenary. The train climbing the hill uses that power.

It would a challenge to store that much power, although it could be done.

I've already addressed line losses in the catenary and infrastructure. The thing for the electrical engineers to tell us is how much power could be generated vs how much power was needed for "equal" down and up trains, respectively.

As has been stated, the "down" train probably wouldn't generate enough power to completely supply the "up" train, but it would cut down greatly on the amount of power the RR would need to buy to make it all happen. It was obviously worth it - the did it for a long time.

[rrnut282]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffhergert

In Richard Steinheimer"s book, "The Electric way across the Mountains," it is said that one of the first test trains generated more electricity going downhill in regeneration than it used going uphill. After checking the electrical meters, it was figured that the power company owed the Milwaukee Road $1.40.
Jeff

This is the same train going back up the same hill? Not possible. You cannot get the same amount of energy (or more) back out of a system as you put in. There is always some loss as no machine is 100% efficient.

Now if he is talking about powering another train or the same train on the next (smaller) hill, then it's plausible.

[tatans]

Well, with all those flat spots on the wheels, WILL the train be able to move??

[jeffhergert]

In Richard Steinheimer"s book, "The Electric way across the Mountains," it is said that one of the first test trains generated more electricity going downhill in regeneration than it used going uphill. After checking the electrical meters, it was figured that the power company owed the Milwaukee Road $1.40.
Jeff

[Anonymous]

There is some truth to the electric legend - some rail systems have used regenerative braking in trains going downhill to provide some of the power for trains climbing. They certainly don't provide all the power, but over a year or so it would cut down the electricity bills dramatically.

[WSOR 3801]

Or the shop could hook up a traction motor backwards. It gets unhooked from the engine and hooked up to a welder to turn the wheelset when machining the wheel. Sombody didn't hook it back up right. :( Went 20 miles, tripping ground relay, etc., before the problem was fully known. Cut out the motor, go on your way.

[Kevin C. Smith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

I have read about the flat spots after locking up on a long downgrade, only this story is placed on the Orinoco Iron Mining line in Venezuela.

A variation on this story involves stalling in a tunnel but the locomotive's wheels kept turning and ground into the rail.

Way back when, TRAINS had an article on US Army Alco's that were modified to work the Iranian State Railways during WWII to increase Lend-Lease supplies to Russia. There was a photo of some rails with deep indents ground into them by slipping locomotive wheels. Apparently long hours and desert heat caught up with the head end crew, who fell asleep and didn't notice their train had stalled while the wheels were still turning. By the time they awoke, the wheels had worn almost through the head and into the rail web.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Great!
Now, what about the claim that Milwaukee electrics going downhill with the regenerative braking could power an uphill train of the same size?

Physically impossible - Even if a train going downgrade theoretically generates enough power to supply an equally sized upgrade train, line losses would mean the upgrade train wouldn't have quite enough power to do the job. The downgrade train would have to generate more power than the upgrade train needed....

I think we had a thread about dynamic braking here a while back, but I don't remember if numbers were discussed. A lot would depend on the relative efficiencies of the traction motors as motors or generators.

But everything I've read about them says that they did definitely use regenerative braking, so even if it wasn't one for one, it still wanders toward the idea of perpetual motion.

[Anonymous]

The original Westinghouse Air Brake was founded in 1869 by George Westinghouse shortly after he successfully demonstrated the first straight air brake systems to the railroad industry. Three years later, Westinghouse developed the first automatic air brake system, which had a built-in safeguard whereby the brakes on the entire train would apply automatically if the train should separate or if air pressure should escape due to leakage in the system. This system was first installed on a Pennsylvania Railroad passenger train in Pittsburgh in 1872, and its efficiency dramatically improved the safety and popularity of rail transportation in North America.

taken from wabtecs site to put the three hundred year thing to rest. And 6 lash up one wrong way is not a DP scenario. although a dp unit can definately be set up to go the oppisite direction. In order for the six unit going wrong way with one someone would have to create this situation theres just not enough loop holes to have it happen otherwise .....you have to miss mu'ing the engine have the engine to run backwards set up independantly and not part of the consist and have someone actualy release its breaks move the reverser etc etc... just not plausible even.

[Anonymous]

Great!

Now, what about the claim that Milwaukee electrics going downhill with the regenerative braking could power an uphill train of the same size?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

While we're on the subject of (railroad) rumors, myths, and urban legends.........................

(Never fear, no flaming here......)

There is a story in one of those Little House books about the CNW trying to buck some pretty deep snow filled cuts to reopen the line back in the 1880's. The story as related says the Superintendent of the railroad took the controls of the lead engine pushing a flatcar mounted snow plow after the engineer declined to do so. They (the superintendent and an engineer in a second locomotive) backed up a mile or so, pulled full throttle, and hit the train-high drift head on. After the resultant snow shower cleared, they found the lead engine stuck fast completely encapsulated in a foot thick layer of ice, and they had to chop a hole in the ice just to get to the cab.

Can anyone ascertain from records that this event actually took place as told, or is it simply artistic license at play?

Quite true, The Tracy cut is still a problem in severe storms today.
Randy

futuremodal: That would be on the DM&E now. A few years back, when we had a rough winter, the local paper did a big article about the DM&E snowplow crew working over that line to keep it open.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffhergert

QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock

Flat spots happen still to this day. What sensors on new cars? is my first question. As I have never seen them.
Second the one unit in reverse is an urban legend.Alarm bells would be going off if you put in a reverser and attempted to move it into a different position.

I think the sensor he is referring to is the load/empty sensor. It's been a while since i've read about them, but I think it's supposed to vary to braking force applied depending on the weight of the car (loaded or empty) to reduce wheels from sliding.

As to one engine trying to go opposite from the rest, it is possible on Distributed Power to set it up incorrectily and have the remote unit(s) try to go opposite from the lead. There is a switch that is positioned "Lead or Same as Head End" for the remote engine when facing the same way as the lead (controlling) engine or "Opposite from Head End" if the remote engine is facing opposite. If this isn't placed right you could have problems or, as I've heard happened, the switch wasn't wired correctly when it was installed.
Jeff

Bump test em!

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

I have heard of drivers locking up, but not cars......they probably can though.

Think about the relative surface contact area - brake shoes vs rail. As soon as the coefficient of friction between the wheel and the rail drops below the coefficient of friction between the wheel and the brake shoe, the wheel will slide. Given enough weight on the wheel, that crossover may not occur.

Sorry, no numbers to crunch there - well beyond my resources....

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock

Flat spots happen still to this day. What sensors on new cars? is my first question. As I have never seen them.
Second the one unit in reverse is an urban legend.Alarm bells would be going off if you put in a reverser and attempted to move it into a different position.

I think the sensor he is referring to is the load/empty sensor. It's been a while since i've read about them, but I think it's supposed to vary to braking force applied depending on the weight of the car (loaded or empty) to reduce wheels from sliding.

As to one engine trying to go opposite from the rest, it is possible on Distributed Power to set it up incorrectily and have the remote unit(s) try to go opposite from the lead. There is a switch that is positioned "Lead or Same as Head End" for the remote engine when facing the same way as the lead (controlling) engine or "Opposite from Head End" if the remote engine is facing opposite. If this isn't placed right you could have problems or, as I've heard happened, the switch wasn't wired correctly when it was installed.
Jeff

[route_rock]

Flat spots happen still to this day. What sensors on new cars? is my first question. As I have never seen them.
Second the one unit in reverse is an urban legend.Alarm bells would be going off if you put in a reverser and attempted to move it into a different position.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I have read about the flat spots after locking up on a long downgrade, only this story is placed on the Orinoco Iron Mining line in Venezuela.

A variation on this story involves stalling in a tunnel but the locomotive's wheels kept turning and ground into the rail.

[Ham549]

It can happen see.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mersenne6


I don't know about not being able to get going but you can flatten the wheels with an emergency stop to the point where the ride is extremely rough. In his book No Royal Road, Custer recounts his wild stop at Greensburg, Pa. where he slammed on the brakes for the entire passenger train. "Most of the wheels were flattened, and the rest of the run was like running over a corduroy road."

THAT was the part of the story that got my attention, the flat spots allegedly immobilizing the engine.

I can see the flat spots making it "inadvisable" to drive the train out, but the claim that it resultingly was UNABLE to gain traction seems like a pantload.

[TH&B]

What about the story about a "lashup" of 6 or so units with a short light train, with one unit accidently in reverse. The first time i heard it the train traveled clear across the transcontinental without anyone noticing the wheels turning cackwards on a trailing unit, the hp to weight beig to high to notice. Then I later heard the same story but only across the whole subdivision. Could this trip realy have lasted more then a mile or so before SOMEBODY noticed?? or maybe a few miles before ot DERAILED??

[Randy Stahl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

While we're on the subject of (railroad) rumors, myths, and urban legends.........................

(Never fear, no flaming here......)

There is a story in one of those Little House books about the CNW trying to buck some pretty deep snow filled cuts to reopen the line back in the 1880's. The story as related says the Superintendent of the railroad took the controls of the lead engine pushing a flatcar mounted snow plow after the engineer declined to do so. They (the superintendent and an engineer in a second locomotive) backed up a mile or so, pulled full throttle, and hit the train-high drift head on. After the resultant snow shower cleared, they found the lead engine stuck fast completely encapsulated in a foot thick layer of ice, and they had to chop a hole in the ice just to get to the cab.

Can anyone ascertain from records that this event actually took place as told, or is it simply artistic license at play?

Quite true, The Tracy cut is still a problem in severe storms today.
Randy

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

While we're on the subject of (railroad) rumors, myths, and urban legends.........................

(Never fear, no flaming here......)

There is a story in one of those Little House books about the CNW trying to buck some pretty deep snow filled cuts to reopen the line back in the 1880's. The story as related says the Superintendent of the railroad took the controls of the lead engine pushing a flatcar mounted snow plow after the engineer declined to do so. They (the superintendent and an engineer in a second locomotive) backed up a mile or so, pulled full throttle, and hit the train-high drift head on. After the resultant snow shower cleared, they found the lead engine stuck fast completely encapsulated in a foot thick layer of ice, and they had to chop a hole in the ice just to get to the cab.

Can anyone ascertain from records that this event actually took place as told, or is it simply artistic license at play?

I remember reading that as well. Even at the tender age of 7, I was flinching, for I knew the likely outcome. I distinctly remember thinking, this sounds like a bad idea, maybe the snow got to his sanity.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

So do railroads have any problem now-a days with flat spots on wheels when the emergency brake is applied?

They certainly do. Any time you hear a train pass you by, you might hear a unique thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk, or rapid (depending on the speed) bang-bang-bang-bang. One of the possible sources of that sound is a wheel with a flat spot.

A few years ago i was on a Califorina Zephyr going to truckee and the car we were in had a flat spot the whole trip it was Thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk, it was fun[V]

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mersenne6


I don't know about not being able to get going but you can flatten the wheels with an emergency stop to the point where the ride is extremely rough. In his book No Royal Road, Custer recounts his wild stop at Greensburg, Pa. where he slammed on the brakes for the entire passenger train. "Most of the wheels were flattened, and the rest of the run was like running over a corduroy road."

Reminds my of the time Lucy pulled the emergency brake on the City of Los Angeles Each time she did this,Fred dumped soup all over himself.

[mersenne6]

I don't know about not being able to get going but you can flatten the wheels with an emergency stop to the point where the ride is extremely rough. In his book No Royal Road, Custer recounts his wild stop at Greensburg, Pa. where he slammed on the brakes for the entire passenger train. "Most of the wheels were flattened, and the rest of the run was like running over a corduroy road."

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

So do railroads have any problem now-a days with flat spots on wheels when the emergency brake is applied?

yes. any empty car has a tendency to slide its wheels when an emgerency application occurs on a moving trian. empty grain trains and empty coal trains and empty bare table trains are very bad at sliding wheels. there are sincsors on cars the help prevent the sliding of wheels, but these sinsors are relatively new and not on older cars.

[Anonymous]

While we're on the subject of (railroad) rumors, myths, and urban legends.........................

(Never fear, no flaming here......)

There is a story in one of those Little House books about the CNW trying to buck some pretty deep snow filled cuts to reopen the line back in the 1880's. The story as related says the Superintendent of the railroad took the controls of the lead engine pushing a flatcar mounted snow plow after the engineer declined to do so. They (the superintendent and an engineer in a second locomotive) backed up a mile or so, pulled full throttle, and hit the train-high drift head on. After the resultant snow shower cleared, they found the lead engine stuck fast completely encapsulated in a foot thick layer of ice, and they had to chop a hole in the ice just to get to the cab.

Can anyone ascertain from records that this event actually took place as told, or is it simply artistic license at play?

[CG9602]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

So do railroads have any problem now-a days with flat spots on wheels when the emergency brake is applied?

They certainly do. Any time you hear a train pass you by, you might hear a unique thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk, or rapid (depending on the speed) bang-bang-bang-bang. One of the possible sources of that sound is a wheel with a flat spot.

[Anonymous]

So do railroads have any problem now-a days with flat spots on wheels when the emergency brake is applied?

[coborn35]

I have heard of drivers locking up, but not cars......they probably can though.