Originally posted by electro-ortcele [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply ndbprr Member sinceSeptember 2002 7,486 posts Posted by ndbprr on Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:47 AM What makes some people like certain women and others aren't impressed? Or how about the color or brand of car you drive? Value judgements are always arguable and wise people just smile and listen. It isn't a good idea to tell someone his wife is ugly or his engine choice is illogical. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:00 AM It's one of the last true Steamers, and people always flock to to it as a reminder of what steam was capable of. Reply Edit eolafan Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Aurora, IL 4,515 posts Posted by eolafan on Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:15 AM What makes it great? The same thing that impressed people with the DDA40X, the G.E. turbines, the SD45 in its time, and recently the SD90 units from EMD...RAW POWER! Eolafan (a.k.a. Jim) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:21 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr What makes some people like certain women and others aren't impressed? Or how about the color or brand of car you drive? Value judgements are always arguable and wise people just smile and listen. It isn't a good idea to tell someone his wife is ugly or his engine choice is illogical. well it's not subjective when someone says that this engine could pull more cars up the grades than any other locomotive. That is eithe true or false. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:24 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by eolafan What makes it great? The same thing that impressed people with the DDA40X, the G.E. turbines, the SD45 in its time, and recently the SD90 units from EMD...RAW POWER! I'm not asking why people are impressed by it. I'm asking why do they say it was the most powerfull steamer, when it it was actually quite weak in tractive effort compared to some other steamers of the time. Reply Edit eolafan Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Aurora, IL 4,515 posts Posted by eolafan on Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:27 AM OK, how about this...the Big Boy could move the same amount of tonnage (or perhaps even more on some grades) than several smaller steamers just as the DDA40X, the turbines, etc. could displace several or more smaller locomotives with one single unit...this was a U.P. tradition for many years...ON U.P. BIGGER WAS BETTER. Eolafan (a.k.a. Jim) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:51 AM It was advertised as the biggest by UP. The big boys were built to help keep 'em rolling in World War II. It also higher speed than for example the Y6-b which had more tractive effort. Reply Edit samfp1943 Member sinceJune 2003 From: South Central,Ks 7,170 posts Posted by samfp1943 on Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:59 AM The Big Boy locomotives developed a certain mistique about them, whether it was size, raw ability to pull heavy trains up steep grades or to see something moving freight with the speeds they were able to achieve,[ moving perishaibles and merchandise over the system with a lot of panache]. It was truly the last of the really big articulated steam engines and as eolafan stated "ON THE UP, BIGGER WAS BETTER" and that too was part of character of the Big Boys. I guess that where this class of locomotives was concerned it was truly a case of 'size matters'. Reply balearic Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Elmira Branch 81 posts Posted by balearic on Saturday, November 26, 2005 10:58 AM But if higher horsepower was all that mattered, why not just copy the Pennsy's Q2's and have done with it? Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:11 AM ....Somehow the phrasing of "biggest" got tagged to it true or not...Even it's name was tagged to it by a worker and it stuck...."Big Boy".... It was built to pull tonnage up Sherman Hill...{if I remember correctly}, and in so doing would replace several smaller units and of course reducing number of crew to do the job. It is a locomotive that really looks like super power and most fans and probably railroaders liked it too... It was kinda rare...{believe 25 was the total built}....so it was unique in a way.... It is arguable if it really is the "biggest"...Personally from what I've studied on it, it's not. But for many reasons....the masses believe it's the greatest and most powerful...when most likely it wasn't quite up to that billing. Pennsy's Q2 {again, I hope I'm remembering correctly}, was mighter in some ways. Quentin Reply jockellis Member sinceMay 2002 From: Just outside Atlanta 422 posts Posted by jockellis on Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:55 AM G'day, Y'all, Size matters but so does speed. The Y-6bs and the C&O and Virginian locomotives (I cannot spell Alleg something) were designed for lower speed coal field to port operations. While they could have pulled bigger trains up Sherman Hill, it would have taken them longer to get to the top. Also, 4000s worked alone. Y-6bs were almost always joined by several other Y-6bs in pushing and pulling staggering amounts of tonnage. Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers Reply coborn35 Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Duluth,Minnesota,USA 4,015 posts Posted by coborn35 on Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:55 PM Actually, the largest locomotives (steam) the D.M.I.R used had more tractive effort than Big Boy. They were called Yellowstones, and classified 2-8-8-4's. Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..." The Missabe Road: Safety First Reply GP40-2 Member sinceJuly 2004 803 posts Posted by GP40-2 on Saturday, November 26, 2005 1:07 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jockellis G'day, Y'all, Size matters but so does speed. The Y-6bs and the C&O and Virginian locomotives (I cannot spell Alleg something) were designed for lower speed coal field to port operations. While they could have pulled bigger trains up Sherman Hill, it would have taken them longer to get to the top. Also, 4000s worked alone. Y-6bs were almost always joined by several other Y-6bs in pushing and pulling staggering amounts of tonnage. Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! concerning the H8 Allegheny. It WAS NOT designed for pulling low speed coal drags. That is however, how the C&O ended it's career after diesels came on line. Everything about the H8's design, from its driver diameters, to its huge firebox/boiler (the most powerful ever put on a steamer) was designed for high speed horsepower. The only advantage the Big Boy had over the Allegheny was it's higher starting tractive effort. Once they both got a train moving, the Allegheny would simply run away and hide from a Big Boy. Reply feltonhill Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Northern VA 484 posts Posted by feltonhill on Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:10 PM GP40-2 probably won’t believe this but I’m going to agree with his appraisal of the Allegheny. As far as test results are concerned, it posted the highest sustainable drawbar HP known (about 6,500 to 6,700 at 47 mph). And this was done using achievable firing and evaporation rates. C&O did not typically flog their locomotives during tests to obtain unrealistic results. Sure, sure, everybody knows it produced a maximum DBHP of 7,498 at 47 mph, but that was a maximum point on the scatter plot of data, not a sustained reading (see page 204, The Allegheny, Lima’s Finest by Gene Huddleston). Under the same over the road conditions (normal firing and evaporation rates), Big Boy posted about 6,100 DBHP at 36 mph (see Big Boy, pg20 by William Kratville). And this was using UP’s not-so-good grade of coal. The PRR Q2's oft-quoted maximum HP of 7,987 at 57.4 mph is actually indicated HP, measured in the cylinders. It is not drawbar HP by any stretch of the word. This figure was achieved at extremely high firing rates on the Altoona test plant and could not be considered reasonable over the road. In comparative tests with N&W’s A 2-6-6-4, the Q2 could not match the speed or operating economy of the A with the same load. So why do people say Big Boy is the biggest, most powerful, etc, etc, when in fact it wasn’t? Easy!! Myths and legends are a lot more fun than dry old statistics and reality any day. Take something that’s physically imposing, stir in some impressive operation, spice it up with a little exaggeration, and there you are - a recipe for legend. This sort of thing happens in a lot of different fields, but it seems to be epidemic in railroad history. A bit of healthy skepticism can be useful to evaluate how horsepower readings were obtained.. Reply BaltACD Member sinceMay 2003 From: US 25,292 posts Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, November 26, 2005 7:39 PM Educuate yourselves http://www.steamlocomotive.com/bigboy/ Never too old to have a happy childhood! Reply edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Saturday, November 26, 2005 7:55 PM Considering what the Big Boys did during WW2 they were impressive. Now the Allegahany's of the C&O were larger and heavier , but they were not used right. If they had been used in a high speed freight service then let the dogs loose. I for one like the Alleganhy's over the Big-Boy. At least the Alleghany's had a feedwater heater the Big Boy only have a live steam injectorwhich cost it probaly 10-15 % in steaming capacity. Still for what they did they were special. Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:04 PM Can't believe no-one said "TWO BOILERS!!"" Reply Edit BaltACD Member sinceMay 2003 From: US 25,292 posts Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:10 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by milmat1 Can't believe no-one said "TWO BOILERS!!"" Because there weren't....one boiler, two articulated engines. Never too old to have a happy childhood! Reply MJ4562 Member sinceOctober 2005 From: Central Texas 365 posts Posted by MJ4562 on Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:55 PM Tell a lie loud enough and long enough and people will believe it's true. I'm not saying anyone lied, just that perception is often mistaken for truth. The Big Boy was a huge and impressive locomotive by any standard. It may not have been the biggest of the giant steamers but for whatever reason it received the most attention by the press. Since few people other than rail enthusiasts really care about the facts of which was actually bigger or more powerful the legend becomes fact in popular culture. Things like that have a way of perpetuating themselves until someone comes along and dispells the myth. Reply feltonhill Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Northern VA 484 posts Posted by feltonhill on Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:30 PM Steamlocomotive.com is an interesting website and a good place to find a lot of info in one place. However, for Tractive Effort and Horsepower it is has some problems with accuracy. Some examples: PRR S1 rated at 7,200 DBHP. Maximum documented was about 5,300 DBHP. 1200 tons at 100 mph doesn’t support the figure because that level of performance doesn’t require that much DBHP. 3,500 DBHP would be more like it on level tangent track NYC's S1b developed 6,680 IHP at 85 mph. 5,050 DBHP was developed at 63 mph, not 85 mph. Maximum IHP and DBHP never occur at the same speed. This is documented in extensive test results PRR T1 6,110 DBHP is actually LDBHP measured on the Altoona test plant. It’s not at the rear of the tender. This is also documented in extensive test results N&W J 6,000 IHP was never measured based on surviving test reports. N&W didn’t put much stock in IHP, only DBHP N&W Y6b 170,000 lbs starting TE in simple. Booster valve is irrelevant when starting. (See N&W Giant of Steam by L. I. Jeffries, second edition available in a week or two) N&W A 6,800 DBHP at 38 mph. Incorrect. The author over-estimated the grade by a factor of 10 (see Nov 1991 and May 1992 Trains, and extensive rebuttals in N&W Historical Society’s magazine The Arrow May/June 1994 and Jan/Feb 1998) N&W Y6b 5,600 DBHP operating in simple. No, it was operating in compound at 25 mph. It could not sustain simple operation at that speed. Booster valve also not used to achieve this figure (see Jeffries’ book) There’s more but I think you get the drift. It’s a good idea to get educated, but don’t believe everything you see on the net or any place else. Read and evaluate independently from several sources or risk being misled. Locomotive performance evaluation is very difficult to do on a consistent basis. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:27 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD Educuate yourselves http://www.steamlocomotive.com/bigboy/ Well, I just did. Great site. Lots of good info for a relative newbie like myself. Thanks for that link[8D] Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, November 27, 2005 10:55 AM The UP put on a agressive public relations campaign during the War. The said it was the biggest locomotive often and loud. Since I always beleve what a read in the papers it must be true. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:21 PM The only answer now would be an H8, Y6b and a Big Boy head to Head over the same conditions and see who was top dog. It's a shame that non are in a operating condtition but if anyone ever came up with a scheme where this was going to be done and needed contributions, i'd put $100 in. http://julian-sprott.fotopic.net Reply Edit traintownofcowee Member sinceJune 2005 From: Franklin, NC 166 posts Posted by traintownofcowee on Sunday, November 27, 2005 3:46 PM Without the bigboys our American butts would've gotten whooped big time. Bigboys had almost unlimited power at the time. People were even wondering,"how much power did those things have?" Obviously the "Cenntenial" locomotives were big, the challengers were big, the Garatts in Africa were big, and so were the bigboys. There were many big locomotives, but the bigboy had something very specail. Was it the name? The size? The weight? The power? You decide. But in "engli***erms" the bigboy was and still is a very wonderful train. C U ALL L8TER!!! [:)][8D][:D][^][:P][;)][X-)][%-)][(-D][swg][:)] [bow][{(-_-)}][#welcome][#ditto][#ditto] Take a Ride on the Scenic Line! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, November 27, 2005 3:56 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cuddlyjools The only answer now would be an H8, Y6b and a Big Boy head to Head over the same conditions and see who was top dog. It's a shame that non are in a operating condtition but if anyone ever came up with a scheme where this was going to be done and needed contributions, i'd put $100 in. http://julian-sprott.fotopic.net That's the easy part, finding a qualified shop with available space, qualified operators,track time and space, and a very understanding benevelant railroad officer with a since of humor. Then mabe something like what you're talking about might happen. Good luck. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, November 27, 2005 4:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by cuddlyjools The only answer now would be an H8, Y6b and a Big Boy head to Head over the same conditions and see who was top dog. It's a shame that non are in a operating condtition but if anyone ever came up with a scheme where this was going to be done and needed contributions, i'd put $100 in. http://julian-sprott.fotopic.net That's the easy part, finding a qualified shop with available space, qualified operators,track time and space, and a very understanding benevelant railroad officer with a since of humor. Then mabe something like what you're talking about might happen. Good luck. Yeah, but money can fix all of that [:)]! Get volunteers to do at least some of the job. Sincerely, Daniel Parks Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, November 27, 2005 4:22 PM Daniel:Your confidence is an inspiration to us all, a bit overly optimistic, but inspiring just the same. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, November 27, 2005 4:35 PM But Big Boys are the largest: Firstly, in the arena of size, I do not dispute the fact that the Big Boy engine itself weighed less than the Allegheny. However, the Big Boy with tender weighed appreciably more than the Allegheny. Furthermore, and even more importantly, the Big Boys had the greater adhesive weight (weight of the locomotive supported on the driving wheels), in part because the firebox was suppoted over the last two driving axles in addition to the four wheel trailing truck. Why this greater adhesive weight is relevant is that the adhesive weight affects the factor of adhesion, giving the 4000 class more "grip" on the rails. And don't think that locomotives as large as the 4000 class and Allegheny didn't have wheel slippage: they did, and I can prove it. Furthermore, the Big Boys were larger in other ways: they were longer, and more. Secondly, in the area of pulling power, I of course acknowledge the Allegheny's greater horse-power. But let us not forget that the Big Boys had a much greater tractive effort. And while there were some locomotives with greater tractive effort, no locomotive had greater tractive effort and horse-power. However, railroads have locomotives to pull trains, not to brag about having the largest locomotive. As such, we should pay even more attention to the Big Boy's and Allegheny's perforance and service than their basic specifications. The 4000 class locomotives were very reliable, and were very efficient and relatively inexpensive to operate and maintain for locomotives of their immensity. Of course, those who wi***o detract from the Big Boy's legacy point out that they burned up to 12 tons of coal per hour and used thousands of gallons of water in the course of a run. But what they conveniently omit is what a cost savings these beloved 4-8-8-4s were to the Uncle Pete. The largest locomotive of all time probably saved the Union Pacific millions of dollars by eliminating the crew costs of double heading, the extra maintenance costs of many helper locomotives, and the time lost in the turning and servicing of these helpers. At the time that the Big Boys were being scrapped, a Union Pacific employee said "these locomotives don't owe this railroad a thing," to paraphrase him. And then let us also account for the 4000 class's legacy and reputation. What other locomotive has routinely hauled five and one-half mile long trains at speeds exceeding 65 miles per hour? And of course we all know of these locomotives literally shaking the ground as they passed. Don't believe me? Get the Pentrex video on the Big Boys: it has footage where the ground shook so much the camera shook as well! And of course, the world's longest train of all time was pulled by dobleheading Big Boys-7 and 1/2 miles of train, although we sadly cannot prove it. I hope I have demonstrated to you that the Big Boys really were superior. I encourage all Union Pacific fans, all supporters of the Big boys, and anyone else who agrees with me to post here stating so--especially those of you with Big Boy in your screen names. I am of course not saying that the Allegheny type locomotives should be ignored, only that the Big Boys be given the title they have certainly earned in the past 60 years. Sincerely, Daniel Parks Reply Edit 1234567 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr What makes some people like certain women and others aren't impressed? Or how about the color or brand of car you drive? Value judgements are always arguable and wise people just smile and listen. It isn't a good idea to tell someone his wife is ugly or his engine choice is illogical.
QUOTE: Originally posted by eolafan What makes it great? The same thing that impressed people with the DDA40X, the G.E. turbines, the SD45 in its time, and recently the SD90 units from EMD...RAW POWER!
Quentin
Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
QUOTE: Originally posted by jockellis G'day, Y'all, Size matters but so does speed. The Y-6bs and the C&O and Virginian locomotives (I cannot spell Alleg something) were designed for lower speed coal field to port operations. While they could have pulled bigger trains up Sherman Hill, it would have taken them longer to get to the top. Also, 4000s worked alone. Y-6bs were almost always joined by several other Y-6bs in pushing and pulling staggering amounts of tonnage. Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
QUOTE: Originally posted by milmat1 Can't believe no-one said "TWO BOILERS!!""
QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD Educuate yourselves http://www.steamlocomotive.com/bigboy/
Best Regards, Big John
Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway
Take a Ride on the Scenic Line!
QUOTE: Originally posted by cuddlyjools The only answer now would be an H8, Y6b and a Big Boy head to Head over the same conditions and see who was top dog. It's a shame that non are in a operating condtition but if anyone ever came up with a scheme where this was going to be done and needed contributions, i'd put $100 in. http://julian-sprott.fotopic.net
QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by cuddlyjools The only answer now would be an H8, Y6b and a Big Boy head to Head over the same conditions and see who was top dog. It's a shame that non are in a operating condtition but if anyone ever came up with a scheme where this was going to be done and needed contributions, i'd put $100 in. http://julian-sprott.fotopic.net That's the easy part, finding a qualified shop with available space, qualified operators,track time and space, and a very understanding benevelant railroad officer with a since of humor. Then mabe something like what you're talking about might happen. Good luck.
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