point of view

[sooblue]

With all the talk about crossings and the resulting rising flames it is hard to read post after post of rant and rage.

Yet the topic on crossing safety is something that all who have anything to do with the RRs have to deal with. Whether it's as a citizen who crosses them or a railroader who crosses them, both risk their lives.

Cheap shots and poor language will never result in safer crossings. Only coming together with a common goal of safer crossings will result in safer crossings.

On both sides of the issue lie the dead.

Members of the general public who for what ever reason found themselves making the wrong choice at the worst possible time.

Railroaders who having no control over the situation watching as they run into the gravel truck or the log truck or the steel coil truck.

Don't forget the others on the passenger trains that have derailed because of a hit.

Many people feel the pain and the loss. It's not just one group of people.

I think if all would stop to think it would be accepted that probably the only people who had a choice in their death was the person in the car, truck or on foot. No train sneaks up a crossing lying in wait to pounce on an unsuspecting victim.

It would also be accepted that the RRs and the communities should do everything they can to make the crossings safer.

With working TOGETHER to advance safety as the spirit of this post I submit that there are several LITURAL, POINTS OF VIEW in this issue.

1 The street level point of view.

2 The engineers point of view.

3 The RRs point of view.

4 The communities point of view.

Rubber tired transportation and pedestrians see a crossing differently than the engineer does.

The RRs have the opportunity to see the crossing from both points of view but can they see every crossing from both points of view?

The communities have a certain responsibility to bring to the attention of the RRs crossings that need changes. The communities have the opportunity to see the crossing from both points of view too but do they take advantage of it?

Doesn't most of the responsibility for crossing safety fall squarely on the shoulders of those that have the most choices in the use of the crossing?

The engineer has the least choices so they have the least responsibility, but what is their responsibility?

Let’s try to answer these questions and ask more questions.
BUT CHECK THE FLAMETHROWERS AT THE DOOR PLEASE.

Sooblue

[cabforward]

you have certainly presented balanced comments addressing different sides of the issue.. a discussion where all sides present their opinions and respectfully allow others to air their concerns might well led to a set of common goals where procedures can be put into effect to safeguard persons using grade crossings and r.r. employees who operate in the area..

unfortunately,that is not what this forum is about.. we are here to promote hot-button issues, get tempers flaring, assassinate each others' character, offer half-truths, take cheap shots, think up boring, poorly-drawn theories, run off the subject, twist another writer's words and generally behave with total disregard for objectivity and fairness to dissenting opinions..

and if you can't handle it, you obviously dont have a union card!!

[Anonymous]

...Members of the general public who for what ever reason found themselves making the wrong choice at the worst possible time...

Who says they have a choice? I can show you the video of .25 thats one quarter of a second sight distances given for the jungled out crossing. You must be one of OLI people.

[edblysard]

Hey there Blue,
I dont think you will find any but the most inexperienced railroader thinking all crossings are safe, if fact, we complain about the badly designed ones, and the ones where the public run around the gate, and we complain often.
Your right that the driver has a choice, where we dont, but I doubt you will ever convince mike or missouri. They dont post here to educate or inform, or to offer intelligent answers or solutions, rather, both seem more interested in picking a fight, and as with railraoders since the industry began, they came to the right place, starting a ruckus with the right guys.
Notice that neither one mentioned in any post that the train has the legal right of way? Of course not. And besides the legal right of way, a train has the inheirent and logical right of way, just like with ships and boats. You dont see too many weekend sailors challenging a super tanker over who has the right of way when their out in their 16 foot chris craft, do you?
But you can never explain anything to someone who refuses to listen, and no matter how logical or intelligent an explaination you offer as to why cars and trains should never be mixed, one of these two will find some off the wall website full of conspiracy theory nonsense, and proclaim in big bold letters that this somehow is the truth, because its on a website.
You and I both know the only safe crossing is the one that isnt there. That over passes and under passes work, because they keep the cars off the tracks. I also know that the people who design crossings have an acceptable death rate at crossings, my brother in law is a civil engineer, and had given me a lot of info. Its sad that your local DOT makes decisions that kill people, based on budget constraints and a death rate chart, but thats just how it is.
If you dont like the way these things are designed, then go after the guys who design them, not the railroaders who have no choice.
But again, these two are here only to pick a fight.
Stay Frosty Sooblue,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I'm going after the railroads to clean up there OWN property Ed. I didn't take them to raise. They can get some goats or something but UNTIL the proper sight lines are at the crossing you can take your wrong choice and blow it out your railroad covering rear.

There is NOBODY holding a gun to train crews heads makeing you even move through a blind crossing. Don't do it. Follow the SAFETY rules---plain and simple

[Anonymous]

Sorry Blue. These are issues with serious consequences. The issues are not going to be settled here because we have the legal "experts" TELLING RR workers not to work because its not safe. Trains are not safe, if they ever where then the RR's wouldent chase off railfans who are tresspasing. They do so to protect there own property and more important protect lives. So far on EVERY discoussion I have been directly attacked by people who want to complain but not listen. Hou can anyone honestly expect results in this enviroment? I guess me & my ostriches will just stick out heads in the sand till the problem is gone. I am truely sorry that people are going to b*tch about this but I have NEVER seen a automated Xing fail! If I get to an crossbuck Xing then I look both ways. If I can not see I turn down the thumping noise (that I call a stereo) and I listen. If I still do not feel safe I come to a stop an listen. If this does not work then either your deaf, blind, or dumb.
Sorry that this is what Ive seen in over 500k miles of driving!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[JoeKoh]

Blue
I'm like icemanmike.i try to help with information on this forum and enjoy most responses.But when you have someone(S) twisting commentary or talking about a subject that has nothing to do with trains at all its time to leave.Like Ed said with the budget crunch most crosssings might take awhile to fix.but the simple point is LOOK LISTEN LIVE.
STAY SAFE
joe

[BRAKIE]

No flame here..Just the ice cold hard facts.

Most of the fools that get zap at a grade crossing pulls out in front of a train or goes around the lower gates..Hey,If they are that stupid and in a all fire hurry that they can't wait,well let them kill their fool selves the world will be better off.At least they killed their selves and not some innocent family by being in a big ru***o go no where..
SOOO BLUE,Here is what you should do.Find a busy street with a grade crossing with gates and a busy track..You do that you would not need to ask those foolish questions.You will see who is really at fault...Your silly comments will go up in smoke as well.
I see this type of stupidity every day by sitting on my front porch and watching the fools try to commit suicide.The gates are down,lights flashing,ditch lights flashing and horn blaring around the gates they go sometimes when the lead unit is almost to the crossing..This includes cars,pickup trucks,motor cycles,joggers,bicyclist and pedestrians.

Please tell me one more time who is to blame?

[wabash1]

I have neveer heard of a site for distance rule. plain and simple if there is a video it was made by a lawyer to win a case and for one i would bury the lawyer in the muck he created. its easy for railroads to win a case where they are not at fault and you cant stand this. but i would be willing to hear what ever saftey rule you come up with that says i haft to slow down for a blind crossing. or site distance rule what ever it might be. but you cant come up with one that is a legal one that is put out by the goverment.

another good arguement you bring and have beat to death is the have no other choice. i guess you forgot about the common since law that says always leave yourself a out. that dont pertain to just traffic situations it is for everything. am i getting to technical for you? but this last statement you made is nobody is holding a gun to are head to do are job. if we want to work and eat then yes we do as the boss says not some geek on a computor picking fights with railroaders. but i am sure this is over youre head. the just of the matter is that your view points aint going nowhere here and they wont either. you wont convice me that i am doing wrong or that the company is wrong. if you notice most eveeryone on here has not agreed with you on anything you bring up. that only leads to one thing you must be wrong.

[wabash1]

hello sooblue.

the best thing we had was that we called in all near misses at crossings with lic plate numbers all tresspassers. and they use to do something about it till about 8years ago they ( the public and the lawyers ) figured out that it was the police that needs to see it not us and therefore could not issue tickets on what we saw. so if a cop see you going around the gates then its fine he will ticket you. if not then if you beat us at a crossing then you got away with it. every year the rail i work for puts a state trooper on the engine and there is chase cars following on the roads either side when the trooper sees someone going around or thru a crossing after we have went by the whistle board it is reported to a chase car and he gets a ticket. this was sponsered by the operation lifesaver. along with railview cameras it is hard to beat the railroad anymore and mike and missouri cant stand it. The just of the matter is for every life we save 2 more get killed for the same reason they didnt stop look listen and live. i remeber them teaching this same concept to pre-schoolers on how to cross streets safley its amazing how adults cant pick up on this.

[sooblue]

I thought you would come on board.
That's OK, but you didn't reply to my other post when I asked you about the circumstances surrounding “the accident”. Why should I bother to reply to you now?

Well…. I will reply to you, for the sake of your education.

In my post I also said that trains don’t sneak up on crossings. That’s a fact.
If you are in a car and your windows are up and you have the radio on and your boppin to the tunes you can CHOOSE to shut the radio off, roll down your window, and listen for a train, before you cross that track. If need be you can get out of that car and look down the track. No matter what RR is using the track there is clearance between the weeds and the track so anyone can stand beside the track and not get hit by a passing train.
You can also CHOOSE not to cross that track.

The only person who doesn’t have a choice is the engineer. (unless he/she quits)

To disagree with what I’ve just written would be like admitting that you are as dumb as a rock. I don’t think you are so don’t prove me wrong.
Sooblue

[sooblue]

Read my post again Brakie, I think you missed the point of it.

It isn't just the nut ridin rubber that gets killed. Tell that to all the inoccent passengers that get killed if the train derails.
Sooblue

[sooblue]

So your saying that it wasn't until the community
cooperated with the RRs that something got done.

I think the one place that camras should be placed is at RR crossings. For years communities have been using camras for issuing automatic tickets to runners of red lights. I don't agree with that concept because there are times when you have to make a judgment call on whether you can clear the intersection on yellow or not.

A rr crossing is more concrete and therefore cameras make sense.
Sooblue

[sooblue]

Hi Ed,
I was thinking that your point of view is higher up. I would think that you in the cab of a train would be able to see a car easier at some crossings than that car would be able to see you.

How would you know that though unless you were given the chance to see the car drivers point of view?
Sooblue

[sooblue]

I tend to agree with you.
Society more and more is unwilling to take responsibilty for their actions. Where did all the people with guts go that would admit when they screwed up?

Don't blame me! Don't blame me!

Sooblue

[Anonymous]

There you go MN. Point video cameras down the tracks and hook up big screen TVs at the crossings, put radar guns on them and you could see how fast the train was going. Who said Tundra people ain't vury smert?

[wabash1]

no what i am saying is we use to report near misses with lic numbers and the cops would write tickets now that is illegal the cop must see it. why should we report this and nothing be done. the community and the lawyers got this stopped. so if i miss a mother who has 2 kids in her mini-van by inches but have her plate # she got away with it. only a cop on board or sitting at a crossing who sees this can write a ticket. not word of mouth from people who want all crossing accedents stopped. its like this the people that the 2 clowns on here try to protect also are cousing the problem by getting good laws changed. pure and simple. that is why we dont care what they say or what they want if you dont stop look and listen you might get killed. and ill go home they go to the cemetary.

[wabash1]

we already have cameras on the engines and speed recorders at crossings on engines and in signal boxes. its not a problem for anyone to know how fast the train was going.

[edblysard]

Hey Blue,
Yes, we can "see" better from the cab, but the auto driver has a option we really dont. He/she can bring their car to a stop within a realitivaly short amount of time and distance.
The locomotive engineer has no power brake to use. Even if he goes straight into emergency application, it take several seconds for the brakes to apply, and the weight and inertia of the trailing cars will shove him forward quite a long distance. This action will, of course guarantee the entire crew a minimum of 30 days off fired, and if any wheels are slid flat, you can add another few months to that. That assumes all the railcars stay upright on the track.
You really dont want us to flip a few LPG tankcars over on their side, do you?
I am going to make a few assumptions here. You drive a car, and seem to still be alive, you are a fan, and have been around trains for a while.
I bet you slow down at all crossings, and look both ways.
Now, you are driving along, and come to a intersection of a busy street, looking at a red light facing you. You have your foot on the brake, slowing down, prepared to stop before the red light, when suddenly your light goes green.
Do you stomp on the gas and go, or do you continue to go slow, looking both ways for the numbnuts who floored the gas trying to beat the yellow light they had? What if this intersection had heavy truck traffic? Would you excersise even more caution? Of coures you would, because your smart enough to realize the 18 wheeler blasting through the yellow cant stop fast enough to keep from hitting you, therefore you dont put yourself in the position to be hit.
Now, change that around just a little. Your driving along, and drop the cd your trying to put in the player. You are rooting around on the floor looking for it, and drive through a red light. Coming from your right is a 18 wheeler, who has a green light. He is high enough he can see you over the other traffic. Bam, he t-bones you in the middle of the intersection. When the cops show up, he tells them he saw you comming, but had the green and assumed you would stop at your red light. Whos at fault here, him, for assuming you would do what you were suppost to and stop, or you, for driving through a red light?
What else would you, or any other person, assume would be using railroad tracks? Certainly not another automobile.
So I assume you realize trains use the tracks.
Regardless of whether you understand the mechanics of inerita, anyone with one whit of sense can take one look at a train and realize its big, heavy and cant stop quickly. Every driver I know has seen a train. Now, given the fact that you, and every other person in the world know that trains are big and heavy, given the fact you dont have a death wish, given the fact you know you can stop, or slow down and look, regardless of the condition of the crossing, be it a blind crossing, or open praire, isnt it reasonable for the train crew to assume you dont want to drive in front of them?
Is it unreasonable for us to assume your self preservation instinct will kick in, and you, as a reasonable person, with moderate driving skills, will excersise the same caution you use at traffic intersections? Add to these assumptions the flashing ditch lights, the ringing bell and reallly loud horn on the locomotive.
All things added in, how un reasonable is it to assume the automobile driver will excersise the same caution at a railroad crossing as they do at a traffic intesection? After all, they are the same thing, except instead of cars, you have trains added to the mix.
Heres a though for you.
How many train/automobile crossing accidents did you see in the last month?
Now, how many automobile/automobile accidents at intersections did you see in the same time period?
To answer the last part of your question.
What receives little press is that most crossing accidents occur at a crossing the automobile driver crosses on a regular basis. They already have a forewarning of its exsistience, they know its there, and have most likley seen a train using it before. I bet you drive across at least one crossing every day. Do you assume that, because you have never seen a train using it at, say, ten in the morning, that one will never use it at that time, and you just drive across it without looking? Bet not. I drive to work, and cross, lets see, three grade crossings, one without anything other than a pair of cross bucks.
So I do see things from the car drivers point of view.
Wait, make that five tracks I cross, I have to drive into the yard, and cross a busy double main with no protection at all. Have yet to be hit. From my point of view, in the car, not the cab, I expect a train to be using any of theses tracks, at any time. I though this way long before I went railroading. I was taught this concept as a kid, both by my parents, and my drivers ed teacher. Do you expect anything else to be using the railroad tracks other than a train?
So, yeah, we have the attitude that we are bigger, and you, the car driver, should yeild the right of way, because you can, we cant. Yeah, we expect you to excersise caution around train tracks, the same caution you use at intersections, we expect you to not want to die, so we expect you to look, listen, and live.
By the way, odds are if its a blind crossing for the car driver, it blind for the train crew also. We have to opperate on the faith that the driver of the car will excersise caution. We blow the horn, ring the bell, and hope you pay attention.
All of these arguments really boil down to assignment of blame at a accident.
All the arguments aside, and putting everything on a equal standing, your car, at 40 mph, can stop within 100 feet, bad brakes and bald tires included.
My train, at 40 mph cant even come close to stopping anywhere near that distance.
Now, who should yeild the right of way?
Blue, nothing here was intended as a personal attack on you. Simply a response to your question. You asked for my point of view, here it is.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[BRAKIE]

Indeed! But just look at who really cause the accident! The fool that pulled out in front of the train..Not the engineer or the railroads.People must take responsibility for their stupidity instead of blaming everybody else..When the blood sucking lawyers and silly judges see that along with the stupid bleeding hearts then people will act more responsible.

Come on now say you spill hot coffee on you whose fault is that? The restaurant or your own stupidity? You get drunk and drive whose fault is that really if you get busted by the cops? No one forces you to drink and drive yet drunk drivers are killing people by the thousands and getting by with it! 4th 5th and up on DUI charges and still driving? Now you fuss about grade crossings and live with drunk drivers which may kill you,your family or other love ones? I fail to understand that.

[csxns]

Anybody heard the song "Waiting on Joe".

[JoeKoh]

yes
its about a brother who got his younger brother a job.he was waiting for his brother joe to go to work but joe didn't look listen and was hit by a train and died.look listen and live as this joe does.
stay safe
joe

[sooblue]

Hey Ed,
I don't think you attacked me. But you didn't get the idea I had in my original post.
I agree with everything you said, by the way.
What I was trying to say in my post was that unless someone reports a crossing, that has a poor line of sight, to the RRs that crossing isn't going to get fixed.
The RR engineer has a diffrent point of view than the car opperator or the pedestrian.
The engineer may have a good view through a crossing so would be less likely to know that the crossing is poor. So notification of a poor crossing has to come from someone with the car or pedestrians point of view (sight)
You see what I'm getting at?
Sight lines or point of view *smile*
Sooblue

[sooblue]

I hear ya,
say, you know you said;
>Come on now say you spill hot coffee on you whose fault is that?
Go into a Mcdonalds drive through and you will see,
"coffee is served very hot"

A lady got 2mil for spilling hot coffee on herself.
Sooblue

[sooblue]

Hi Wabash,
I understand your point, but getting that officer onboard was the best thing that could have happened. They get to see all the cheaters and they get to see "your point of view"

A camera and a warning sign that you will be ticketed would be an even better inducment to stop cheating.

Having the engineer play cop isn't the best idea anyway. You know why don't you?
In the USA you are inocent until proven guilty.
You may write down someones licence plate number but you have -O- proof of guilt.
With the cop in the cab you have a sworn witness to a crime.

A camera at the crossing would be better yet.

Sooblue

[edblysard]

I agree with you on that, also.
And I wi***he carriers would set up a 1-800 line for it, they already have them for malfunctioning crossing equipment.
And yeah, a crossing that looks ok to us in the cab may look really bad at street level.
But we cant be all things at all time so..
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[sooblue]

We have to stay smart up here. It's no trick to live in a warm the year round place.
I've seen the temp go from 75 above down to 35 below in 24 hours, and I've seen the temp drop to 56 below and stay there for a few days too.
I'm not talking wind chill either.

As for your camera idea, WHY?
If you can put a camera and a big screen up why not just signal the crossing?
It realy is easy you know, You can hear a train, you can see a train and you can even feel a train comming.

What does it matter how fast it's going?

Someone would only care about that if they had a mind(or not) to beat that train out.

No matter how hard a person tries the truth can't be changed. The RRs COULD have screwed up a crossing to the point that it may be unsafe but you can't put the blame on the engineer (unless they didn't follow the rules)

You can assign some blame to the RR but most of the fault at a crossing accident lies with the person crossing the crossing.
You just can't change that missouri.

Sooblue

[sooblue]

You too Ed,
All in all I have a lot of respect for the person behind the throttle.
I have felt the feeling of being pushed along by the weight behind you.
It's a dog-gone strange feeling. Like you are not in control and your in the front! ready to be squashed like a bug.
Sooblue

[Anonymous]

I was working up in Minn. a couple years ago. Can't remember the town name. College town around a lake, out in the middle of nowhere. Early fall so the weather was pretty nice.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/TA/ProgMgt/Grants/Sight_Eng.pdf Pretty simple. All the engineers have to do is carry this chart and turn it around for the train approach. If the train can't see 180 feet up the road or whatever the road speed, train speed, and traffic control device calls for the train needs to slow down to the sight distances that are there for the driver or the crossing cleared out. It's the right thing to do no matter what their robber baron bosses say. The FRA people need to be in jail for negilgient homicide for sitting track speeds without takeing traffic controls sight distances into account.
The Officer on the Train dog and pony show is jury tampering---the Operation Lifesaver "dumb driver" propaganda is jury tampering. NEVER do they go after missing safety equipment or sight lines. Their checks come from the railroads so if the problems really got fixed they would be out of a job. Let ME and a few dozen others around the country show the cops what to look for instead of running a snail train 4 mph dareing people to violate crossing statutes when in fact the railroads are in violation for activateing the equipment longer than the 26 seconds needed. Like dropping a purse on the sidewalk and arresting whoever picked it up for purse snatching.

2 video cameras --- $1,000
2 Big Screen TVs --- $4,000
Crossing lights --- $80,000

or
Tractor/Brush Hog $100,000
Bull-dozer $120,000
Chain saw $500.

[cabforward]

i support cameras at crossings, just as cameras photograph red-light runners.. the worst crossings should have cameras, absolutely.. the cost of installation and maintenance is near zero compared to a cop sitting there for 2 hours, or scheduling a ride-along for a cop in an engine.. i support cameras before i would police riding trains..
scheduling an officer to ride a train for a short distance means the officer and the train have to meet at a certain time and place, then the officer and conductor must agree on his point of departure from the train.. then, his dept. must send a car to pick him up and bring him to his car, where he resumes his patrol duties..

it seems the only agency really suited for this is the highway patrol, who have jurisdiction border-to-border.. people who drive around gates or get stuck when the gate hits their car should pay double the fine, and reimburse the r.r. for damages..

2 things that are beyond outrage are child abusers and r.r. crossing violators, but that's just me..