Harassment for Photography: Not just for Railfans.

[Anonymous]

http://www.radioreference.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26574
Allan.

[tree68]

Buffalo Springfield had it right.

[waltersrails]

thats sad that you can't take pictures of nothing no more. Im going railfanning in the morning and i will be photograghing and video taping the railroad on public property with also i have permission from a rr conductor to take the photos and be on railroad property as long as i stay out of the way.

[fuzzybroken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by icom1020 on RadioReference.com Forums

I was on a platform a couple of years ago photographing a Sounder train outside Seattle and a Pinkerton Guard came up and asked me what I was doing and he said "Haven't you heard of 9-eleven"? he didnt bother me as he was already bothered with his goofy coke bottle glasses on. If someone asks for your digtal card/film, it's intellectual property. A friend of mine was challenged in LA by LA Sheriffs over him taking pictures at a public station and they wanted his digital card. Basically he said no, and its "$!0 dollars an image" if you want it "and they went away. One never assumes anything.

Good response!

[Anonymous]

that was just wrong

[trainboyH16-44]

So you're not allowed to take pictures of bridges, huh? Well, I guess that leaves out any pictures of cities with rivers. Industrial sites, I wonder how broad a definition they can get out of that...
I can't believe it. Now the terrorists have truly won. "Have you heard of 9-11?" "Yes, have you heard of basic human rights?"

[eastside]

Maybe those cops should loosen up a little. Here, at ground zero, their heads are screwed on straight. While on my way to catch a MetroNorth New Haven Express, I took these pictures in Grand Central Terminal.

I was shooting away with my camera. Cops with assault rifles were all around and sane. When I took the picture at track 34 I actually braced my arm on the Information desk where a cop was sitting.

[fievel]

Nice pics, Eastside ! [:)]

[edblysard]

I’m with Larry…


Stop,
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look what’s going down....

Actually, if we are lucky, the Congress will fail to re-new the Patriot act before the end of the year.

Oh, and the act make no mention of photographing trains, planes or places...although a lot of people, and a lot of cops, think it does.

What it does allow is the government to suspend quite a few of your civil right and liberties....

Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


Actually, if we are lucky, the Congress will fail to re-new the Patriot act before the end of the year. Ed

They already did last night. It has been extended for another six months.
Six months of no freedom. Hassment from the cops. I thought that just being on public property was safe enough,I guess not. Allan.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard



I’m with Larry…


Stop,
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look what’s going down....

Actually, if we are lucky, the Congress will fail to re-new the Patriot act before the end of the year.

Oh, and the act make no mention of photographing trains, planes or places...although a lot of people, and a lot of cops, think it does.

What it does allow is the government to suspend quite a few of your civil right and liberties....

Ed

Unfortunately, the "Patriot" Act was renewed for another six months. The main reason it was not made permanent, as Bush has gone on record saying that is what he wants, was due to the efforts of Senator Russ Fiengold of Wisconsin (the only Senator who voted against the original, back in 10/01).

[ironhorseman]

I probably shouldn't say this because it might give some railroad companies ideas, or other entities for that matter, but....

I was talking to a friend last night, a big NASCAR and racing fan all around, he found out there other day that any picture or image or video that ANYBODY takes at ANY race track is LEAGALLY the property of NASCAR. So, I asked him, if I understand it right, that when I take MY camera, that I bought and paid for with MY money, use the film, that I bought and paid for with MY money, at/inside a racing venue, and have that film developed, bought and paid for with MY money, the images are technically owned by NASCAR (or Formula One, whichever the case may be)????

And my friend said that's right, which left me baffled. So, therefore, NASCAR owns those pictures I took at all those races I've been to. But the only way I can get in trouble is if I sell those images.

My question, other than 'is this right (morally and legally)', is if this is going to set a trend. And not just in the sports world. I can see the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, etc wanting to do the same thing but would/could railroads impose such a restriction? If you photograph a train could the railroad OWN YOUR PHOTOS and deny you the ability to SELL YOUR OWN PHOTOS??

And could this spread to other areas as well? For instance, buildings and bridges? Does the owner of a building, so for instance a bank or hotel, retain the copyright on a picture you took that included their building even though you bought and paid for the film and its developing? If you take a picture of a bridge does the city, county, or even the local Department of Transportation own the rights to YOUR photo?

In that case, people who make videos and movies are going to have to start paying out real hefty royalties on everything. Pentrex would be sunk. Hollywood, if they happen to catch a glimpse of a racetrack in the backround of a frame in some movie, will have to pay a fine for selling images that included some NASCAR sanctioned venues and stockcars and etc.

But turn about is fair play. Take a picture of my house and car and try to sell that image and I'll sue you because I technically own that picture now. If I go to a professional photography studio to a portrait done of myself the photographer should pay ME to sell or use my image. And those of you that know me well enough know that I'm an avid runner and been to many fun runs over the years. In waiver for registration there's always some clause in there that says 'any images taken of you, the participant, may be used in future publicity or promotional yadda yadda yadda.' Well, guess what? Put my image on the brouchure and you'll have to pay up, to ME. Go ahead and put my picture in the newspaper, and then sell that paper, and then you'll be paying ME. The newspaper better hope they're in low circulation that day.

And if my image is put on TV.... let's see, normal frame rate is 24images/second X ~60seconds on average = 1440 images/minute @ let's see,... oh, $10/images = all my student loans paid paid back.

Now where's that TV camera? Excuse me, I need to go get my face on TV, I've got a lot of bills to pay [:-,][:-,][:-,][:-,][:-,]

[tree68]

IHM - I think it's in the fine print on the back of your ticket. Not much different than the disclaimer they say at the end of major league sports event broadcasts - "This broadcast/images/etc are the property of major league whatever and may not be rebroadcast, etc, etc." Keep in mind that if you are sitting inside Charlotte Motor Speedway, having gained admission via purchasing a ticket or having a pass, that you are on their property and are subject to their rules.

On the other hand, if you shoot a NASCAR car as it goes by you on a public street on the back of a rollback, I'm pretty sure the image is yours to do with as you wish. Pretty much the same state of affairs we've discussed for railroad photography.

As for the newspaper - if it's newsworthy, I doubt you'll get any money. I've been in the paper, and on TV many times and have yet to get one red cent. If you are in a posed situation you will often be asked to sign a release. Independent photogs often do just that if, f'rinstance, they take a picture of you drinking from a water fountain and plan to sell the image. If you're a routine nobody, odds are you'll not get a penny out of it.

A local fire chief has issued an order that anyone caught taking unauthorized pictures "inside the yellow tape" at fires in his locality will be escorted off the fireground, regardless of official status. His concern is that firefighters are on the fireground to fight fires, not take pictures. The issue came to a head when pictures of a major fire surfaced on the 'Net that had been taken from on top of an aerial ladder or were of things like firefighters clowning around when they should have been working.

That still doesn't change the 'stupid' factor that is cropping up.

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the man comes, he takes you away.
- "For What It's Worth" - Buffalo Springfield

[ironhorseman]

Larry...

All satire aside, it makes me wonder where the most paranoia lies: in the common man worried about his rights and freedoms taken away, or on the corporate and government side worried about protecting themselves from every concievable incident. Or maybe it's evenly balanced. Both sides get 'screwed' so to speak, but probably not as harmful as everyone thinks.[2c]

Ugh, too much thinking for one morning, gonna take a break now. [%-)]

Remember the Maine
Remember the Alamo
And remember there's a quiz on Monday
[swg]

[chad thomas]

[:(!] I for one hope Torrance PD gets hit hard and that this case gets lots of publicity. Don't get me wrong, It's not because these cops were not doing there job, but bucause they are out there enforcing laws that don't exist. If these bozos are going to be in the law enforcement bussiness then they @#& well better know the laws.[:(!]

[Anonymous]

I dont think terrorists will be attacking the US they have themselves busy getting killed in Iraq, I used to think Bush was a good president but now that image as altered to what I see today a man trying to cover up the fact they have been spying on us, they are probley spying on us this moment.

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fastrains

I dont think terrorists will be attacking the US they have themselves busy getting killed in Iraq, I used to think Bush was a good president but now that image as altered to what I see today a man trying to cover up the fact they have been spying on us, they are probley spying on us this moment.

Brings to mind another song:

I always feel like
Somebody's watching me.

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan.

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


Actually, if we are lucky, the Congress will fail to re-new the Patriot act before the end of the year. Ed

They already did last night. It has been extended for another six months.
Six months of no freedom. Hassment from the cops. I thought that just being on public property was safe enough,I guess not. Allan.

Seriously, though, you don't really expect much to change afterwards, do you?

[espeefoamer]

If UP ever hears of that NASCAR rule watch out! Next thing you know,any photo taken from a UP train,or of a UP train,either on or off UP property,will be claimed as owned by the UP,and the photographer will have to pay royalties to the big yellow sponge[:0]!

[Anonymous]

[Scoobie9669]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

If UP ever hears of that NASCAR rule watch out! Next thing you know,any photo taken from a UP train,or of a UP train,either on or off UP property,will be claimed as owned by the UP,and the photographer will have to pay royalties to the big yellow sponge[:0]!

Ain't that the truth.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

If UP ever hears of that NASCAR rule watch out! Next thing you know,any photo taken from a UP train,or of a UP train,either on or off UP property,will be claimed as owned by the UP,and the photographer will have to pay royalties to the big yellow sponge[:0]!

Union Pacific is already Power hungry,Don't give them anymore ideas than they already know[;)]. Allan.

[tmcc man]

I was talking to my aunt about this, and she happens to be a cop, and she told me that 1) The officer was not allowed to tell a lie about taking photos of industrial sites, refineries, etc and 2) they had no right to detain him. She was in shock when I told her about that.

[Anonymous]

Almost like a cop was stopping anyone on our street who went a tenth of a mile above the speed limit, then lying to whom he stopped, usually jacking the number up 3 or 4 digits. He never got caught, and he's now the police chief. Gee, I wonder why the sheriff's department does all the work?[X-)]

Matt

[Anonymous]

Well that tells you just how crooked our cops are now a days. We tax payers pay these scums to protect us and yet they abuse the law.

[tmcc man]

Trust me she is as far from crooked.

[Anonymous]

I had the experience of being questioned by the local sherif's department in Stuart Florida because I was taking pictures of three railcars in a siding by the local airport. Even though I was on the road the officer said that there was a problem because of a sign that said no trespassing. The legal delemna would be where the property line begins for the railway and where the public property ended. Even though I was the one taking the pictures he was more interested in my coworker who was in the passenger side of our rental car which was idling on the shoulder of the road. The distance between the road and the rail bed was less than 12 feet.

I told the officer that I photograph the railcars for a home based business but he couldn't understand why I wouldn't just go down to the rail yard and photograph there with permission. My coworker and I are both corporate aviation pilots and were in full uniform so he also asked if we were terrorists. I believe that I saw the woman who called the police on us because she was smiling at me and picked up a cell phone at the time I noticed her. I was only a few feet away from her car but I think that she felt she wouldn't be able to politely ask why I was taking the pictures. The officer let us go with a warning after I told him that I wanted the pictures to make decals and would be leaving in a few hours anyway.

On another trip a two months ago I talked to the head of security for the Canadian National properties in Chicago. He told me that anybody seen taking picutures of railway property would be fully prosecuted under federal law even though the photographer is standing on public property. If the higher ups in society believe they have the full legal ability to prosecute then stories of wrongfull arrest and detainment will be more common in the future.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan.

Well that tells you just how crooked our cops are now a days. We tax payers pay these scums to protect us and yet they abuse the law.

I grew up in a police officer environment and know quite a few besides - and have yet to run into one that was crooked. Occasionally there's one who is a bit big for his britches, but time and experience tend to soften that edge. Remember, too, that cops see a side of people that most of us don't have the "pleasure" to deal with, and may have information that you don't have as well. Your comparative perceptions of your activity are probably very different.

On the other hand, nobody likes to be told they are wrong - it's just one of those facets of human nature. So when you tell a cop that he's wrong - that you can legally do what he's telling you you can't - you can expect him to try to save face. How the rest of the meeting goes will depend heavily on the bravado level of both parties...

We hire police officers to uphold the law. If we are running into this much confusion just within out own railfan community, imagine the predicament of someone who spends only a small fraction of his or her time dealing with this topic...

[Anonymous]

After 9-11 folks were tripin', but in Kingston the police here has long since mellowed out, other places have not.. But I try to keep a low profile and stay out of sight. I try to stay away from the road where I often get a few complaints from the crew or a bystander who happens to think that I'm hurt. What happend on 9-11 did NOT stop me from railfaning! I just keep going reguardless of the complaints.

[Anonymous]

here in washington state the cops dont really seem to care all that much