remote control

[Anonymous]

RCO switchers are not operated from the control tower (not on my RR). Where do you foamers get your info? I know when I am on my RCO job, I am on the ground along with annother crew member. That is unless I am dreaming......and if I am, wake me up, cause it is a bad one! Gee, why do I even bother to update my rule book and Palm when I can come here and have know-it-all foamers tell me how the RR really works. Or even better, have a jacka*s teacher tell me how it is. Somebody that has never kicked a car in his life, yet has all of the answers. I am glad that Noel posts though. I print his posts and take them to work for all of the real Rails to laugh at. Even TMs laugh at you Noel, and they are company officials. Keep posting Noel...we can use the laugh.

[Jackflash]

Knuckle is good for 390000 lbs, I like that about
putting inspectors and maint. people on the trains
man dont you understand whats being said to you,
right now, you have at least two experts,sometimes
three, on the train now, you my friend have spent
a lot of money, to improve something
that works just fine, all this is a moot point
anyway, its very unlikely that we'll see any
un-maned trains "highballing" across america any-
time soon, the carriers insurance carriers wouldnt
allow it if nothing else. jackflash

[edblysard]

Lets see if I get you right. Take the operating crew off, but put a maintaince crew on the train.? Kinda a vicious circle, isnt it?
Ed

[Anonymous]

Alot of Noel's therories sound logical on paper. The problem is that in the real world its not worth the paper its printed on. If a RR would invest more money on the entire system across the board them you might have a few more followers. The part that scars the crap out of me is how can a rr justify investing all this loot for remote or even a gps train and expect to keep the same trackage? At over $2-5 million per mile for a basic rail system that is not nowhere near the Japanise or European standard. Yea its working over seas....they built an entire system from the ground up. Not re furbishing the old crap that was laying around. This real seams to be a GMs pet project, because this makes little busness sense.
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

Noel seems to be married to his theory no matter what the actual dollar amount would cost to implement it. And this doesn't even take into consideration how we really operate. He should should take his "theory" and hire out. His view would change considerably if he knew how a railroad really works.

He would beg for his cush instructor position back.

With all his "numbers", maybe Worldcom or Enron is hiring!

[Mookie]

Thank goodness for that!

[petitnj]

Two points of clarification: (1) I didn't claim that RCO is done from a tower now; it will be done from remote sites soon. (2) There may be areas where it is too hard to remote control a train or get to the train in an emergency. Then put the crew back on the train for that part of the trip. This is an operational trade off.

Unfortunately with deregulation, the railroads are operating as a profit making business and will be exposed to the same forces as Worldcom and Enron. The market place (and the government for that matter) doesn't care if you are safe, efficient, good citizens or whatever. The market cares if you are going to make a good profit in the next quarter. This is difficult for the worker in the trenches since decisions are made based on the bottom line. RCO will be one of those.

What to do as a worker? First use all your tools to ensure that the company operates efficiently. The more profit the company makes now the more attractive it will be for capital ($) to improve in the future. Second, use all your tools and influence to promote improvements. Do each of you submit suggestions every week?

I appreciate that I am making good reading for some, but you and I are in a global economic struggle. Your retirement depends on the effiency of the railroad in the future. Just ask some of the high tech employees about their retirement funds now that the over priced stocks have crashed. Remember that all of the economies of the world are tied together. If our economy stumbles, it affects the rest of the world too.

Luckily railroads are considered a vital transportation resource. This will provide some governmental protection from the forces of the free market. But take charge and show that your industry can change with the times.

Thanks for the discussion...Go Lakers!

[edblysard]

Your last statement makes the assumption that
change is always for the better, ignoring all the input you received here that pointed out the plain facts.
Because its very primitive and simple nature is the key to its efficiency, changing the basic way we do our jobs will complicate the process, in turn incurring even greater cost per car. That is the keystone principle of profit in railroading, cost per car.
Where else in gross freight transportation, except trucks, which handle small loads in comparison to most other modes, can you move that much "stuff" with only two people?
Ocean going ships, and the lakers too, require a crew of 16 to 25 men. UPS, FedX and USPS air freight require at least three people to fly the plane, pilot, co-pilot, and navigator. And you can put their entire load into one box car.
I flat switch a average of 200 cars per day, at a average loaded weight of 75000 lbs per car.
Thats 15000000 lbs I move dailey, with only three men and a locomotive. If I work a full eight hours, thats 1875000 lbs per hour. Even using your slightly skewed cost chart, thats a bargin any way you slice it, or pie chart it.
And you still expect the railroads to re invest their profit back into the infrastructure or plant at the same rate other industries do.
Take a hard look at the Southern Pacific.
What should have been the crown jewel of western railroads crumbled because they refused to re-invest into their plant. The money was there, the traffic was there, the people were there, yet the management failed to "manage" their company. The culture of railroad management flies in the face of normal business practices.

Fact, we can already efficently switch cars, without remote control locomotives.
Fact, I can switch 200 cars per day, and have 5 out bound 100-150 car trains ready to go in eight hours.
Fact, we can do the job.
Fact, until management realizes that to profit, we have to be able to get the train to where the customer needs it, when the customer needs it, all the remotes in the world will not change the bottom line.

We can get the train there, with only two people.
But as long as the railroads continue with the concept that it can all be run from one place, nothing will change, your GPS, computers, and all the remotes in the world wont make one whit of difference.
Trying to get the train to a customer in Oregon when your in Fort Worth cant work, even with a Cray in the basement.
If the railroad gave up the stratified management concept, and gave more athuority to the people in the field, who have first hand knowledge of the customer, his needs and wants, and the condiditons faced by the train, then you would see the bottom line of every railroad soar.
But control is the key word with railroad management, down to the number of lantren battries and blubs you can have in a week.
The rational for track repair on the old SP?
Easy, nothing fell off the track, so it must be ok.
We need money? Well, lets not try to make more customers, or get the train to our exsisting customers on time, lets just lay off 400 people, and use that money to cover our debts. Dosnt make any sense, but thats exactly what they did, and kept at it until their railroad was in such bad shape and trains so late their customers sued them to allow other railroads to use their tracks, so the customer could ship their goods.
Your economic model would be valid if this was any other industry except railroading.
Before you "teach" on the subject, I suggest you do a little hands on research. Get one of your railroad buddies to put you on a train, or go watch a good, hot crew flat switch a cut of cars. I think if you did that, you might, just might, come away with a little different perspective on what we do, and how we do it.
Stay Frosty,
Ed
But thats

[Anonymous]

Ed, as much thought and rationalle your posts contain, it still isn't good enough for this dingleberry. He is a typical college prof. I completely find college profs. amazing. I have never been able to learn a trade merely by reading on the subject. These instructor types do it all of the time. Wow! To further enhance my quest to become a good switchman, I think that I will search for more reading on the subject. Maybe I will layoff a few turns and immerse myself in a good RR book. Like they say, "hands on is O.K., but nothing beats reading about it."
I would also like to have old Noel hang out with me for a day. First I would have to gag him so he would shut up and learn. Second, I would like to strap my RCT to him and let him schlep that turd around for 8-11 hrs.

[petitnj]

Thanks again, Ed for your detailed response. Your analysis of the situation is exactly as it is.

Your crew's ability to switch cars and make up trains is exactly what keeps the RR's running. Every individual in a system like a RR is vital to the bottom line. One wrong move and a train can be derailed with hazardous material costing the RR $10M's.

RR's like the SP didn't invest properly and melted down. And I am not saying that management is making rational decisions. Why did they invest poorly? Railroads never made money by moving freight. They were land barons and financial middlemen (see Credit Mobilier, etc.) Let's say we want to make a RR thru your town. We need to build 30 miles of line to the next town. Go to the city fathers and get a bond floated for $500k and then go to a construction company (conveniently owned by the same folks that own the railroad) and give them $300k to build the line. Actual construction costs may be more like $200k and you see that the RR owners have made $300k to build the line. Since they were flush with this cash from about 1875 to about 1900 the didn't have to make money, but the books still looked pretty good. Along comes regulation and WWI to refocus the country and slow the RR's growth. Now they profit from the war and recover nicely until the depression of the '20's. Since they have lots of cash in the bank they can ride out the depression and shrink until WWII traffic loads them down again. WWII was the killer app of the railroads. They were paid handsomely for transportation, but couldn't invest in improvements to accomodate these loads. This drained whatever ca***he RR's had left over from the depression and they were left out to dry as the country created an alternate transportation system with public moneys (your 6 lane parking lots called freeways in Houston).

The upshot of this all was that the old way of doing business was gone. The cash rich owners had all faded into the past and the RR's had to make money on operations (which they or the airlines never did). That's why the SP didn't invest. Other investments looked much more inviting -- computers, real estate, airlines, WalMart. Now since the RR's couldn't convince the stock market to invest in the old way, they turned to the new way -- cut investment and employment and try to turn a quarterly profit.

So though I am sure that carrying around a remote control pack for 8 hours is tiring it is giving the railroads the appearance of progress in controlling employment costs. They will look more attractive to the investors and can raise money for further improvemnts and efficiencies.

You see it has nothing to do with how safe, efficient or quick you are at any one job. It is a whole different question from a different angle.

Keep up the good work and again congratulations on being efficient and safe (lastest AAR figures show RR safety continues to improve, counter to safety on the road).

[edblysard]

If you did that, he'd get blisters on his footsies, maybe even get his hands dirty, and , oh my gosh, he might even get sweat stains on his polo shirt. Way to inefficent for his style.
But, in all seriousness, you'd think a teacher would grasp the KISS principal, but then that might be to easy, or not complicated enought to require a teacher to pass it on. And it astounds me that anyone educated enought to get a teaching certificate can, after any amount of reasearch, believe that railroad management plays by any other rules but it's own.
Oh well, you can lead a horse(or mule) to water...
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Wow, you know, having a discussion with you is like having a discussion with my 16 year old daughter, a excersise in futility, you seem to change position as fast as a duck in a shooting gallery.
What you preposed might look mighty fine to someone outside, looking in. But from the inside, I can promise you that if you do away with engineers, switchmen, and as many of the current operating personel as you can, you concept will only require them to be replaced with even higher paid techno geeks, at a 2 to 1 ratio, swelling the payroll even further than it currently is. There are some good business rules that apply, even to railroads. Make your customer happy, and he will continue to shop with you. Make your employees happy, they will give you their best, every day. Simple solutions are the best. Compitition drives business.
Why fix what isnt broken? On the other hand, there are some business rules that dont apply anywhere else but railroads. Employees are nothing but draft beast, they just walk upright instead of on four feet. Tell no one what you intend to do. Make no real plans for the future, because the GM may have a different plan, and wether it is good or bad, thats whats going to happen, so protect your turf and job no matter what.
Hopefully, your bright enough to realize the AAR is nothing moe than a industry cheerleading squad? Its sole purpose is to promote railroading, its made up of retired CEOs and GMs from railroads, and apointiees from the carriers to make railroading look good. The only time they report anything negative is when they have no chioce in the matter. The FRA is a joke, they have one man to cover southeast Texas.
Their mandate is to enforce rules compliance, and help draft new safty rules, but, like most goverment employees, their jobs consist of doing just enough to get by, and dressing that up enough to make themselvs look like their doing their job, therefore justifying their job and paycheck. If you dont think every one of us dosnt know where this guy is at any given time of the day, dream on. Any statistic the FRA might publish is most likely incomplete. They do not gather the data themselves, they rely on the management of railroads to truthfully report things, and I can promise you, management goes to great, and often time illegal efforts to prevent things from becoming FRA reportable incidents. The FRA knows this, the employees know this, and no one will ever say a thing.
The guys on this forum most likely wont tell you some of the things that have gone really wrong with remotes, for fear someone will reconize them or the incident, and they will lose their job, but shove outs, cornering, sideswipes and derailments are way above what the railroads report to the FRA. Its a shell game on a immense scale.
The railroads have the money to spent on this, and even if they dont, they will still try, because, if you havent learned anything else from all of this, you should have gotten one thing by now. Railroaders have really, really hard heads. Management has even harder ones. Their pride and public face is on the line. One thing the carriers management cant stand, above anything else, is to be embarassed and proven wrong in any business decision. But your on the outside of this culture, so expecting you to grasp that this industry is really run by a bunch of 55 year old adolescents might be too much. You are applying real world logic to a secret society, good luck.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed, I am more of a cynic than you are, the FRA is no longer a regulatory wing of the government concerned with the safety of railroad workers. The FRA is run by political appointees. Every time the United States President changes so do the policies of the FRA. The FRA is not so much concerned with safety as with advancing whatever political agenda the President wants. Allan Rutter was appointed by G W Bush. Previously to FRA administrator he worked for Bush in the State of Texas as his Transportation Policy adviser in the Governor’s office.

Right now the agenda of the FRA is to let the railroads do whatever they want. The proof of that is that no regulations were ever issued for remote control operations only voluntary guidelines that the railroads could and do ignore if they so choose.

I don't believe the reason Congress created the FRA in the first place was to allow politics to enter into railroad safety. The FRA was brought into existence because of the railroads abuses of safety. It appears the FRA is allowing the fox in the hen-house.

[cabforward]

ed's insight into regulators and agencies is valuable for those of us who don't know r.r.-ing from the inside..

there are some who don't care about learning, insight, or getting a balanced perspective.. all they care about is proposing ludicrous situations.. responses are posted, then the originator starts playing 'what if..' games, changing the subject, using smoke screens, etc..

following the issue becomes confusing as the original topic becomes lost in the convoluted logic..

i dont know why people enjoy posting such drivel.. i do know once i understand their purpose, i stay away from them.. they can only teach others one aspect of human relations: tolerance of all kinds of personalities, esp. ones we don't like..

[edblysard]

It seems, more often than not, not only do they allow him in, but hold the door open for him.
"Hi, I'm from the goverment, and I'm here to help you..."
Yeah, right.
Ed

[petitnj]

Once again your responses proved my point. The workers don't seem to have much influence over the industry. The FRA is a government body and like all these types of agencies is politically driven. How else would you drive it?

Sorry that I have tried to keep the discussion moving with "what ifs". That is the way debates are.

OK here is another "what if". What would you do to improve efficiency on the railroad? More shorter trains on tighter schedules, faster schedules, better customer relationships, what?

Things are going to change. The politicians will see to it that stagnant economies are stimulated by changes to industry. What changes would you suggest?

And cut the personal attacks please. The "sticks and stones" thing applies but the name calling really makes us all look foolish.

[petitnj]

Once again your responses proved my point. The workers don't seem to have much influence over the industry. The FRA is a government body and like all these types of agencies is politically driven. How else would you drive it?

Sorry that I have tried to keep the discussion moving with "what ifs". That is the way debates are.

OK here is another "what if". What would you do to improve efficiency on the railroad? More shorter trains on tighter schedules, faster schedules, better customer relationships, what?

Things are going to change. The politicians will see to it that stagnant economies are stimulated by changes to industry. What changes would you suggest?

And cut the personal attacks please. The "sticks and stones" thing applies but the name calling really makes us all look foolish.

[Anonymous]

Noel, I haven't seen anyone call you names. There has been a few that implied that you didn't know what you were talking about.

Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you’re a thousand miles from the
corn field.
Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890–1969), U.S. general, Republican politician, president. Speech, 25 Sept.
1956, Peoria, Ill.1

[Anonymous]

The more I read these post the more I respect and realise that you RR workers are some strong/wise people! Most people could not deal with the crap that you have to deal with on a daily basis. I looked in to a RR job localy...WOW that is nuts I am a fan, but an employee........Igg i dont think I could do it!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

You are right about that Ed we gripe and moan about everything but when the phone rings ordering us to work we go. I used to work in a steel mill stuck inside all of the time the railroad is great if you love to be outside. Rodney Conductor BNSF

[Anonymous]

Train length has not changed with the rco I used to work with it when I could not hold a road board. Rodney

[Anonymous]

Amen to that hire out Noel just to find out what you realy do not know about working on the railroad or do you just quote the the book of fantisy railroading. I also print Noel`s post and everyone has a big laugh. Rodney Conductor BNSF

[jeffhergert]

I work for the outfit in yellow and gray. When rcos first came to a terminal on my sen.dist a local tv station noticed the unmanned eng signs and talked to a local official. The reporter stated that the official said that rco's were only being tested in yard oprns, that over the road remote control was not POLITICALY feasible.
So what's a rr to do? Hire a hollywood star to do voice overs for a tv commercial telling everyone that we're "Building America" maybe?
I was working that terminal at the time because my seniority wouldn't let me work the term'l I normally work. In fact, a good portion of people working with me were in the same situation. So the rr brings in rcos. I qualified because at the time it guaranteed me 60 days of employment. Eventually quite a few from the other home terminal qualified. So when traffic picked up, they wouldn't let us transfer back after the 60 day period and didn't want to hold more classes. After about another month they started holding more classes and let us exercise our seniority again and a good portion moved leaving the terminal short-handed for a few weeks. They just called us to dead-head down and work (at least paid miliage)or work one rco qualified and one not qualified crew (so much for the touted safety aspect).
Is there a place for rco? Yes, there are some places a two man rco makes some sense. Maybe an industry job that only handles 10 or 15 cars at a time. Certainly not a switching lead building or doubling out trains.
Also I believe any savings on labor are off-set by lower productivity, more wear on the equipment. Our rco instructors said as much. I heard that every once and a while they had to take the slugs carrying the electrical gear out of service to true up the wheels. Fuel conservation practices that are stressed to engineers went out the window for the rco.
As far as letting on board computers replace people, it seems most of the engine failures are computer related. When loco mtce (I'm told one person answers all the power problems for the whole rr, had to save some costs somewhere) answers, their usual advice is to stop and re-boot the computer and if that doesn't work they'll put a road failure in the computer system for the shop.
Maybe if the maintained their equipment in the first place, a lot of problems could be solved.

[Anonymous]

Thank You Jeff. This is just what I ( and MOST of us) though. RCO would be great at a steel or a paper mill, for smaller build ups, but not building an entire train!
Icemanmike- Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

Listen to this man. He speaks the truth. I am in the same situation on the Green and Orange RR.
The UP's slogan: We Will Assimilate.
The BNSF's slogan: We Will Follow the UP's Lead.

UP=Unclean Power
BNSF=But Nobody Said Furlough
Ken