Metro North's Genesis'

[Anonymous]

Now i know the Genesis can run off of a third rail power and i know Metro North has many third rail lines, now..... Does Metro North use the third rail power for their Genesis'eseses or Genesi[:D]???

[daveklepper]

Yes. They have to in order to legally run the trains into Grand Central Terminal. But legally they need only to use third rail power in Manhattan. Once across the Harlem River Bridge to the Bronx, they are free to use either power, and my experience was they usually switch to diesel. Possibly this has changed. With the FL-9's in latter days, they sometimes switched to diesel around 100th Street, just leaving the tunnel.

Amtrak, with similar locomotives, uses diesel straight through to about 50th Street and switches to third rail (LIRR type, overruning, not Metro North underruning) into Penn Station. Amtrak uses an electric, often an AEM-7, to pull the Genesis and the train to Sunnyside (which lacks third rail in the yard) and back to Penn Station.

The original FL-9 third rail shoe could operate on both systems and did. Until poor PC maintenance and improper restoration of third rail ramps in the Park Avenue tunnel after maintenance (or during) made use of this double-sprung third rail shoe impractical.

The New Haven passenger electrics, but not freight electrics (no third rail shoe) or MU cars (underruning only), had a cam operated third rail shoe that could use either third rail. The LIRR third rail was used from Harold Tower (near Sunnyside) into Penn Station by NYNH&H electrics until Pennsy's overhead wire electrification was extended north from Trenton to Sunnyside Yard.

[eolafan]

Back in the 1970's when I was commuting to GCT on the Harlem line I remember well seeing (and smelling) FL9's idling in diesel mode at the platrorms in GCT due to the FL9's batteries being bad and preventing them from shutting down the prime movers in the GCT tunnels.

[David_Telesha]

The New Haven FL-9's were the first ever dual modes.

The DC Traction motors can be powered from the 600v DC third rail. It just requires some extra control equipment. The FL-9's started service in 1957 (2000-2029) and in 1960 30 more came on (2030-2059). 2059 was the last F unit EMD ever built.

Around the mid-90's the FL-9's were getting dated, so Metro North had GE build the P32AC-DM.

The P32AC-DM is just like the FL-9 - it has third rail shoes and control gear to draw power from the third rail.

Metro North owns 28 P32AC-DM's - 200-227.

Connecticut DoT owns 4 painted in the New Haven McGinnis scheme - 228-231

Amtrak also owns several to go into NY Penn.

BTW - the P32AC-DM is the ONLY Genesis that can do this.

[Dutchrailnut]

Metro North owns 27 P32acdm's as the numbering is from 201 to 227 plus the 4 CDOT units 228 > 231
Amtrak has 18 P32acdm's numbered 700 > 717.
all other genesis do not run of third rail, only the above mentioned units

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Yes. They have to in order to legally run the trains into Grand Central Terminal. But legally they need only to use third rail power in Manhattan. Once across the Harlem River Bridge to the Bronx, they are free to use either power, and my experience was they usually switch to diesel. Possibly this has changed. With the FL-9's in latter days, they sometimes switched to diesel around 100th Street, just leaving the tunnel.

Dave,
Are you sure? For many years I've taken walks along Park Avenue at night and have clearly heard the rumbling of diesels coming through the grates that are above the tunnels. This was as close as 59th Street. I always thought it was only steamers that were banned.

[daveklepper]

The whole story is in "Diesels to Park Avenue" available from the New Haven Railroad Historical Society, which can be accessed on email from the TRAINS website via historical organizations. A book well worth reading.

You are right. Metro North violated New York City law. The law was set aside by a variance to allow the one of the original UP streamliners to visit Grand Central at the still-existing Waldor Hotel siding and run its diesel on low power for lights and air conditioning for a short time, but otherwise it is illegal to run diesel power into GCT (or Penn for that matter).

My cousin, passed away one year ago, was the lawyer for Restaurant Associates who operated one or more of the Waldorf's restaurants. Patrons were comlaining about being gassed. Meanwhile I was making my daily commute from the East 16th St. apartment to my office right by the North White Plains Metro North Station. I knew that diesel power was being used, because the FL-9's and also third rail ramps in the Park Avenue tunnel were not being maintained properly (loss of third rail shoes). One of the maintenance problems was that GM's supplier of change-over switches had gone out of business. Some engineers failed to shut down power when changing modes and poof goes the changeover switch with an arc. So after Metro North's Legal staff told Restaurant Associates that "We only use electric power in the tunnel," my cousin asked me what was up and I told him the full story.

The upshot was I got into a fight with Metro North conductor and spent a night in jail because he had pulled some dirty tricks on me to lose my commuter ticket and then punched the multi-ride twice.

But I still continued commuting right after a night in the Metro North lockup in Yonders under the Yonkers station.

Because my cousin told them who gave him the facts.

But I did have the great pleasure of seeing electric P-motors in White Plains swapping off the FL-9's and that made up for a lot

Today you will not hear diesel noises coming through the Park Avenue gratings, and they are very careful about this. Metro North's maintenance has improved a lot.

[Dutchrailnut]

Despite Daves insistance there is no such law, Diesels are restricted however due to new EPA agreement betweeen MNCR and EPA.
as far as law is concerned read for yourselfs.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/steam-laws.html. aNd even the Genesis engines stay running into GCT till Cab car is on platform, even when running in E mode. the Diesel is kept in Idle.
Outbound the diesel is off till end of tunnel, after its started the switchover is at or after 125 th street station.

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

Despite Daves insistance there is no such law, Diesels are restricted however due to new EPA agreement betweeen MNCR and EPA.

When was that? Was Amtrak party to the agreement? I believe most of the diesel trains are Amtrak not MNCR. AFAIK, the MNCR trains are electric cars.

QUOTE:
as far as law is concerned read for yourselfs.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/steam-laws.html.

I get a message that the URL is no longer active.

QUOTE:
aNd even the Genesis engines stay running into GCT till Cab car is on platform, even when running in E mode. the Diesel is kept in Idle.
Outbound the diesel is off till end of tunnel, after its started the switchover is at or after 125 th street station.

I think I've distinctly heard throttle changes, meaning the diesels are not idling, and often it really sounds like the engines are under a load. I'll listen more carefully.

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: When was that? Was Amtrak party to the agreement? I believe most of the diesel trains are Amtrak not MNCR. AFAIK, the MNCR trains are electric cars.

Why does this concern Amtrak? Are they a tenant of GCT?

Why would MNCR own 27 +4 CDOT (MNCR pool) dual modes if they don't run dual modes into GCT?

P.S. Take the period off the end of the URL - its active.

[Simon Reed]

I recall coming out of GCT behind a Genocide a couple of years ago which seemed to get "gapped" - i.e. on a crossover with no contacts too much momentum was lost.

The engineer gave it the briefest burst of diesel to get rolling again then shut the diesel down. I can't remember which track we were coming out of but I got the impression that may have been a relative common expedient.

[Anonymous]

it runs on deisel genieus'

[daveklepper]

I knew the diesel was kept on idle. There is a polution law in New York and diesels running in tunnels violate it. I was not referring to the law banning steam locomotives in Manhattan but to the quality of air and polution law. Most Metro N. trains are electric, but there are two or so through diesel trains from Danbury every morning and back in the evening
and hourly diesel trains to and from Poughkeepsie, most of which do not change trains at Croton Harmon but use the Genisis dual mode locomotives in push-pull configuration.

If they are now switching power modes at 125th Street, that is understandable and only a short distance from the bridge to The Bronx.

[dwil89]

have been going to Metro North's Croton Harmon Open House in October the past few years...They had plenty of FL9's on display at the shops...Several lined up outside, and two inside with one painted up on New Haven and the other in New York Central livery. I started railfanning seriously in 1997 or so, and while railfanning the Conrail-now CSX River line near Bear Mountain, NY, would aim my video camera over to the East Shore to shoot the Metro-North passenger trains along with the once plentiful FL-9's prior to the Genesis units taking over. Even though the FL9's had their 567 prime movers replaced with 645's, they still loked and sounded good out there....

[Dutchrailnut]

OK the FL9's did not have 645 engines installed, they have 567 engines with 645 power assemblies, their still rated 1750hp. one reason the FL('s are no longer used in GCT on revenue moves is the HEP can not be suplied from Third rail and the HEP diesel smokes up the place to much.
After running the FL9's for 17 years and the Genesis since 1995 in and out of GCT , I got the concept of it pretty well covered.

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

QUOTE: When was that? Was Amtrak party to the agreement? I believe most of the diesel trains are Amtrak not MNCR. AFAIK, the MNCR trains are electric cars.

Why does this concern Amtrak? Are they a tenant of GCT?

Not currently, I believe. Amtrak used to run out of GCT. Being out of sight there was no way for me to identify the train.

If you want to see a Genesis parked at GCT:
http://www.marginalsoftware/Temp/grand_central_terminal2005.htm
I was tempted to try to take a pic framing the entire engine except that the doors were due to close in a few seconds. The engine of 211 was off.

[Simon Reed]

One for Dutchrailnut, I expect.

Do the leased P40's stick to Danbury/Waterbury/Shore Line East jobs or do they also get onto Wassaic shuttles?

Do the GP38's previously used on Shore Line East still work?

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: Not currently, I believe. Amtrak used to run out of GCT.

Ya don't say. That was a rhetorical question.

Simon, CDOT does not have GP38's - they are GP40's and they are used everyday on SLE - AFAIK the leased GE P40's are not used on SLE yet.

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

OK the FL9's did not have 645 engines installed, they have 567 engines with 645 power assemblies, their still rated 1750hp. one reason the FL('s are no longer used in GCT on revenue moves is the HEP can not be suplied from Third rail and the HEP diesel smokes up the place to much.
After running the FL9's for 17 years and the Genesis since 1995 in and out of GCT , I got the concept of it pretty well covered.

I Apparently, I was partially correct in my 567-645 answer after all...Some, not all of the MN FL9's were upgraded....According to an article which I will provide a link to, Metro North FL9's 2040-2046 were upgraded to 3000 HP Turbocharged status...was this done by adding 645 power assemblies to a 567 or by replacing the 567's with 645's...see link http://piercehaviland.com/rail/fl9.html

[Dutchrailnut]

The P40's are used on all shuttles on New Haven and on upper harlem , they will not run into GCT.
The 2040-2046 were total rebuilds and were called the starships due to the controls and switchboard type stuff in cab, they were powered by 12/710G3 engine of 3000 hp.
all other 567 passeger engines over the years recieved 645 power assemblies.

[Dutchrailnut]

Here is Joe Brennans site about the law, i copied it due to people saying link was dead.

Steam Railroad Laws in New York City

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Folklore among railfans and New York City buffs is that there is a law against operating steam engines in tunnels in Manhattan, or something similar. This has earned the status of a FAQ on railroad newsgroups.

Here are the facts.


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The Grand Central Law
Chapter 425 of the Laws of 1903 is titled "An Act to provide for further regulation of the terminals and approaches thereto of the New York and Harlem railroad at and north of Forty-second street in the city of New York. . .". This law was passed and effective 7 May 1903.

The lengthy text of this law generally provides the powers needed to close and regrade public streets, condemn property, and so on, to make possible the construction of Grand Central Terminal.

Section 3 requires plans for the reconstruction to be submitted within 30 days of the Act (i.e. by 6 June 1903) to the Board of Estimate and Apportionment of the city of New York. This board was until recently the legislative body of the city.

Section 4 states that, beginning 5 years after approval of the plans (i.e. by about June 1908 or slightly later), "it shall not be lawful, except only in case of necessity, arising from the temporary failure of such other motive power as may be lawfully adopted, for any railroad corporation to operate trains by steam locomotives in Park avenue in the city of New York south of the Harlem river. If . . . trains shall be operated by steam locomotives in said Park avenue south of the Harlem river for a period of more than three days, the railroad corporation operating such trains shall pay to the city of New York a penalty of five hundred dollars for every day or part of day during which such trains are so operated, unless the mayor of the city of New York shall certify to the necessity for the use of steam locomotives arising from the temporary failure of other motive power." It goes on to detail how the mayor certifies the necessity and how the mayor may revoke the certificate at will.

It then states that the New York and Harlem railroad, the New York, New Haven and Hartford railroad, and any successor companies using the railroad in Park Avenue, "are hereby authorized to run their trains by electricity, or by compressed air, or by any motive power other than steam and which does not involve combustion in the motors themselves, through the tunnel and over the improvements. . .". The "improvements" refers to the terminal itself and the Park Avenue viaduct.

This law is of the type known as an "unconsolidated law", so information on it is a little harder to find than for example the amendment to the Public Service Law discussed in the next section below. It appears in the annual Laws passed by the legislature and where it is appears it is indexed under New York and Harlem Railroad. This law was amended under Chapter 639 Laws of 1904 and Chapter 555 Laws of 1910, but not as to section 4. I could find no further reference to it in a search running into the 1940's. It is not in an unofficial two-volume work of selected unconsolidated laws used by the legal profession. Therefore it appears that as of the completion of the terminal in 1913, and the end of any need for powers to take property in connection with its construction, this law was forgotten.

If Chapter 425 of 1903 is still effective, then the use of any internal combustion engines is clearly outlawed by section 4, and so operation of any diesel engines is a violation except in emergencies. However the only penalty provided for is 500 dollars a day payable to the city, which, while effective for a for-profit railroad, makes little sense when government agencies are paying the railroad to operate. Clearly it was thought that the city would file an action under section 4 if there was any need.

The law does not limit steam operation in any other tunnels, and conversely it is also not limited to the Park Avenue tunnel but applies as well to the elevated viaduct from the portal at 97th St up to the Harlem River. Its application is not to tunnels as such but to the Grand Central Terminal approach on Manhattan Island.


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The Electrification Law
Chapter 901 of the Laws of 1923, an amendment to the Public Service Law (chapter 480 of the Laws of 1910), prohibits steam operation in the entire City effective 1 January 1926:

"No railroad corporation, operating a railroad or part thereof within the limits of a city of the first class having a population by the last state or federal census of one million or more, shall on or after the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, use any motive power in the operation of such railroad or part thereof within the limits of such city, except electricity to be generated, transmitted and used in such operation in a manner to be approved by the public service commission." The two other sentences provide for the Public Service Commission to approve the equipment and state that the law is in effect immediately, that is, as of 2 June 1923 when it was passed. New York is the only city meeting the description, but laws are required to be written generically.

The above, forming the new section 53a of the Public Service Law, was amended twice. Chapter 626 Laws of 1924 adds "or within the limits of a city adjoining such city", which describes Yonkers, Mount Vernon, and possibly New Rochelle. Chapter 845 Laws of 1926 adds that the Public Service Commission may, after a public hearing, extend the deadline to no later than "five years after the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-six" (apparently hedging against the possibility of a different calendar being adopted before 1 January 1931 ?).

This law was repealed by Chapter 789 Laws of 1930. Section 53a is still listed in the Consolidated Laws under Public Service Law, as a repealed section.

In his book The Port of New York, Carl Condit mentions that the Public Service Commission held that use of diesel electric power was sufficient to meet the requirements, and that this is why some of the dock railroads began to use such engines during the time the law was in effect. Condit also attributes the electrification of the New York Central west side freight line to the law, although since that was accomplished after 1930, it must be that other factors, such as getting the line off the street surface, were just as important. According to company information in Moody's Railroad Manual, the Staten Island Rapid Transit Railway electrified its lines in 1925 because of this law, but again it seems that other factors were really behind it, since electrification of the SIRT was being considered at least as early as 1920, just on practical grounds for a railroad with frequent service and short distances between stations.


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There appears to be no law specifically applicable to, say, operating steam engines into Penn Station, but laws not directly about railroads could come into play. The resulting poor air quality for example would probably violate laws about public health and workplace conditions.

--Joseph Brennan

copyright 1994, 1999.