The EPA has done it now Hybrid locomotives?

[Anonymous]

Well it has been done in the auto industry so why not the rail industry. These new hybrid locomotive swill primarily be used to replace idling switcher locomotives in Texas. It really is a good idea. The locomotives have large battery packs and a small 250 HP gen set. The engine only comes on when the batts need charging. They are going to replace most of the switchers here in Texas with hybrids. Is this Good or Bad?
Here are the links.

http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/releases/environment/2005/1014_genset.shtml
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/RR/290.pdf
http://www.railpower.com/products_gg_howitworks.html

[jchnhtfd]

The Green Goats -- it is a good idea -- for switchers, and there has been quite a bit of discussion in various threads. Might take a look at it.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The Green Goat and Green Kid are updates of an old concept that dates back to the late 1920's on NYC, DL&W, RI and others. Railpower has been tweaking its designs based on experience with their demonstrator since 2001 so time will tell on how well they work out.
They have become almost a necessity in the Houston area due to an air quality improvement order from the EPA in 2000 with a compliance date of 2007. Houston has some of the filthiest air in the country (down there with the Los Angeles area) and as a result, industrial engine (rail, marine, construction, etc.) emissions also have to be reduced.

[daveklepper]

And GE is set to apply the same concept to road freight locomotives and is testing two units in service right now.

It would seem the stop and go commuter services, like the Rock Island METRA line, would be a natural.

[DSchmitt]

Hibrid technology may be a good way to reduce the use of oil, but I wonder if all the costs are being considered. In addition to the monatary costs there are environmental costs to the mining of materials for, manufacture of , and recycling/disposal of the batteries which are made from scarce and hazardous materials. Also the large quantity of batteries may increase the dangers and environmental dammage when there are accidents.

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt

Hibrid technology may be a good way to reduce the use of oil, but I wonder if all the costs are being considered. In addition to the monatary costs there are environmental costs to the mining of materials for, manufacture of , and recycling/disposal of the batteries which are made from scarce and hazardous materials. Also the large quantity of batteries may increase the dangers and environmental dammage when there are accidents.

Some areas, especially those with air quality problems, offer financial incentives (lower taxes, paying part of the cost, outright grants) to purchase these lower emission units. I'm sure this is factored into the total costs. Since switchers spend a lot of time idling, which consumes fuel and emits pollutants, this would seem to be a good place to start. I believe the batteries are the standard lead-acid type, the lead being recyclable, and normally, switchers aren't exposed to the type accidents that would cause a burst and spill of the sulfuric acid.

[edblysard]

Need to get your statement clairfied...
First, who is "they"?
Second, who ever "they" are, "they" are not replacing all the idleing locomotives in Texas, most of the locomotives have an auto start/shutoff feature already.

UP is taking adbvantage of a federal grant to purchase them, as part of the Texas Clean Air Act...
UP is testing them out in Settagast Yard and some parts of Englewood, and Freeport has two green goats for testing, both of thoses built here in Texas from kits provided by the Green Goat guys...

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by macaste

Well it has been done in the auto industry so why not the rail industry. These new hybrid locomotive swill primarily be used to replace idling switcher locomotives in Texas. It really is a good idea. The locomotives have large battery packs and a small 250 HP gen set. The engine only comes on when the batts need charging. They are going to replace most of the switchers here in Texas with hybrids. Is this Good or Bad?
Here are the links.

http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/releases/environment/2005/1014_genset.shtml
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/RR/290.pdf
http://www.railpower.com/products_gg_howitworks.html

[Gluefinger]

Someone mentioned Metra, but I'm not sure that would be a good idea. The engines on Metra locomotives are always in Notch 8 to keep the HEP running and the cars warm/lighted. The throttle controls how much of this power goes to the traction motors.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


UP is testing them out in Settagast Yard and some parts of Englewood, and Freeport has two green goats for testing, both of thoses built here in Texas from kits provided by the Green Goat guys...

Ed

You'd sure need a lot of airfix for one of these jobbies..
I hope the instructions are a little better than the 'insert tab A into Slot B etc.'
I also wonder if there's much scope to do a little kitbashing as well...

[edblysard]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing...
If you look at them, it becomes apparent that they borrowed the cab and short hood from Boise Locomotive, and the long hood is just a cut down MK1500D hood, running gear from EMD GPs...Frames from GPs and GE B units...pretty straight forward chop and weld job...inside the cab, the only difference between a standard locomotive control stand and this one is the addition of a battery charge gauge and a series of toggles to cut some of them out.

Still don’t think they will survive in flat yard switching work, unless those are some really stout built batteries.

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


UP is testing them out in Settagast Yard and some parts of Englewood, and Freeport has two green goats for testing, both of thoses built here in Texas from kits provided by the Green Goat guys...

Ed

You'd sure need a lot of airfix for one of these jobbies..
I hope the instructions are a little better than the 'insert tab A into Slot B etc.'
I also wonder if there's much scope to do a little kitbashing as well...

[UPTRAIN]

That sounds good, "helping the environment" and whatever...but GE's plan of a 6,000 hp hybrid...give me a break!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

There has been a lot of criticism of Railpower's Green Goat demonstrator when it was first released in 2001. I would assume that Railpower has listened to these criticisms and has beefed up its production designs to stand up better in everyday service. If the batteries are built to design standards similar to those in diesel-powered submarines, they will probably hold up in railroad service.

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt

Hibrid technology may be a good way to reduce the use of oil, but I wonder if all the costs are being considered. In addition to the monatary costs there are environmental costs to the mining of materials for, manufacture of , and recycling/disposal of the batteries which are made from scarce and hazardous materials. Also the large quantity of batteries may increase the dangers and environmental dammage when there are accidents.

There are some very good points here, and it is wonderful to see someone thinking about the life cycle costs, including all environmental effects of a technology. Very refreshing! In the case of the hybrid technology immediately in this topic, the batteries are, as pointed out elsewhere, lead-acid, and the recycling involving these is a pretty simple and well proven technology; the amount of new material involved is small. Spills of battery acid at the levels involved here, while they make good headlines, are not really a problem.

This is not true, however, of all the 'green' technologies! In particular, use of hydrogen as a fuel (either in internal combustion or fuel cell modes) is extremely problematic from the overall cycle cost point of view, unless the electricity source is nuclear, which is politically hopeless (although a very fine technology -- but let's not go there). Alcohol and other bio- derived fuels are similarly problematic, although not as bad as hydrogen.