hey, kids! what time is it?

[cabforward]

what watches are used nowadays? must all crewmen use a watch with the same accuracy, or just cond. and engineer?

watches are advertised that use signals from the us naval observatory for automatic calibration..
actually, the calibration happens once every 12 hours.. would this feature be acceptable?

my mom used to take her grand-dads watch to the watchmaker weekly for adjustment.. he ran steamer freights for the southern from n. orleans to hattiesburg and back, 3x/week until mid-1940s..

does the crew check their time before a run, with a std. clock in the yard?
do local/yard crews check the time? is it more critical for road crews to check the time, as they could pass thru boundaries of several districts (if that is the term) during a run?

with computers, gps, radio and other systems in place, is the time on a crewmans' wrist as important as it used to be? it seems that the time on a wristwatch would be one piece of the job.. it's always important to know where you are and when you are, but it's also critical to
watch the road, the load, and listen to voice on the radio.. it all has to work or be stopped in time, if you to laugh about it later..

[edblysard]

Wristwatches, which must have arabic numbers, not roman numerals. Pocket watches are discouraged as the chain is a catch hazzard. Should have military time, ie a 24 clokck if possible. On the PTRA, all crew members must have a accurate timepiece, per our timetable. Allowed 20 second diffrence from a standard clock, our's is set to the naval observatory also.
I use a Sharp quatrz wristwatch, which has military time inside the arabic numerals.
We have our watches checked at random, last time for me was dec 2002. We are no longer required to carry a watch card, which shows when and where your watch was checked, and who checked it. You can be removed from service if you do not have your watch, even though we no longer work on a scheduled railroad, via time table and track warrants, we are RTC here. But knowing what time it is and when you have to be somewhere or should expect a train to show up is still important.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Modelcar]

...The watches that do the automatic calibration by radio surely would be accepted for just about any work or business. The adjustment they make in 12 hrs. or so would be in hundreds of a second or less. I have one of the clocks that have that feature and sure is nice to be able to check one's watch to it occasionally. Casio has a wristwatch now with that feature and it is looking interesting.

QM

[wabash1]

the railroad i work for come out with a statement that all we need is a watch that is accurate to 30sec of standard time i have a digital watch with a stop watch feature. they require a second and or a device to read in seconds for the perpose of throwing switches and waiting time. Meaning if you have been given the right to come out of a track to the main in signal territory you must set up signal protection, some places might be 5 min others 6min30sec, and must be done to the second or risk being fired. all watches must be checked once a month on a standard clock.

[Mookie]

Wabash - I understand the timing, but would you explain further on the signal protection?

I understand the train is coming out of maybe a siding onto the main line - but I got lost after that.

Jen

[Anonymous]

Jenny, I think what Wabash is talking about is establishing block signal protection. We have the 5 min. rule. When we come off of a non signaled track onto signaled territory, like ABS, you look and listen for movement, line the switch and wait 5 min. What you are doing is throwing up the signals at either end of that block, red. The wait is to make sure that if there are any trains or engines in that block, they will have time to clear, or be seen. If there is no conflicting movement, you may proceed into that block and be governed by the rule "initiating movement within a block." This was off the top of my head. So if there are any inaccuracies that somebody catches, please let me know.
Ken.

[cabforward]

i follow most of the discussions here.. i don't get the part about lining a switch and waiting for something to happen.. doesn't everyone have a radio..?

[Mookie]

Ah, Thanx Ken - it was the 5 mins that I was stuck on. Now I understand!

[Anonymous]

I don't know about all this new high tech stuff, for now, I'll stick with my old Hamilton pocket watch that used to belong to a conductor on the Pennsy back in the 1940's. It needs daily adjustment, but what the heck? It's a piece of history. I'll put it up against any new electronic watch for the first 12 hours... After that, it needs to be syncronized...
Todd C.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, everybody has radios and a track warrant unless it is 9.13 (I think) cheap CTC, then you enter the ABS limits on verbal authority or signal indication. Still, what if the crew on the approaching train has gone out of their Track Warrant limits or is not listening to the radio close enough or you are joint inside those limits. 5 min. sure beats the alternative......

[cabforward]

i have some questions about throwing a switch and waiting for feedback:

what if something in the switch hook-up to the dispatcher's console mucks up? the switch is thrown but there's a short in the wiring; a connection is broken on the r-o-w; the indicator lamp is blown.. what if the dispacher is on the phone with another emergency and wouldn't see an indicator lamp anyway? what if the room is unattended? everybody needs to 'wa***heir hands' sometime, get a soda or whatever people need during a 12-hour shift..

if a location is 'dark territory', there should be a direct phone connection at the switchstand..

if a crew violates its track warrant, well, isn't that punishable as any other violation? how does a crew miss what is being said over the radio? doesn't every communication require a response? if someone calls and there is no answer, wouldn't there be repeated calls until a response is forthcoming?

in law enforcement, police dispatchers call every unit periodically to insure everyone's o.k.. lack of a response and everybody is looking for that car and man.. maybe that wouldn't work on r.rs., but it sure beats the alternative, which is the 5 min wait.. i think 5 min. heart attack is more like it..

maybe there aren't enough places with this problem to justify a whole re-structuring of a radio system.. but i have an idea it would only take one really bad muck-up involving long trains, or hazardous material or wrecks near a subdivision or hazardous chemical area and everyone's screaming blood murder, lawsuits, liability, etc.

and there's always one guy, maybe wih the r.r., local fire-rescue or whatever who says, 'yeah, it was just a matter of time.. this community knew we would see this.. of course, the r.r. knew, the state fire marshall knew, but noone could do anything because it's covered under federal law, and noone can supercede the fra, not even osha..'

conditions described above which are part of a train wreck show-up on page one everytime this happens.. it won't happen in my lifetime, but i wonder if people will ever open can of 'whup-**' on the the fra and demand safer procedures or close down r-o-w in question..

if an fra exec. woldn't tolerate such a condition outside his home, why should anyone else?

[Anonymous]

Being a signal engineer for thirty years, I hope I can shed some light. First, as you all know, a heavy train at speed can take a lot of time and distance to stop.

The signal system is generally designed so that a broken wire, short circuit, or any other failure will cause the signals they control to revert to a stop aspect, the instant the failure occurs.

None of ever wants to make a mistake - and certainly hopes the boss doesn't catch us when we do. But as you know, it is all so easy for humans to make mistakes.

Now suppose that someone were to erroneously believe he had authority to come out on the main, or that the dispatcher erroneously gave that auhority, when an approaching train is in the next block having entered it on a green. He will then be approaching your block without sufficient time and distance to stop before running the red into your block.

Under the five minute rule, the approaching train will have had time to stop, or at least will have come into the view of the switchman, and will have hopefully stopped before pranging your switch. Now if that red was caused by your train going out onto the block, there is a great possibility of a colision.

If you can get a hold of NTSB accident reports, you will see that almost all accidents are the result of a long chain of unusual events. So the key to effective accident prevention is to deliberately break that chain in as many places as possible. Each part of the signal system, and each rule such as the five minute rule, breaks one link in the long chain of events to an accident. So the more hedges there are between us and the accident, the safer we are.

Hope that helps.

Have a Happy!
RmC

[edblysard]

Hey there Cabforward,
Gonna try to explain, but from the sound of your post you already made up your mind we're dummies.
Broken wire or switch. The track is the "wire" it carries the current. Any breaks in the curcit causes the next signal to go red, absolute stop indication. A burned out bulb, or dark signal is to be treated as a absolute stop also. Stop, call the DS, and proceed if allowed, at restricted speed, which is, "at a speed which allows you to stop within one half the visual range of locomotives, cars men equipment or other objects fouling the track".
Running a red signal gets the engineer 30 days fired, no exceptions, and his license is held for those 30 days. Second time within three years is 90 days, three times within three years hes out. Radios fail, and sometimes there is a lot of traffic on them, and we do miss some comunications. And why is a five minute wait such a big deal? It can take that long to get the train moving, and five minutes isnt too long to wait to make sure another train dosnt come along and wipe me off the face of the planet.
As for train wrecks and such, you stand a better chance of being struck and killed by lightening, or being hit by a car while crossing the street than being hurt in or by a train. Per million miles traveled railroads have a better safty record than any other type or mode of transportation, period. And considering what we do carry, and how much of it there is, you should realize we do a darn good job of it. The only reason train wrecks make the news is because trains are big, and make such pretty pictures. You could take the average tank car, and roll it down a hill, and the odds are it wouldnt leak, they are that tought. Chlorine, LPG, hexaine and hydrocyanatic acid, butane and lots of other really dangerous stuff travels by rail, millions of gallons every day, and every one gets the willies about it being on a train in their neighborhood or city, yet most of you dont seem to have a problem when its driving right beside you on the freeways.
The fact is, all of the rules we follow on the railroads are based on learning what does, and dosnt work, the hard way. Every rule in the train handeling section of the GCOR, and every rule in the general safty section is designed to work all by itself, to prevent a series of mistakes from causing a train wreck. Even if you break one of them, there are two more rules that should prevent you from getting killed. The redundency built into the rules we follow, even those that dont seem to make sense allows us to safely move millions of tons of freight every year. We did so before there were radios, and we have rules to goveren us now, even if our radios fail. I can line that switch, but I have to wait five minutes before I can move. I can move, but I have to go slow enought to be able to stop if someone else is in front of me. If my signal dosnt work, I have to stop and make sure I can proceed. If I cant get a answer, I cant proceed. If I cant proceed, I have to send someone to the rear of the train, at least a mile behind it, with a red flag, and put torpedoes on the rails to stop anyone behind me before he runs into my train. If I am stopped by a flagman, warning me of a train stopped ahead of me, i have to provide flag protection for my train also. If my radio dosnt work, and I can proceed, I can, but only at restricted speed to the next terminal or point where I can get a new, working radio. See how it works, a rule to cover a rule to cover a rule.
You cant run a railroad by radio and phones, the chance of error is to great.
And by the way, the FRA makes osha look like a bunch of sissies, if they get on your tail, you'd best just lay down and wait for them to tromp on you.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Wow, Cab. Alot of good questions and scenarios. I'll do my best here. First remember that we are talking about ABS. The signals are controlled by track conditions, not a control operator. As far as I know, when a switch is thrown, the control operator has nothing to do with that. The signals will go red at either end of that block, and to an approach at the previous block and so on. Non controlled signals are called intermediates. A red intermediate indication is to stop and proceed at restricted speed unless it has a grade marker. If trains or engines are at restricted speed they must be able to stop within half the range of vision, short of most everything including trains engines and switches improperly lined.
Broken wires will cause the signals at the ends of that block to go red.
Why would there need to be a phone at a switch stand in dark territory? Your track warrant will state if you are joint with anybody else within those limits and if a switch is lined against your movement depending on the boxes that you have checked when copying your warrant (or that are checked if your warrant was mechanically printed at your on duty point).
If a crew goes outside of its authority, there will be heck to pay, I can promise you that, but, it has happened. Usually, barring any odd circumstances, the radio is always answered.
You make the 5 min. wait sound so bad, it is just a safety measure (and very effective) to allow any movement in that block to clear. If a trains speed drops below 10 mph it is considered delayed within a block and must move at restricted speed until its leading wheels pass the next signal in ABS. There is more protection right there.
Cab, I'm not hackin' on you, and you have some good questions, but, there are rules that you aren't aware of that are in place to protect against what you are concerned with. We get fed rules every day and we are professionals. Also remember. We are personally liable for willful violations of FRA rules and can be penilized monitarily or by prison. Our rules are redundant and are written "in blood." For every rule out there, there was something that caused it to be put in place.
Also, you are speaking of burned out light bulbs. If a signal is dark it must be regarded as giving the most restrictive indication.
You also questioned about if the DS went on break etc. The switch machines are all very state of the art computer systems. They show how the track is lined and who is in them (CTC). You can't just walk up in CTC and throw a switch. There is a electric lock at the switch stand. If you monkey with it with out permission the DS will know and protect accordingly and you will be out of service. It has a timer on it also. It is possible to mess up, but there are many safety items in place to stop it.
Ken

[cabforward]

thank you ken.. you got it right when you said i am not aware of rules in place and other protective measures, which is why i ask many questions..

the questions i ask are based on what i read.. if i read something which is out-of-context or not the full story, i can't know that.. i go with what i am told, not what i would have known if the explanation were complete..

my views on this 5-min wait is, this is not a precision procedure and it is not something that brings an immediate result which can be understood by the crew..
all i have read about coordination of trains emphasizes radio (which i still haven't read why it won't fix this situation), trackside signals & cab signals.. more recently, computers are becoming messengers to give information about train movements..

with all this technology, a crewman throws a switch and waits a certain time period, after which it is probably o.k. to go ahead because nothing has happened to contradict it.. excuse me, but this seems merely hit-or-miss.. this procedure seems to have survived because no tragedy has yet come along to make a big stink over it..

but, if you guys say it's o.k., then it's o.k.. i have not been there, or done that
..and maybe that's a good thing..

[edblysard]

Cab,
maybe this will clairfy it some more. Most blocks are only a few miles long. 5 minutes at track speed is plenty to allow a train within that block to get by you.
The signals we are talking about are at either end, facing away from where you are. Whn you line the switch, both signals, at either end go red. No one may enter that block now. You own it till yuo clear the next signal.
There are several diffrent control systems in use. CTC, central traffic control. ABS, absolute block system. RTC, radio traffic control, (which is what my railroad uses)
CTC uses the big screen you are talking about, where every train has a identifier, and the dispatcher know where every train is at, within a few hundred feet. ABS is also displayed, on a big board or a computer screen, but only shows what block is occupied, not by whom, and dosnt indicate which direction they are moving. Time and track warrants take care of joint movements.
RTC is just what its name implies, raidos are used to coridnate train movement and meets. This type of traffic control is rarely used outside of short lines and terminal or belt roads like the PTRA.
But you also have to keep in mind that most crews are very familar with their distric or subdivision. They already know, from experience, what trains to expect, and when to expect them.
A good, old head hogger could make a run with his eyes closed, and probaly tell you exactly where you are by how hard or easy the engines is pulling, and what the grade feels like.
We often have to use the UP main line here, and there is a strech of track in Pasadena where you can stand on the front porch of the motor, and see three block ahead. You can watch the signal aspect change as you enter each block. And the 5 minute rule is diffrent on some roads. The blocks were designed by each railroad to fit their needs and type of train. So on wabash's road it may be 5 minutes, out on the Santa Fe in the middle of the desert, it may be 2 minutes. Here in the Houston swamps, its 5 minutes. There isnt a block so long than a train would take more than five minutes to clear it even if they started at the signal thats fartherst away from me. And if, by some chance, hes moving slower than track speed, he better be moving at restricted speed, which will allow him to stop within 1/2 the visual distance from me or my train. Now if he cant see me, the I must be in the middle of a sharp curve, because trains are hard to miss. On a straight section of track, he could see my train leaving the siding. So if this switch and siding are in a curve, how do you protect it? Because the track engineers would have installed several small blocks leading up to the siding. The signals are all interlocked. So if there is a red signal three blocks ahead of you, you will come up on a yellow, restricted speed at least two signals away from the red. The yellow also tells you that the next signal you will come up on will show either the same restriction, or the next most restrictive aspect. So now you slowed down to restriced speed, because you know the next signal is either going to be yellow also, or red. You keep going at restricted speed, ready to stop at the next signal, which you know is right around the bend. And when you get there, its red. You stop. You may not be able to see the siding I am coming out of, but the very fact that the last signal you had was other than green alerted you to the fact that something, a train, or a switch ligned against you, was ahead of you. Now I am clear of the siding, I have to do one of two things. Either I leave the switch lined for the siding, and call the dispatcher and ask him if I can leave it that way, or I line the switch, and walk to the head end of my train. If I am lucky, my track warrant will tell me I can leave it lined. Most of the time you can not, there is a rule about lining main line switches back for the current of traffic. So I line it back, walk to my locomotive, and we leave. You are still sitting at a red signal, and have never laid eyes on my train. And you will never see us, because the signal you are sitting at will remain red untill I get at least two blocks ahead of you, at which time you will get a yellow again. If I get three blocks ahead, because I am faster than you, you will start getting green aspects, indicating you can resume track speed. ABS is designed to keep trains at least two blocks seperated from each other.
Back to our story. What if I felt like getting fired, or just plain forgot to line the switch back? After a while, you get tired of sitting at a red signal, and you call the dispatcher to find out whats going on. By now, I have a three block lead on you. He looks at his screen, and sees me three blocks ahead of you. He checks his warrant sheet, and sees there is no one else that has time in the block ahead of you. He instructs you to proceed through the red signal, again at restricted speed. You do so, and come up on the switch I left bad. You stop, because you were moving at a speed that allowed you to stop within 1/2 the visual distance of...
Get the picture?
Every step we take directly affects the next move we can make. Every thing, and I mean every thing is redundent. Yes, mistakes will happen. There is always going to be someone who trys to beat the system. Its not perfect, but then, neither is driving your car. And there are plans to install a system that will use GPS to track and automaticly stop a train within a certain distance from another train, no matter what the crew does. But technology can only do so much. The opperating rules were written in blood, and most railroaders will never break them, because its their lives that will be lost.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[cabforward]

thank you for the background.. i couldn't memorize it, but it does sound logical from the outside.. redundancy certainly helps, with somebody who knows the r-o-w as well as his home address..

those of us 'railheads' with $$ to spend time available might want to sign up for the r.r. cond. training courses.. maybe this is crazy, but i think there could be a number of parties who would enroll just to learn more about the r.r. system.. they would not sign up for a job after grad.. they just want the knowledge that comes out of it..

if i had the $$, i would enroll for the training courses, up to field exercises and the final exam, in the final week.. the only difference is, instead of reporting for work with the 'northern & southern' branch of the 'eastern & western' r.r., i would drive home and wonder how those grads remember all that stuff when they are working 'live' with the real deal..

schools supporting the r.r. cond. program would benefit from the added tuition fees..

of course, applicants who only enroll for the knowledge aspects must pass all requirements, just as anyone who wants to r.r. after grad.. any thoughts?

[edblysard]

Most of us dont remember it all either. Thats why the rules require us to carry the rule book with us, every member of a crew must have a copy of the GCOR with them when on duty. That way, when a problem arises, we can look up the answer. All the major roads use the same copy of the GCOR, so there is no confusion. Local timetables can differ, but the rules say if you opperate on another railroads track, you must have a copy of their timetable and local rules, and follow them.
Go ahead and take the courses, knowledge is your best resource. Why quit before the final? The worst that could happen is you dont make it, the best is you end up with a switchmans certificate, no one says you have to sign on with any carrier.
And learning is a on going process, I have only been at it six years, and most days, I still learn something new.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Cab, think about the info that I have given. It is weird to grasp if you do not work with it and that is OK. OK, you have a block say 1 mile long. I want to come out of an industry into that block. A) I have allready got my authority to enter that block. B) If there is annother train moving within those limits, he will also know that he is joint with me within those limits via his Track Warrant. Now, he may be in that block. Now say that all radio contact is cut off (very unlikely) and he is allready within that said block and I want to come out. I will line that switch and wait 5 min. (signals going red at both ends of the block that I am fouling) to see if there are any conflicting movements. If he doesn't show in 5 min. (plenty of time to clear even at 20mph) I will proceed and line that switch back or not depending on what my warrant states, the other train will know what I'm gonna do by his warrant as well. Now for argument's sake lets say that the other train's speed drops below 10mph (in that case 5min. would not allow enough time to clear) he would by governed by the rule "delayed within a block," which means that he must move at restricted speed until the leading wheels pass the next signal. That means that if I am coming out and he sees me, he must be able to stop short. No excuses. It is a good system and is safe, and somewhat redundant, but, that is good.

[Anonymous]

Ed, I disagree with you on a red signal in ABS. If it is a number plated signal it is a stop and proceed. You may stop and proceed at restricted speed. So you may end up in the same block as annother train. Correct me if I am wrong. I am still young in this industry.
Ken

[Anonymous]

I strongly doubt that a RR would train you just to train you. But you may want to consider the American Academy of RR Sciences. BNSF uses them extensively and most of our tech training stuff comes out of there. It is at Johnson County Community Colledge in Overland Park, KS. I think that the 15 week + or - costs around $2000. Ahhh good ol choo choo u.

[cabforward]

thank you for your kind words.. i would not apply as i am deterred from aspects of the job such as long-haul runs 20/more per month; traveling up to 200 mi. to get to the place where i would fill-in for others, stay a week, return, sleep a few hours and pick up the phone again.. also, the 80lb. coupler knuckle is a no-no.. i could not handle this stress, so i know i'm not cut-out for this work.. i didn't know it was like this until i applied to univ. n. florida.. i wanted to believe that a new crewman would handle extra board work near his community (up to 50 mi?).. when a steady opening became available for his level of seniority, it would be offered him.. i had no idea extra board work meant going back & forth between long-haul and yard or local work..

no school, whether state or r.r.-operated would accept anyone who is not wanting a definite job.. i ordered an intro. book to r.rs., fun to read, but that is all i can find.. the instructor said 90% of class material is overheads.. this was the johnson cty. comm. college, overland park, ks.

unless there is something going on i dont know about, that is as far as i can go.. if some course elements were available on video, id be interested, esp. in field exercises: coordinating with crewmen; workng at ground level; working in the cab: controls & functions; paperwork: switch lists, bad orders, r-o-w updates, (speed restrictions, r-o-w maint.); loco status: fuel, oil, etc.; notes on recent performance; switching new customers/deleting old ones;

it would be great to watch a crew do this, as a narrator explained how it fits together.. i reckon this could run to maybe 6 vhs cassettes, depending on the time devoted to a procedure.. unfortuately, there's no way enough people would be interested enough to put down $10-$15 a tape..
people like me, modelers, r.r. retirees, etc. but that doesn't add up to a big enough audience to make it pay..

[cabforward]

thank you, i have material from johnson cty and the univ of n. florida.. these schools restrict applicants as do medical schools: they have to want you as much as you want them, and they don't consider those who are just along for the ride..

[cabforward]

thank you for correcting me, it's great to hear from somebody who knows enough to save my life if i screw-up..

[Anonymous]

So don't tell them what your intentions are! If BNSF is hiring though, you will probably get an interview (from JCCO). What do they care what you do with your certificate? As long as you pay your money, who cares?
Ken

[Anonymous]

No problem Cab. You have gotta respect (or fear) anybody that doesn't work in the industry that has an interest in the less interesting aspects of my job.
Ken

[cabforward]

maybe things have changed since '98.. what i was told via the univ. of n. florida, students who are expected to grad. are interviewed by r.r. recruiters.. when it is determined which road the student prefers, or if more than one r.r. prefers him, which will get him, he is expected to align himself with a single road and sign papers with that road.. i was told that when students grad. on friday, they are told to report for work mon. a.m.. this was in better times, now they might just go home and wait..

if a student does not attend recruiting sessions or declnes to align with a r.r. come grad., he can be blackballed for life with all r.rs. who take grads from that particular school.. so, unless that guy is happy with a terrific set of model trains, he will never get any closer to r.r.-ing than waiting for the gate to go up at a grade crossing..

of course, if a guy never intended to work for the r.r. anway, but just wanted to get the college credit (the value of the course is held to be a 2-year assoc. degree in indust. tech. at n. florida), of course, go for it..

myself, the duplicity of the undertaking and the accusatory questions from the school would ruin it for me.. it wouldn't be worth it.. for all i know they could charge me with lying on my application.. at a state institution, that could be a jail offense.. they probably wouldn't push for that, all they want is my confession in return for a fine, a no-time misdemeanor conviction, and a promise to tay the h*** out of florida..

all that just to find out how the whistle works? don't think so..

all this is conjecture.. i don't know if this is possible or not.. it's just the way my mind works..

[edblysard]

Oh well,
But you know something? I bet you know someone with a camera, and it sounds like you though it through fairly well, so why not contact the guys at green frog production, or keller videos?
Who knows, you may just have come up with a best selleing video! I would have paid for it, and would do so now.
Stay Frosty,
ED

[cabforward]

what does leaving the switch lined mean? leave it the way you found it, or leave it the way you used it? or maybe always leave it 'closed'?

[edblysard]

It means "leaving it lined" for the move you did. In other words, the way you used it.
"Lining back" or "to line behind" means to line it back to the position you found it. Certain switches have rules which govern how you may leave them. Main line switches must be lined back for main line movement. Switches leading into sidings, most often, have to be lined back, as do switches leading into industries, for the main current of traffic. All "round house" or "house" switches must be lined back for the main or running rail. A good rule of thumb is, if you are not going to be using the switch repeatedly, for your work, then line it back for the main current of traffic.
Stay Frosty
Ed