N & W The Norfolk and Western

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

The 1964 merger took in Wabash,Nickel Plate and Pittsburgh&West Virginia. It would seem that these 3 roads were not "coal roads". Was this merger done to expand the reach of N&W, or to alter the mix of traffic? Surely, these were friendly connections before the merger? At the time, wasn't N&W in pretty good shape, so that merger wasn't a neccesity, the way NYC and PRR thought theirs was? Thanks

Yes, the merger was done to alter the traffic mix of the N&W. No the N&W did not directly connect with any of the roads listed, they had to buy a section of Pennsylvania Railroad to connect to their new acquisitions. BTW both NKP and P&WV hauled and originated coal out of the coal fields in eastern Ohio.

[Murphy Siding]

The 1964 merger took in Wabash,Nickel Plate and Pittsburgh&West Virginia. It would seem that these 3 roads were not "coal roads". Was this merger done to expand the reach of N&W, or to alter the mix of traffic? Surely, these were friendly connections before the merger? At the time, wasn't N&W in pretty good shape, so that merger wasn't a neccesity, the way NYC and PRR thought theirs was? Thanks

[Anonymous]

nanaimo73 asketh:

"Why was the Wabash included in the 1964 merger?"

NKP had the best route east to Buffalo, but the Wabash was best to St. Louis. Plus, the Wabash was the only eastern carrier (that went east of Chicago) that had a line to Kansas City. The two routes complimented each other, and were naturals to go together. Wabash had much more automobile traffic than NKP.

Old Timer

[daveklepper]

Well trained, professional, hard-headed railroaders. Always had huge respect for the N&W from teenage on. And it was the N&W and D&RGW (similar style management) that proved to me the dieselization was an economic blessing and not the result of sales pitches, because these railroaders could not be bought to do their jobs in unprofessional manners and knew enough to resist any sales pitch that wasn't full of facts and figures that made sense.

[Murphy Siding]

I've read some things about N&W that imply that they simply *got lucky*, by way of being a conveyer belt for coal from mines to tidewater. (It appears to me, that they did quite well at that too!) Yet, N&W seemed to have transformed into much more than a coal-hauler, without missing many steps along the way. Any thoughts about how N&W successfully changed, when so many other railroads failed?

[nanaimo73]

Thanks for the answers, Old Timer.
Why was the Wabash included in the 1964 merger ?
Had the N&W been trying to get it for awhile, or did they take it because the PRR had it up for sale ?

[Anonymous]

beaulieu:

N&W bought five PRR class K3 Pacifics in 1930 to replace their class J Atlantics operating between Norfolk and Petersburg and Richmond (via ACL). The K3s had 80" drivers. This was a specialized engine for a specialized service, and since the K3s were available, why should N&W have designed and built an engine for that service? I'm certain they got 'em cheap . . .

nanaimo73 -

I'm not certain Saunders got a lot of credit for the way he ran N&W; he was a merger architect, and a good one, and he was there at the right time. He had a cadre of extremely capable transportation and operating and mechanical and engineering officers to run the railroad for him while he put together the N&W-Wab-NKP merger. Fans blame him for the quick N&W dieselization, but that was going to happen no matter who sat in the President's chair. The time had come, and nothing was going to stop it.

He ran into problems when he went to PennCentral. He could not rely on the PC people to run the railroad for him, and they didn't - all the NYC people wanted to do was fight with the PRR people, and vice versa. Of course, by that time, I don't think anything could have saved PC. One problem was that they had to divest their N&W stock, the dividends from which had paid them over $400 million dollars since 1901. There was no way to replace that income.

Herman Pevler was an empty suit who'd come from the PRR to the Wabash, and became president of the post-merger N&W by prior agreement. He benefited from the same group of folks that ran the railroad for Saunders. Pevler got to be at mandatory retirement age, and kept getting extensions from the Board of Directors, until ousted by a palace coup and replaced by John Fishwick.

Old Timer

[nanaimo73]

Old Timer-
Stuart Saunders got a lot of credit for the way he ran the N&W, and then a lot of the blame for what happened when he ran the Penn Central.
Does he deserve both, or was it that the N&W was easy to run and PC was impossible ?

Do you have any thoughts on his replacement at N&W ?
He came from the Wabash, and I believe his name was Herman Pelver.
I can't recall reading anything about him.

Could you, or Big Jim, have a look at this-
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=54409

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Did N&W get any steam engines through mergers? If so, how did they compare to N&W's own home-grown designs?
Thanks

The only steam engines to come to the N&W by merger, came in the very early days, before WWI, back in that era the N&W was not the icon of steam that they later became. Of course there is the one enigma that proves the rule, the N&W did buy one batch of post WW1 secondhand steam locomotives, the 5 Class E-3 Pacifics were bought from parent Pennsy. They were built as Pennsy Class K-3 Pacifics, the predecessor to Pennsy's K-4 Pacifics and had similar specs, except for 72" Drivers. They were built in 1913, and were bought in 1930. Depression economics caused the purchase.

[Anonymous]

Murph asketh:

"Did N&W get any steam engines through mergers? If so, how did they compare to N&W's own home-grown designs?
Thanks"

There were still some VGN engines physically on the property at merger date in 1959, but all had been retired before then and were soon sold for scrap. Some of the Blue Ridges, Berks and if I'm not mistaken a couple of the Pacifics and 0-8-0s were still around. It must be understood that at that date, very little N&W steam was still around.

The last non-excursion road steam operated out of Roanoke was an A on an eastbound in May, 1959. Some yard jobs drew steam power after that, but not many and not for long. So no N&W steam was around to operate over the VGN lines after the merger.

Old Timer

[Murphy Siding]

Did N&W get any steam engines through mergers? If so, how did they compare to N&W's own home-grown designs?
Thanks

[coalminer3]

Old Timer and others. I have really enjoyed reading through the material on this thread -my compliments to all involved.

The N&W had some up-to-date infrastructure to maintain their steam power as well. I am thinking specifically of the "lubritoriums" and the way that their power was moved through these facilities.

BTW, I remember NKP SDs working at Elmore in the late 70's. They still had NKP trust plates attached.

work safe

[waltersrails]

ditto

[Anonymous]

Diesel failures on N&W, at least in the '60's, were rare. In 1964 some were surprised to find that both NKP and Wabash had high standards of diesel maintenance, too.

Old Timer

[Murphy Siding]

There is no doubt that the N&W is famous for having seemingly the best steam power and mechanical department. What happened to the *steam people* at a railroad when their specialty disappeared? Did they become *diesel people*? Or retire? Over a 15 year period, it would appear a lot of steam motive power experts became unneeded?

[daveklepper]

Again, the modern Virginian electrics served five railroads: Virginian, Norfolk and Western, Neew York New Haven and Hartford, Penn Central, and Conrail.

On another thread, I've commented that diesel engine failures in service were almost unknown on the Boston and Maine. I think this was true of the both the Santa Fe and the New York Central, but my observations were not as thorough. They were more common on the UP, SP, WP, and PRR. Did they occur on the N&W? I would hope and expect the answer would be very rarely.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Does that mean that EB N&W coal trains had to trade power at each end of the electrified section-like PRR had to do at Harrisburg?

Yes

[Anonymous]

Asketh Murphy Siding:

"What happened to Virginian's big honkin' motor-generator electrics? Did they go to N&W for a while, before being sold off?
Thanks"

They were all scrapped. The first was retired at Mullens in July, 1961, the others retired at Roanoke in June 1962. They were VGN class EL-2b. The rectifiers (class EL-3a) were all sold to the New Haven after being retired in June, 1962.

Old Timer

[Murphy Siding]

What happened to Virginian's big honkin' motor-generator electrics? Did they go to N&W for a while, before being sold off?
Thanks

[Murphy Siding]

Does that mean that EB N&W coal trains had to trade power at each end of the electrified section-like PRR had to do at Harrisburg?

[beaulieu]

The electrics were used as road locomotives. The N&W's electrification of Flattop Mountain (Elkhorn Grade) was to move EB coal trains. At the summit was a single track tunnel (Coaldale Tunnel). EB coal trains were being hauled by Class Z-1 Mallets and the congestion and problems with smoke in the tunnel caused the N&W to electrify the line west from Bluefield to Iaeger, WV in 1915. Merchandise trains and Passenger trains contiued to be steam hauled. The line was electrified at 11Kv/25 hz. , the same as the Pennsy
used. No Commercial power was available so the N&W built their own powerplant, later the N&W and Virginian tied their systems together for more efficiency. After WW2 with the powerplant and electric locomotives getting old and requiring great expense to maintain along with increased EB coal traffic, the N&W looked at either expanding the electrification or abandoning it. The decision was taken to do a major line relocation and bore a new tunnel at a lower elevation reducing the EB ruling grade on the Elkhorn with this N&W's Y6 Mallets replaced the electrics on the mountain. The electrification was abandoned in 1950. The Virginian was acquired in 1959 so the N&W never operated both electrifications at the same time. The Virginian had acquired new electric locomotives in both the 40's and the 50's but their powerplant was begin to suffer the higher operating expenses that caused the N&W to abandon their electrification. In 1962 the N&W abandoned the former VGN electrification and sold the near new EL-C rectifier electrics to the New Haven.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Did the N&W study electrification during the late 1950's when the merger with the Virginian was being planned ?

Both the N&W and the Virginian had short electrifications over their toughest grades.

N&W considered extending the electrification, but the economics just didn't work out
The Virginian even had 12 modern rectifier electrics Class EL-C. N&W wrecked one following the takeover of the Virginian, and then following the removal of the electrification the 11 survivors were sold to the New Haven as their model E33C most of them survived to the Conrail era.

Were the electrics used soley for helpers, or were they used on road hauls accross the electrified lines? What caused them to be phased out? Am i right in guessing that they were replaced by N&W's first GPs?
Thanks

[daveklepper]

As reported in the Trains article on the Virginian's electrics, after the merger the two parallel main lines were used as one double track railroad, with grades determining directional flow. So either massive additional electrification or scrapping what was there was the choice. Possibly if railroads didn't have to pay real estate taxes and power companies would provide the electrification paid for out of current charges, expanding the electrification would have made sense. But the merger occured in the diesel era, and the economies and flexibility of dieselization made many railroaders call it "instant electrification." The N&W did investigate the matter, including electrification all the way to the Atlantic Shore.

I've always said the N&W steamers were the very best. Why would they go shopping for second-hand power when they had the best? The C&O 0-8-0 was the exception that proved the rule. You are right about the C&O and N&W having similar but not identacle needs. The Y-5 and Y-6 would have done far better for the C&O coal drags than the obsolete Mallets the C&O continued to used and also far better than the Allegainies, which were really a poor match for the service, more like the N&W A's, but even there the N&W A was a more economical performer on merchandize runs.

Also, much of the steam technology of the N&W duplicated what was true about diesels. A high degree of standardization (also true of PRR to a large degree) and run through service bays with specialized tools.

To me, the dieselization of the N&W was the final proof the diesel was superior to steam for USA railroading.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Did the N&W study electrification during the late 1950's when the merger with the Virginian was being planned ?

Both the N&W and the Virginian had short electrifications over their toughest grades.

N&W considered extending the electrification, but the economics just didn't work out
The Virginian even had 12 modern rectifier electrics Class EL-C. N&W wrecked one following the takeover of the Virginian, and then following the removal of the electrification the 11 survivors were sold to the New Haven as their model E33C most of them survived to the Conrail era.

[nanaimo73]

Did the N&W study electrification during the late 1950's when the merger with the Virginian was being planned ?

[beaulieu]

One thing a lot of younger fans don't understand is how important the Railroad's own mechanical personel were in the design of new Steam Locomotives. The most important new designs in the Twentieth Century were all designed by Railroad Mechanical staff rather than the Locomotive Builders. Both Alco's A. W. Bruce and Lima's Will Woodard contributed good ideas to locomotive design, but it was Railroad Chief Mechanical Officers and their staffs who created the signature locomotives. For example New York Central's Paul Kiefer is responsible for the design of the first Hudson type, and also NYC's Mohawks, and Niagaras. Nickle Plate's outstanding Berkshires are the work of Gus Ayers and the AMC, as was the C&O's T-1 Texas type. and the K-4 Kanawha. The UP's FEF 4-8-4s, Challengers, and Big Boys were designed by Otto Jabelmann. The Alleghany Types were designed after the breakup of the Van Swearingen roads and the deaths of two of the brightest members of the AMC.

[Anonymous]

Well said Old Timer, testimony of a truthfull sort is always a refreshing occurance. - PL

[Anonymous]

Testifieth Big Jim:

"Another way N&W folks spoke of engines between themselves was by the "Hunerd" system! The A's were 12 Hunerds, the J's were 6 Hunerds, the Y's were 20 or 21 Hunerds, the SD45's were 17 or 18 Hunerds and so on and so forth ."

Actually, if you got an ol' South Side Virginian with a head full of snot, it sounded more like "honnids".

Dave Ingles of trains had a discussion some years ago about how C&O guys pronounced the name of their 2700-series 2-8-4 Kanawhas. Several folks weighed in with their versions (Kan-aw, Kan-aw-ah, Kan-aw-y, etc.), but the one that ended the discussion was the guy who said what they really called them was "twenny-seven-hunnerds" (no South Side Virginians there).

Murph sayeth: "I figured C&O would have had at least some similar topography that would have produced similar steam designs."

C&O bought engines not designed to fulfill the same requirements as N&W. According to Hrsimaki's history of Lima Locomotive Works and Dr. E. L. Huddleston's various writings, the famous 2-6-6-6 was actually designed to make a name for its designers, the vaunted Advisory Mechanical Committee - they wanted the reputation for designing
the most "horsepowerful" steam locomotive ever. They did it. But considerations of profitability for the C&O didn't seem to enter into the picture, and C&O's management evidently didn't know the difference.

This was the big difference; N&W's top managements (Presidents, etc.) up until 1957 were all guys who had had experience in the operating and other departments. C&O's top managers were lawyers, and not even located on line (Cleveland). They'd buy anything the AMC told them was good. They scored well with the 2-10-4s of 1930 and their 4-8-4s, but the World's Heaviest Hudsons looked a little out of place on a coal road, and the 2-6-6-6s were very expensive and very heavy and were out of place on Allegheny Mountain, which is where they were first used.

Old Timer

[ValleyX]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigJim

Another way N&W folks spoke of engines between themselves was by the "Hunerd" system! The A's were 12 Hunerds, the J's were 6 Hunerds, the Y's were 20 or 21 Hunerds, the SD45's were 17 or 18 Hunerds and so on and so forth [;)]

Give me three 1700's and stand back, course, there was always that low speed rock, especially with that long hood leading, right, Big Jim?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigJim

QUOTE: if they could buy good, used steam, at pennies on the dollar, it wouldn't have worked?

Actually Murh, they did just that. They bought the C&O's 0-8-0's. They liked them so much that they went on to copy the design and the last steam engine built for a Class 1 RR was N&W 0-8-0 #244.

I figured C&O would have had at least some similar topography that would have produced similar steam designs.