Metra vs Multiple Cars

[Chris30]

Huh? Didn't do enough to prevent cars from stopping on the tracks? Gates. Check. Bells. Check. Big yellow sign that says not to stop on the tracks. Check..

Now for the tough questions:
-If a driver on a public road is stopped on a railroad crossing when the gates are down is that considered tresspassing?
-If the stop lights at intersections close to railroad tracks are not connected to the railroad crossing signal system - and we know that they were not in the Elmwood Park incident - who is responsible? The railroad? The state of Illinois? Or, both? Actually, the NTSB made recomendations regarding the distance that traffic signals should be from a railroad crossing / crossing signals and either be coordinated or work indepently. The NTSB is national government. Does that mean the national government is on the hook?

I think this is going to get messy. Hopefully, when all is said and done something good will come from this and it will lead to improvements that prevent this type of accident from happening again. Remember, nobody died in this accident. That's what really matters.

CC

[senshi]

Well the news just said that the first lawsuit as a result of the accident has been filed.

The jist is that Metra didn't do enough to prevent them from being in the way of the train, high speed, un-coordinated traffic signals, etc.

I really hope that this case gets thrown out. Given this lawyers line of thinking I can go over and park my car on the tracks through town and sue UP after I get hit due to the fact that they didn't do enough to prevent me from having my car on the tracks.[:(!]

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken
In light of what happened here in Colorado last year, I think METRA ought to seize the high ground. (The best defense being a good offense)....[}:)][}:)][}:)]

Muddy,
What happened in Colorado last year?

Jim

The Missy Martin Court Case

[Anonymous]

I WORK FOR A MAJOR RAILROAD AS A SIGNAL MTR I HAVE 2 XINGS INTERCONNECTED WITH STOP LIGHTS. HAD THIS XING HAD BEEN INTERCONNECTED WITH THE TRAFFIC SIGNAL THE XING APPROACHES WOULD BE LONGER WHICH MEANS MORE WARNING TIME.ALSO WHEN THE XING GATES START TO FLA***HE TRAFFIC SIGNAL TURNS GREEN TO LET THE CARS OF THE XING. EVEN WHEN THE GATES ARE DOWN THE TRAFFIC LIGHT STAYS GREEN TO LET CARS CLEAR OF THE XING BEFORE THE TRAIN GETS THERE. READING ALL OF THE NEWS REPORTS I READ THAT THE CITY OF HOMEWOOD WAS TOLD TO INTERCONNECT THE TRAFFIC SIGNALS WITH THE XING GATES ALOT OF TOWNS AND CITIES DID THIS AFTER THE FOX RIVER GROVE CRASH.

[Anonymous]

I agree with you, Chris, and I think it's a dangerous idea to somehow allow the public to believe that there is a "safe" rate at which an engine can strike car and driver! If the citizen is ignorant enough, s/he can get mauled to death at 5 mph!

As for Elmwood Park, it appears that another signal could be installed and that the forward traffic light could be made a slave to stay on green when a Metra train is a certain distance away. Just offhand, that strikes me as the kind of common-sense solution that wouldn't cost too much money.

But we also need really FIERCE enforcement of track-crossing (or should I say standing?) laws.

[Chris30]

Asking Metra to slow it's trains at dangerous crossings in promoting dangerous driving habits. Slower trains = more drivers who think that they can beat the train at the crossing. Slower trains = less impact when the slow train hits the absent minded driver. Slower trains = reducing the effectiness of Metra by creating longer commute times and perhaps a certain number of commuters will return to driving. What to do? What to do? Close the crossing? Build a bridge/underpass? Align the stop lights with the crossing gates? Huge fines? Trap doors? Giant magnetic cranes? Let Metra continue to run at 70mph with huge pillows attached to the front of trains? All joking aside, I don't care how fast the trains run at this crossing, accidents are still going to happen. Either put an approach stop light (turns yellow/red 20 seconds ahead of the stop light at the inersection ahead) at the crossing or close it. Traffic can be rerouted and a bridge/underpass can be built if needed and when the $$$ is available.

CC

[jeaton]

Greyhounds-As I noted, the next guy that comes in could win pointing out that slow moving Haz-Mat cars are easier trargets for terrorists.

According to the Trains.com Newswire tonight, reduced speed for Hazardous Material cars is an idea being promoted by the NTSB. Next thing you know, they will recommend that airplanes fly lower and slower.

[greyhounds]

OK, I'm an Illinois native and my home is still there. I actually live a mile south of Antioch and I rode those trains over that crossing when I worked in downtown Chicago. I love Illinois. Its beauty, its history, its native soil are things that I really do love.

But the state's government is just beyond repair. Our "current" ex-govenor is on trial. If he's convicted he will continue a long tradition of former Illinois governors going to prison. It's a literal tradition in Illinois that former governors go to prison. We got a couple smart and/or clean ones, and the tradition was in danger, but George Ryan has probably saved it.

Our current govenor is a freaking moron. He launched his campaign for office against a proposed movement of Viet Nam era napalm through the state to a recycling facility in E. Chicago, IN. It was not in any way more dangerous than hauling other flamable liquids by any mode. People lost good, honest work over that. And you know what, "He Don't Care, He Got Elected."

He posed in front of the southern rail enterance to C.U.S., which was no where near where the napalm would move, and he got a large photo and story on the front page of the Chicago Sun-Times. He just played on the fear of the word "Napalm" and the media went along. They know a good sensational story that will sell papers when they smell it.

It doesn't suprise me that "HIS" commission slapped a 30 mph restriction on the hazmat trains while ignoring the trucks. Hey, you gotta' "appear" to be doing things.

Abe Lincoln, who helped get the railroads going in Illinois, would hang his head, if not actually weep.

[CShaveRR]

My wife has decided to save energy by using me instead of the oven tonight--I'm already doing a slow burn over this.

[jeaton]

After posting my thought about the reduced speed limit, I realized that the clowns at the Illinois Commerce Commission were the ones that imposed the limit. Then MC posts the note that the that same bunch of "experienced, forward thinking" group have but a 30MPH speed limit on trans with Haz Mats.

What kind of fools are they. Don't they know that slowing the speed of Haz Mat cars will make them easier targets for terrorists? (That ought to put a little squirm on the situation>)

Sometimes I wonder how some of these idiots get there jobs. Oh yeah, I remember, cash into the campaign fund qualifies you for any job.

[Anonymous]

The proposal to slow down Antioch expess service from 70 mph to 30 mph may be pragmatic politics, but it is poor common sense. It will send a message that certain Metra trains go "too fast" and my fear is it will set a precedent for other crossings that could be made safer with better signalling -- and of course rational drivers. As was mentioned above, our Chicago-area commuter trains are so popular BECAUSE they go fast enough between intermediate stations to be faster than rush-hour commuting by car.

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30

At car crushing & recycling plants they have cranes with giant magnets on the end. How about we posistion one of these bad boys at the crossing and every time a car gets stuck beyond the crossing the big magnet comes down, picks the car up & tosses it off to the side. Ok, I'm just messing around, but I'll bet my idea is cheaper than the $60 million bridge/underpass.

CC

Great idea Chris, I was thinking more along the lines of a giant trap door that lead to a underground car crusher. Of course the offending driver would have the oppertunity to get all there belongings out of the car and be on there way. But the car would be confiscated, crushed, and go to scrap.[:0]

Seriously though, how about raising the fine for stopping on the tracks to a couple thousand dollars and enforceing it. Hit em in the wallet and they just might remember how it hurts. If not the money raised could go tward grade seperation.

[mudchicken]

(1) I don't see the Illinois Corporation Commission slowing the cross-traffic down to restricted speed ?

(2) I still haven't seen or heard that the offending 2-6 motorists were charged. (They ought to have their licenses revoked and have to rew-apply! )[}:)]

PS - Illinois Commerce Commission just slapped a 30 MPH speed restriction on hazmat tank cars in ANY train - Why aren't the more dangerous truckers similarly restrained?

[CShaveRR]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Here is another thought about getting the message to the public. Hand out a simple flyer to the drivers stopped at the beyond traffic signal that explains why the driver should wait at the "big yellow sign" until there is room for the car on the other side of the tracks.

Jay

Jay--Pat liked this idea, but thinks that instead of leaflets they should be "Gotcha" stickers with the message--something that they'd have to use a little effort to remove from car windows.

[Chris30]

At car crushing & recycling plants they have cranes with giant magnets on the end. How about we posistion one of these bad boys at the crossing and every time a car gets stuck beyond the crossing the big magnet comes down, picks the car up & tosses it off to the side. Ok, I'm just messing around, but I'll bet my idea is cheaper than the $60 million bridge/underpass.

CC

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken
In light of what happened here in Colorado last year, I think METRA ought to seize the high ground. (The best defense being a good offense)....[}:)][}:)][}:)]

Muddy,
What happened in Colorado last year?

Jim

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

Jay, you're making far too much sense here!

Carl-Not so sure it makes that much sense, but I am for running something up the flag pole to see who salutes.

Jay

[CShaveRR]

Jay, you're making far too much sense here!

[jeaton]

According to one of the articles cited above, there seems to be some severe complications to adjusting the traffic lights to provide enough "green" to be sure that traffic will clear the crossing before the gates go down or the train arrives.

Very obselete thinking in this day and age, but why not some manual auto traffic protection. Set up a highway stop sign at the crossing for use during the rush hour with a traffic officer controling the movement of cars on and over the tracks. When there is room on the other side of the tracks for cars to clear, they get a go. When not, the officer holds cars.

Very old fashioned, but let see-15 cars totaled at say $15 grand apiece-about a quarter of a mill total. Auto insurance covers the damage, but guess where the money comes for the claims. One or two traffic officers for say 4 hours per week day goes for what?

Here is another thought about getting the message to the public. Hand out a simple flyer to the drivers stopped at the beyond traffic signal that explains why the driver should wait at the "big yellow sign" until there is room for the car on the other side of the tracks.

Jay

[Anonymous]

We had one here a few months ago - someone managed to get stuck on the crossing, then the barriers came down. No damage done as it's a manually-activated crossing (train stops, crew member climbs down and pushes a button to start the lights and barriers). By this stage the wally who had failed to ensure that there was enough space for their car was panicing rather than actually doing anything sensible (such as either bailing out or reversing parallel to the barrier - this used to be a twin-track crossing so there'd be ample room if you moved onto the part where the second track used to be). I can but hope the experience scared them enough to stop them doing something equally daft on a line with automated barriers and non-stop trains...

[SALfan]

Before we condemn too much the motorists who stopped where they shouldn't have, we need to remember that all of us occasionally do dumb things behind the wheel. I have, and I'd bet my next paycheck that at least once in his or her life everyone on this forum has done something stupid while driving. I'm not excusing those folks, I'm just saying that none of us are perfect drivers 100% of the time. Just some food for thought.

[CShaveRR]

I wi***hey hadn't reduced the speed at that crossing. Regardless of how many incidents have occurred there, hundreds of times as often the trains have made it through without incident, at speed. Most of the day this will not be a problem, as the Metra trains stop at the adjacent station anyway. North Central service may lose some time, as will the rush-hour service on Milwaukee West. Maybe Metra should have come out and said that speed would be reduced, without giving the new speed, then made a token reduction, down to about 55.

However, I guess I should visit the scene of the crime (word used advisedly) before I say any more on what should and shouldn't be done to the roads and the tracks in that area.

[Anonymous]

Maybe what's needed is a stoplight west of the crossing for eastbound traffic timed to go red before the stoplight to the east does, allowing the traffic to clear the tracks. One of those automated photo-enforcement cameras like Chicago is using should stop people from running the red light.

[eolafan]

Like so very many other times in our current society, those in the wrong will end up getting the ultimate decisions in their favor. No wonder our children are growing up as dummies with no common sense.

[jeaton]

And so the commuters take the hit, timewise. From the word we have here, there have been more than a few close calls at this crossing. I guess it can be said that Metra is showing good citizenship on this issue.

Instructions should be that when an engineer sees cars stopped on the tracks, turn off the lights on the engine, come to a stop just before entering the crossing and then lean on the horn. Ten atta boys for each driver that panics and rear ends the car ahead. LOL

Jay

[eolafan]

Chicago Tribune reported this morning that Metra has decided to reduce the speed limit for their trains through the Grand Avenue crossing (the one where this accident happened) to a permanent 30 mph until somebody builds an overpass bridge or underpass tunnel to prevent future crashes. This would not be necessary if only drivers would obey the RR crossing "rules of the road".[banghead]

[mudchicken]

Waiting to see if the local gumshoes will EVER issue citations to the two or three offending motorists. In light of what happened here in Colorado last year, I think METRA ought to seize the high ground. (The best defense being a good offense)....[}:)][}:)][}:)]

[jeaton]

LC- The locals would know but I think I read that there are traffic dividers at the center that would keep a driver from going into the on-coming lanes to go around the gates. Most of the Chicago area is subject to quiet zone ordinances, but I am not sure all of these crossings meet the quiet zone standards.

I think that part of the problem with the accident crossing is that people just don't get the sign. I am not trying to exonerate drivers from the error of there ways, but I suspect many think that the sign means "DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS ON PURPOSE". In other words, people may think that the prohibition is against just sitting on the tracks. However, if you have to stop on the tracks because the car ahead of you is stopped and blocking your way, well, that's different.

I don't know how you can convey to drivers that they are not to enter the tracks until the road on the other side has room for their vehicle in the clear, but some smart highway traffic engineer better figure out a way. Otherwise these kinds of accidents will continue to happen.

The mud chicken might say that part of the problem is that "smart traffic engineer" is an oxymoron.

Jay

PS Sounds like the engineer on the train was right on the ball.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57

LC- Yeah, I heard about that on the radio on my way into work today. Hopefully it'll shed some light on the events a they actually happened (although as far as I'm concerned this was mostly the motorists at fault.)

One quick question that I haven't heard throughout the coverage: Was this a "quiet zone"?

Still, this got the railfan in me wondering: How many crossing does Homeland Security have cameras at and exactly why? I guess these would perhaps be considered " soft targets" but I'm unsure what the rationale would be for the funding of these cameras versus hiring more security personnel. And why did it take 4 days before anyone beside the government (I'm guessing they knew) heard that there was in fact a camera at the crossing. Of course I'd also like to know if they'd make the cameras accessible from the internet so I could wath the trains all day![:D]

TG -

Sorry, but I don't know if this crossing was a quiet zone. Given the size of the crossing I would doubt it given the various measures required for a quiet zones would seem very difficult if not impossible to deploy with a large non-standard crossing such as the one in question. Perhaps one of the guys in the local area can advise?

LC