Dumb question? Why risk lives with underground coal mining in WV when you have plenty of coal in WY?

[Anonymous]

It would seem that Underground Mining is obsolete and that strip mines out west produce more coal and are less labor intensive. Is there something special about WV coal? (Use in metalugry ect?)

[Anonymous]

TerminalTower asketh:

"Is there something special about WV coal? (Use in metalugry ect?)"

Yes. WV (Appalachian) coal has always been better for metallurgical uses, and is better steam coal than Western coal. The reason Western coal is selling well is that it's cheap (part of the reason for that is that it's strip mined) and usually has a lower sulfur content which makes it more satisfactory for some customers.

Old Timer

[Anonymous]

By how much are we talking here? Last check coal was like 80.00 a ton?
How many tons per miner are we talking here? When you take the BTUs and the energy to mine and ship the coal how much are you realy on top? Compared to OIL and other Biomass?

[UPTRAIN]

Wyoming coal is nothing like West Virgina coal, different power plants use different types of coal.

[route_rock]

Better BTU's same as the coal in southern Illinois. We have runa train out of Centralia to the west of this coal to mix in with some powder river coal at a power plant. Its a rare move but some power plants mix coal of higher sulphur with powder river coal.
You bring up less labor intensive now heres my question. What are you going to do with those miners? I mean if you ran them out of a job by making their jobs obsolete or banning high sulphur coal. Seriously they cant all work for wal mart.
Being a Coal miner is like being a firefighter a railroader or a member of the military. You may die doing your job. Its tough and dangerous but hey what else are you going to do for that amount of money?

[miniwyo]

Underground mining is nowhere near obsolete. Actually the Bridger Coal Company, whic is the main supplying mine for the Jim Bridger Power Plant near Point of Rocks has just completed the transition from strip mining to underground mining. And yes Wyoming may have plenty of coal, However, Wyoming coal is cleaner burning, but has low BTUs, which is why Appalcian coal is better for making steam, it has more sulpher and burns hotter, but the added sulpher creates more emissions, and the chemicals that are released is what makes Acid Rain. So I think it is safe to say that some companies will mix the 2 types of coal and get a different combonation BTUs and Emissions.

Also I think another reason we have a more strip mines out here and more underground mines back there is becasue there are less people here so they have space to expand theese strip mines, where as back there with all the towns and people, you can't do that.

Underground mines aren't really as good as strip mines either. Strip mines are able to make the land almost exactly as it was when they found it, all be it a small bit lower in elevation. Where as you look at the ongoing problem we are having to deal with here in Rock Springs, we have empty mine shafts under the whole town, They are constantly pumping cement into them to hold up the buildings on top. A few years back, there was a house down the street that had the garage sink 18" in a matter of seconds. Also we have at least 1 sinkhole in downtown streets a year. About 8 years ago it happened under the UP mainline, it sunk out from under the whole center line plus about half of the other 2 lines. Theese all had to be grouted and then fixed over the top. To grout them they drill a 4" hole and pump in a cement mix into a cone shape and this cone will hold up the surrounding area for a certian distance around it. and this seems to work best.
But it is safer for the future residents of the area to be strip mined.

[Anonymous]

The Economy will asorb them elsewhere.

[UPTRAIN]

QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock

Better BTU's same as the coal in southern Illinois. We have runa train out of Centralia to the west of this coal to mix in with some powder river coal at a power plant. Its a rare move but some power plants mix coal of higher sulphur with powder river coal.
You bring up less labor intensive now heres my question. What are you going to do with those miners? I mean if you ran them out of a job by making their jobs obsolete or banning high sulphur coal. Seriously they cant all work for wal mart.
Being a Coal miner is like being a firefighter a railroader or a member of the military. You may die doing your job. Its tough and dangerous but hey what else are you going to do for that amount of money?

Well said!

[Tim Burton]

Let's look at this in persective. It is safer to mine coal than it is to work at a convience store.

Also, let's bring back Anthracite as an industry and SAVE SCRANTON!

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TerminalTower

The Economy will asorb them elsewhere.

asorb them where?.. you have to keep in mind that in alot of the coal fields of the appilatia (sp?) reagon...its work in the coal mine or some min wage job somewhere else...and i dont know about you..but unless you want to live on the brink of starvation or work 3 min wage jobs to suport a family... ..thier are NO jobs or job opportintes in the reagon to be "absobed" into that will pay what they get payed as miners....... and dont give me the if they want to work they can relocate... its kinda hard to relocate if you dont have any money to relocate with becouse you where layed off from the mines...
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

A power station manager once told me that trying to get Wyoming coal to burn hot is like trying to burn dirt. I would think that cost savings between Western coal and Eastern coal kind of even out, because they have to add so much to WY. coal to get it burning hot enough.

[mackb4]

I agree with csxengineer98.The job market just isn't there in the appalachian coal fields.I run to Williamson WVa and it is the main reason for the whole community.If coal wasn't mined in the coal fiels of KY,VA and WVa,there would just not be enough coal to supply the country,and maybe the world.When I hired on in 1991,the NS reports showed we hauled 40,000+ carloads of coal a week.Today we haul about 15,000-18,000 a week.Coal business was really shaken up when Australia undercut the U.S. coal companies by $4.00 a ton.Don't sound like alot,but times that by hundreds of millions of tons each year since about 1996,and that's alot of money.It took thousands of jobs away from WVa alone.Not to mention all the companies that are supported by those jobs,and the service jobs,and taxes.So see why we mine coal deep in the ground.It would put all those affected by it in the ground.Yes eastern coal is better in btu ratings.Oh the local papers advertise for coal miners all the time in Williamson.Union miners have one if not the best retirement plans,of the blue collar industry.

[Modelcar]

.........Different kind of coal and West Virginian's need job's too.....It's pretty big business too as I believe about 16,000 persons are employed as such.....

[Modelcar]

....And strip mining occurs in W Va too....As for the economy absorbing miners into other work...Just take a trip through much of W Va and note the terrain...It is rugged country and not much beyond {for the masses}, in the form of employment available....
In some cases where deep mining occurs that is the only way to extract the coal as the ground cover is too deep to do strip mining.....

[fievel]

My grandfather was a West Virginia coalminer, back before the gov't. "cared"
about mine safety. He died of black lung before I was born. [sigh]
Deep mines are mean and nasty. They steal lives from young miners
and old miners, as well. He wasn't working there for a big paycheck,
because he sure didn't get much money. And he certainly didn't mine
coal for his health. That coal mine slowly took his health from him.
I feel sorry for all the poor Joes who either risk their life, or risk their
families going hungry.
As long as there is a demand for Eastern coal, there will always be
men, and even a few women who will work hard to fill that demand.

My hat is off to them. They are doing a great service for us all.
Including the Western mines.[tup]

[rrandb]

The decision to strip VS tunnel is usually based on the geogrphy where the coal veins are located. I have seen strips go 1/4 mile deep but much deeper and you tunnel. If WV could strip its usually cheaper but not always practical. There are miners families whose father's, grandfather's, and great-grandfather's died from the mine (black lung). Just try and get them to take a different job. These men start work knowing they may die. The wellfare and financial security of there family's come first and not there personel risk. The odds of them working in any other trade is slim unless the mine closes and there are no other mines to go to.. [2c] As always ENJOY

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TerminalTower

The Economy will asorb them elsewhere.

You can only keep thinking that way for so long, eventually you reach a point where real men begin to feel uncomfortable having to say "would you like any fries with that, or how about a hot apple pie?"

As far as the "why risk lives" question you posted originally, well evidently the people who own the mines as well as the people who work in them have decided that doing so is worth it to them, which is really all that matters..

The opinions of a bunch of lookers on watching the ocassional disaster on the tv news and deciding to play monday morning quarterback doesn't put food on their table, but the mine does.

Tough decision, huh?

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NS2317

A power station manager once told me that trying to get Wyoming coal to burn hot is like trying to burn dirt. I would think that cost savings between Western coal and Eastern coal kind of even out, because they have to add so much to WY. coal to get it burning hot enough.

To say nothing of transporting it accross three time zones . . . .

[Anonymous]

Long Live the Miners. Surface or Underground.

I forsee a potential for deep ocean mining of minerals in various parts of the world someday.

I am offended that the idea that these men will be content making 5.15 an hour working a Mc Dee's because there is no real jobs out there. If the pay is good, people will do the job however dangerous it is.

I see that others have quite amply answered the other issues related to coal.

Coal Mining is dangerous, yes but we only suffer a few dozen casulties a year compared to the hundreds of shootings and crime related to conveince store people nation wide.

[Anonymous]

Well everyone can't buy WY Coal so some utilites have to get WV Coal and it is better in a few cases then WY Coal. Minning is a risk just like most heavy labor in this world.

[route_rock]

Hell getting out of bed n the morning is dangerous. I can get killed at work, or walking across the street and having a disgruntled absorbed by Mc Dees guy run me down cause hes ticked at the world and been ona drinking binge.
Here it is if it were not for mining in W Virginia there wouldnt be anybody in them hollars.

[markpierce]

Yeah, it is even dangerous being a desk jockey. For instance, the agency I once worked for, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), has had a high death rate on the job. Although the agency has only some 10,000 employees, an airplance carrying a score or more employees from a training session died in a plane crash. And the largest number of federal employees who were murdered in the Oklahoma City bombing were from HUD too.

[Anonymous]

If we really belive in capitilism,,,Then the efficiancys of western coal and alternitive fuels will be translated into ecommic prospertys elsewere in the economy such as computers and higher education

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TerminalTower

If we really belive in capitilism,,,Then the efficiancys of western coal and alternitive fuels will be translated into ecommic prospertys elsewere in the economy such as computers and higher education

I heard that somebody got in a wreck in their car on the highway.....why do we still have cars?

[Anonymous]

Computers do not mean prosperity and higher standard of living. If you knew anything about computers in the 80's and 90's you were truly in demand and treated as a King.

Now these days your tech support call might be answered in Bombay India for the sake of the almighty dollar.

There are some jobs you just cannot outsource or export overseas. Coal Mining is one of these. Power and Light is vital to USA and God bless our miners who make it possible.

[BaltACD]

While it is of little consolation to those that were lost in the Sago Mine explosion, coal mining in the US has never been safer than it is today. In years gone by mine disasters were relatively common for a variety of reasons. Today between OSHA and other regulatory bodies most of the causes of those disasters of yesteryear have been regulated out of existance by increased safety standards.

However, mining will never be a 'safe' occupation. Working uderground and with heavy equipment will always be fraught with danger.

[adrianspeeder]

Here we go with the 24hour news media now focused on something they know jack about, but will sensationalize it to make money in ads, as per usual...

All you got to do is drive through, visit, have family, or live in any Appalacia hard/soft coal towns to understand it is a way of life that has risks just like anything.

Adrianspeeder

[Anonymous]

For the record, it is technically cheaper to process strip-mined PRB coal into a higher BTU/low moisture product than it is to mine Eastern US underground coal. The reason is that PRB coals are so cheap to begin with relative to Eastern coals, that the added costs of processing PRB coals into higher value coal products is still less expensive than raw Eastern coals. The big problem with such synthetic coals is an inability to transport the product in regular coal gons due to spontaneous combustion of the product. If and when that problem is ever worked out, "value-added" PRB coal products will be less expensive per mmBtu than Appalachian coals.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

For the record, it is technically cheaper to process strip-mined PRB coal into a higher BTU/low moisture product than it is to mine Eastern US underground coal. The reason is that PRB coals are so cheap to begin with relative to Eastern coals, that the added costs of processing PRB coals into higher value coal products is still less expensive than raw Eastern coals. The big problem with such synthetic coals is an inability to transport the product in regular coal gons due to spontaneous combustion of the product. If and when that problem is ever worked out, "value-added" PRB coal products will be less expensive per mmBtu than Appalachian coals.

How is that done? Is it very common?

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

For the record, it is technically cheaper to process strip-mined PRB coal into a higher BTU/low moisture product than it is to mine Eastern US underground coal. The reason is that PRB coals are so cheap to begin with relative to Eastern coals, that the added costs of processing PRB coals into higher value coal products is still less expensive than raw Eastern coals. The big problem with such synthetic coals is an inability to transport the product in regular coal gons due to spontaneous combustion of the product. If and when that problem is ever worked out, "value-added" PRB coal products will be less expensive per mmBtu than Appalachian coals.

I am not going to dispute your assertion that the PRB coal can get a btu boost by some process, but market conditions have more of an impact on the source of coal. There is a substantial amount of eastern coal with sulphur content low enough to meet emission needs. If demand boosts prices to the point where it is profitable, eastern coal is going to come out of the ground.

Appearantly coal prices have moved up. I think I saw somewhere that the price on PRB coal has more than doubled, and between production problems and the well known BNSF track problems they are not meeting demand. Beside that issue, I suspect the the big jump in natural gas prices have the utilitites running coal fired power plants at maximum levels in an effort to keep usage of NG as low as possible. Both of these conditions have probably put upward pressure on prices.

The safety issue? With due respect to the families of the miners that died this week, safety and operating regulations, such as keeping the mine properly ventalated, go very far to reducing casualties. There is always the danger of working around big machinery, but as our railroad operating friends understand, situational awareness i.e., paying attention to what is happening, has much to do with getting home sound.

Jay