N & W The Norfolk and Western

[Murphy Siding]

From what I've read of Stuart Saunders, you wonder if there were two of him? At N&W, he earned some acclaim for being a successfull merger architect. Then he goes to PRR, and doesn't do so well at the merger game. (to say the least). He was named businessman of the year in 1968, by a business magazine. I bet that in 1970, they could have recinded that honor.

[samfp1943]

Old Timer and others:
The info in this thread is pretty awsome. Good reading and a lot of questions answered.
Thanks,
Sam

[daveklepper]

Judging by diesel failures en route, I'd say the NYC was better managed. Even thought its route was a bit more prone to blizzards, engine failures (diesels, not steam) were far more common on the PRR than on the NYC in freight service.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943

Old Timer and others:
The info in this thread is pretty awsome. Good reading and a lot of questions answered.
Thanks,
Sam

Sam: Could you e-mail me please? I have a question for you. Thanks

[Anonymous]

Murphy Siding asketh:

"From what I've read of Stuart Saunders, you wonder if there were two of him?"

On the N&W he didn't have to run the railroad, as has been noted. He just planned and set up the mergers.

When he went to PC there were no more mergers to plan and set up. But he did have to run the railroad. And he had nobody that would help him do that, like he had on N&W.

Old Timer

[Modelcar]

...When side rods on the "J's" were interchanged from heavy "war time rods" and replaced with "light alloy", wasn't it necessary to replace the wheels / counter weights as well....?

[Murphy Siding]

In order for the N&W to have done steam so good, for so long, they must have had a mechanical department that was second to none. Was most of this talent home grown? Whenever the early days of EMD is mentioned, *** Dilworth's genius seems to be given center stage. Did N&W have someone of that stature in the mechanical dept.?
Flip side: Being as good at steam as N&W was, did they have any *flops*, or perhaps some locomotives that didn't live up to expectations of the designers?
Thanks

[nanaimo73]

How did the N&W buy their coal ?
Was this done through long term contracts with a small number of mines ?

Did the size of the coal matter ?
Would the mines have to make sure the chunks were not to big ?

[Murphy Siding]

Did coal from different on-line mines have different steaming(is that the word?) qualities, so that a locomotive designer @N&W had to have a certain mine in mind, when building a locomotive?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Did coal from different on-line mines have different steaming(is that the word?) qualities, so that a locomotive designer @N&W had to have a certain mine in mind, when building a locomotive?

Murph< If I didn't know better I'd say you either read a good article in Trains a few years ago about utility coal or you work for an electric generating company or its Ilk. ---PL

[Anonymous]

Modelcar asks:

"...When side rods on the "J's" were interchanged from heavy "war time rods" and replaced with "light alloy", wasn't it necessary to replace the wheels / counter weights as well....?"

The wheels didn't have to be replaced. The counterweight covers were welded over the cavities in the back of the wheel, and the cavities could be opened to adjust the weights.

MurphySiding - all N&W's engineering talent was homegrown in that it wasn't recruited from any outside company, at least after the reorganization of the railroad in 1896. The names to remember chronologically are W. H. Lewis, John A. Pilcher, H. W. Reynolds, Charles Faris and Gurdon (not Gordon) McGavock; in the testing department were H. W. Coddington, I. N. Moseley and John Pilcher's son Robert M. These were the leaders of a very talented group of men, and from about 1915 on they were responsible for N&W's locomotive and freight car designs. Jeffries' new and revised N&W - Giant of Steam (just out) goes into some detail about the designs, and King's The A - N&W's Mercedes of Steam (in process of being revised and expanded) has information about N&W's designers from interviews with Voyce Glaze, who was N&W's last Mechanical Engineer, and was in the engineering office from 1922.

N&W did have one lemon, the K-3 4-8-2 of 1926. Evidently, someone desired an answer to Lima's 2-8-4. The K-3 had certain design characteristics that made it impossible to counterbalance properly, and was thus hard on track. The engine was a fine steamer, but was never satisfactory. It was designed during the reign of a Superintendent of Motive Power named Alexander Kearney, and IMHO the K-3 was more Kearney's engine than Pilcher's. Kearney busied himself with the business of the Mechanical Engineer's office; his successor was R. G. Henley, who let the engineers alone. Henley's successer was C. E. Pond, who did likewise.

Old Timer

[Anonymous]

nanaimo73 asks:

"How did the N&W buy their coal ?
Was this done through long term contracts with a small number of mines ?

Did the size of the coal matter ?
Would the mines have to make sure the chunks were not to big ?"

N&W owned some of its own mines, and contracted for the rest of its coal with mines whose coal had the required BTU content as well as other characteristics. One of N&W's mines dumped coal via overhead bucket conveyor right into the coal wharf at Williamson.

And yes - like in other considerations, size matters! But coal could be sized for stokers at the mine, and shipped ready for use; stoker-sized coal was good for the shovel-fired engines, too.

Old Timer

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Did coal from different on-line mines have different steaming(is that the word?) qualities, so that a locomotive designer @N&W had to have a certain mine in mind, when building a locomotive?

Murph< If I didn't know better I'd say you either read a good article in Trains a few years ago about utility coal or you work for an electric generating company or its Ilk. ---PL

Yikes! Don't put me in that galaxy![:0]. I work for an old lumberyard. Years ago, the old owner was telling me about the good old days, when the yard also sold 47 varieties of coal. When I said I thought he was pulling my leg, he gave me a lesson about the importance of different burning qualities (and prices) of coal they had sold. It was quite interesting, in a "something I'll never need to know again" sort of way. That's what made me wonder about the different coal as it pertains to locomotives. And yet, the usefull things I learn,I seem to forget.[;)]

[Modelcar]

...I didn't realize the counter weight adjustments would have been "add on's"...but that makes sense....Thanks, Old Timer.

[Anonymous]

Modelcar sayeth:

"...I didn't realize the counter weight adjustments would have been "add on's"...but that makes sense....Thanks, Old Timer."

In volume 3 of his RAILS REMEMBERED series, Louis Newton has a photo of an N&W S-1a 0-8-0 driving wheel face down on the foundry floor. The counterweight pockets are very visible.

Like many of the steam locomotive "details" this is not visible from an exterior inspection.

Old Timer

[Modelcar]

....I take your word for it...No problem. As said earlier...when they added the heavier rods during the war, I suppose they did everthing they could to prevent using a different wheel set....and just cured the problem by adding the removable weights....and that I noted, it "made sense"....Maybe it even made the balance just a bit better in dynamic by stretching the weight more across the width of the wheel. As to just curing the static balance.

[Murphy Siding]

With N&W being famous for retaining steam for so long, were they good at preserving some of their locomotives for future generations?

[nanaimo73]

Did the N&W use a lot of auxiliary tenders to cut down on water stops ? Were the tenders for the As and the Ys desined to go two water stops for each coal stop ?

[NW_611]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

With N&W being famous for retaining steam for so long, were they good at preserving some of their locomotives for future generations?

I'd almost suggest that the answer to that was 'no'. With the exception of a bunch of locomotive carcasses stashed in a Roanoke scrap yard, ten still exist. 611 survived, from what I understand, because Robert Claytor bugged Stuart T. Saunders not to scrap it; one of the Class Ys exists 'cause it was a stationary steam generator for Union Carbide in West Virginia, and the like. The disposal of steam locomotives on the N&W seem to have been considered a viable revenue source.

[Anonymous]

nanaimo73 asketh:

"Did the N&W use a lot of auxiliary tenders to cut down on water stops?"

Yes. They had well over 100 auxiliary tenders that eliminated water stops on several disricts. It was not necessary for heavy tonnage trains to stop for water between Columbus or Cincinnati and Portsmouth; between Portsmouth and Williamson; between Williamson and Bluefield, between Bluefield and Roanoke, etc. (both directions, of course).

NW_611 - the three engines used by Union Carbide were not Ys; they were As, of which the 1218 was one. I believe the other two were 1202 and 1230.

Old Timer

[NW_611]

Well then, I'm just bloody wrong all over the map today. First the PRSL and now this. steamlocomotive.com says that Nelson Blount got 1218 "complete" by using parts from 1202 and 1208. OK, so how'd that pair of Ys survive?

[ericmanke]

Question for you N&W peeps. Do any of you know when the N&W started disposing
its Geeps? Or I guess when they were placed in storage? I'm having trouble trying to find the dispositions of GP18s. I know a few of them went to Carolina Southern.
Did NS use these as trade in fodder, or were they just simply retired and scrapped. Any info would be appreciated.

Eric

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericmanke

Question for you N&W peeps. Do any of you know when the N&W started disposing
its Geeps? Or I guess when they were placed in storage? I'm having trouble trying to find the dispositions of GP18s. I know a few of them went to Carolina Southern.
Did NS use these as trade in fodder, or were they just simply retired and scrapped. Any info would be appreciated.

Eric

Several of the GP18s went to the OTVR, Otter Tail Valley Railroad in Minnesota.
If you aren't already may I suggest that you join the LocoNotes yahoogroup, the home for wayward builder number collectors.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericmanke

Question for you N&W peeps. Do any of you know when the N&W started disposing
its Geeps? Or I guess when they were placed in storage? I'm having trouble trying to find the dispositions of GP18s. I know a few of them went to Carolina Southern.
Did NS use these as trade in fodder, or were they just simply retired and scrapped. Any info would be appreciated.

Eric

Several of the GP18s went to the OTVR, Otter Tail Valley Railroad in Minnesota.
If you aren't already may I suggest that you join the LocoNotes yahoogroup, the home for wayward builder number collectors.

This site may be of use to you-
http://www.trainweb.org/emdloco/index.html

[ericmanke]

Thanks for the info. I found the dispositions of the 2 GP18s I was researching. Now for question #2. What is that white line that I've seen under the road# on many N&W units? I've seen it on Geeps, RSs, C420s, but I cannot figure out what it means. Any help guys?

Eric

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericmanke

Thanks for the info. I found the dispositions of the 2 GP18s I was researching. Now for question #2. What is that white line that I've seen under the road# on many N&W units? I've seen it on Geeps, RSs, C420s, but I cannot figure out what it means. Any help guys?

Eric

It means that the locomotive does not have Alignment Control Couplers.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericmanke

Thanks for the info. I found the dispositions of the 2 GP18s I was researching. Now for question #2. What is that white line that I've seen under the road# on many N&W units? I've seen it on Geeps, RSs, C420s, but I cannot figure out what it means. Any help guys?

Eric

It means that the locomotive does not have Alignment Control Couplers.

And what are those?

[beaulieu]

Murphy, couplers can pivot about their pin (swing). Alignment control is a system to control
but not eliminate coupler swing. This helps keep things in line when derailments happen. It also helps with slack run ins, and when a pusher is used. Switching locomotives normally don't have Alignment Control couplers because it can be hard to couple to cars on curved trackage, and they may have to deal with severe curveature in Industry switching which isn't found on the mainline. Normally when a locomotive without Alignment Control couplers is moved in a train it either must be position between locomotives with A-C couplers, or the coupler must be blocked to limit coupler swing.

[Anonymous]

N_W611 asks:

"OK, so how'd that pair of Ys survive?"

The 2156 (Y-6a) was donated by the N&W upon retirement directly to the museum at St. Louis.

I'm not too sure about the history of the 2050; I believe it was used by an industry for steam supply, and then donated to the Illinois Railway Museum.

Old Timer

[nanaimo73]

Did the N&W and the PRR do a lot of interchange at Hagerstown, Maryland during the 1950s and 1960s, and was there a lot of through traffic on the Shenandoah line between Roanoke and Hagerstown ?