GP 9 : The best diesel ever built?

[Murphy Siding]

In his book "Union Pacific Salt Lake Route", Mark W. Hemphill called the GP 9 a" run-till-it-drops diesel that could handle a redball one day, a local the next". Some of these locomotives are 50 years old, and still running. In our part of the country, a lot of old Geeps live behind a grain elevator, in semi-retirement. They are common on some short lines, and can probably still be found on some Class 1's. Are they best diesel ever built?

[Anonymous]

In my experience, yes.

My experience handling diesels doesn't extend much past the EMD 40-models, but I ran GP9s in switching, local freight, branch line, piggyback, time freight and passenger service. They'd do anything within their horsepower capabilities. It took a lot of them to get a big piggyback train up to 60MPH, but they'd get them up there and ride well all the while. They'd ride well at 75 MPH with passenger trains. You could kick and drop cars with them.

They were comparatively simple machines, with no turbochargers or fancy transition systems to get out of whack.

They were comfortable, and handy to run.

Some may argue that the comparable Alcos loaded up quicker and had better dynamic brakes, but the disadvantages of the Alcos outweighed those two marginal advantages. I ran the Alco RS3s and RS11s, too.

No contest. The GP9 was tops.

Old Timer

[nanaimo73]

It is the biggest selling diesel of all time. CP still has 200 on their roster, many of them operating in pairs in yard service. With all of the spare parts around, they can be rebuilt until the frame weakens.

[Anonymous]

The real General Purpose.

[ericsp]

I have never operated one, I do like them though. I grew up with Southern Pacific (and then San Joaquin Valley Railroad) GP9s powering the local trains. Coincidentally, I saw one today. Fortunately, SJVR still has two (1763 and 1764). Unfortunately, they sold off 1751, 1754, 1755, and (possibly) 1761 a couple of years ago. I suspect that 1751 and 1755 are now with Great Smokey Mountains Railroad. I hear that 1754 (the first SJVR locomotive I photographed) is now with San Pedro & Southwestern.

[Anonymous]

Quite possibly so. The were among the most versitle of all locos built. They could be seen pulling local passenger trains, short manifest frieghts, hot shot trains, yard work, and of course helper units. Yes, in my opinion, the EMD GP 9 was and still is the greatest loco of all time!

[PBenham]

To proclaim the GP9 as the best diesel ever built is not quite true.Strictly speaking,this is because the technology is constantly evolving. The GP9 could not be built today for many reasons. Its technology does not meet modern performance, safety,noise, emissions, or fuel economy standards. To say that the GP9 was the most significant locomotive of its time is a more accurate assessment of its place in history. Its impact on the railroads that bought them cannot be underestimated. PRR finished its dieselization with over 300 GP9s, Norfolk & Western sent some of the finest steam power ever built to the junkyard with GP9s. New York Central, Canadian National,Canadian Pacific,Illinois Central,Nickel Plate, Missouri Pacific, Union Pacific,and Southern Pacific all made significant purchases of GP9s and they even replaced FTs on Boston & Maine, Chicago & Northwestern, Lehigh Valley and Minneapolis & St. Louis, being most prominent in my opinion. The GP9s place in history is secure.

[TH&B]

I still say it's the best ever deisel.

GP9's are best because it was more versatile and easy to use in the widest range of train services. Light enough for branch lines, quick enough for switching moves, fast enough for fast passenger trains, good for commuter trains, multiplied easily for more power and long consists, negotiates sharper curves and bad track then those big 6 axles, reliable, good visabilty when the short hood was cut down, long life , many still in use, some rebuilt extensively, some very original. What other engine type can or might meet or exeed all of this? Sure modern tech engines can exeed in limited types of train service of today but how will they stand up over 50 years? But to me an AC4400W or what ever they call them doesn't look like it could also handle fast passenger trains and they are terrible for switching already.

A GP9 was a product of its time but was usefull in all the times since. Todays engines are not even good for all of todays trains.

I still see alot of them in regular service on class ones and short lines. Although mostly in switching and roadswitchers, I still see them in fast freight and heavy freight.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

The real General Purpose.

CORRECT!!!!!!!![;)]

[Anonymous]

HELL YEAH, GEEPS ROCK!

[eolafan]

The GP9 (and similar units) are great because their designers and builders adhered to the K.I.S.S. rule (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

[MP173]

I was fortunate enough the past couple of weeks to find several in operation on the south side of Chicago, at Chicago Rail Link and also two at KSBX, a coal transfer operation. The KSBX units were still high nosed and looked great.

Somehow a chopped nose GP9/7 is a bit disappointing.

ed

[jockellis]

G'day, Y'all,
Thirty years ago, a Seaboard Coastline official told me the GP-7 was the best locomotive they ever had. Of course it is basically the same locomotive as the GP-9. At the Waycross SCL shops, I saw a GP-7 at the end of its service life having its nose chopped after being sold to a sugar company where it was to be used in switching. Some of the shop workers in Waycross actually took a GP-7 body and put it on a trailer or something and drove it in parades.
In 1979, the Southern Railway supplied an Athearn trainset for the Georgia Press Association's annual Operation Lifesaver contest. I won it and got back into HO. It was a pair of custom-painted GP-9s (one a dummy) and all Southern boxcars, timber cars, flat car and a beautiful, shiny red SR caboose. So, of course, the Geeps are my favorites. Of course, I have an American Flyer No. 370 GP-7 which I got for Christmas when I was 5.
SCL used to run GP-7s on freights from Waycross to Brunswick or Amelia Island, FL. Whoever assigned them liked to put two on the head end of over 100 cars for the slightly downhill run. They would be on their hands and knees dragging those heavy loads.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA US of A

[Anonymous]

i still think the best diesel ever built was the sd40-2
i see them in locals all the time, merchadise, and the hot z trains

[espeefoamer]

My first cab ride was on a GP9. I have ridden on a number of SP commute trains behind GP9s. I rode behind a GP9 and an SDP45 on the Coast Starlight in 1972.In the early 90,s I rode on a San Diegan behind a GP9 when the F40 broke down. Yes, I think the GP9 might be the best loco ever built.[:)]

[ironhorseman]

Here are the stats on the GP9:

According to The Encyclopedia of Trains & Locomotives by CJ Riley, 2000:

GP9 | 1750hp | 16Cyl | Produced 1/54-12/59 | USA - 3436; Can 646; Mex 10

GP38-2 | 2000hp | 16Cyl | 1/72-12/87 | USA 1801; Can 254; Mex 133

SD40-2 | 3000hp |16Cyl | 1/72-2/86 | USA 3131; Can 719; Mex 107

These are the top 3 selling locos by GM-EMD. I thought the latter 2 were the better locos from what I've read before, but according to personal testimony above and rereading the books and reading more I find I must've missed something.

To quote the book "They pulled everyting in sight - way freights, branch line passenger, transfer drags, main line pass., commuter, main line frieght - whatever was needed." It also describes the advantage of the GP9s body over an F7 in that the engineer could look both ways with better visibility therefore making switching easier.

According to The Encyclopedia of Trains and Locomotives by David Ross, gen. ed., 2003: the GP9 is described as "...a ubiquitous symbol of modern American railroading..."

The locomotives that followed may have been improved and refined to fit specific duties, but the GP9 most certainly can be also labeled as the best pioneer locomotive. The F-units were novel, the 'geeps' were noble and a step in the right direction.

I'm of a generation that only knows of GP9s relegated to the end of their shortline service. Not long ago a shortline in my area had recieved about 6+ ex-BN C30-7 units. Are the GP38-(2)s on their way out, too?

And a word on ALCOs: the point has been made that some are still going strong, like the RS-2 and RS-3 on some shortlines and tourist lines around the country. They've lasted, the other models of theirs haven't. Just an observation.

BTW, what year is Mr. Hemphill's book published?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironhorseman



BTW, what year is Mr. Hemphill's book published?

1995. I'm almost done with the book, and intend to write an amateur review on the book nuts thread.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 06archerd

i still think the best diesel ever built was the sd40-2
i see them in locals all the time, merchadise, and the hot z trains

The first GP 7/9's were built in 1949, The first SD 40's were built in 1966. Do you there will be plenty of SD 40's around in another 17 years?

[Anonymous]

06archerd -

Could an SD40 do everything a GP9 could do? No. Mainly because there were - and are - places a GP9 can go that an SD40 can't.

But you could put enough GP9s together to do anything a consist of SD40s could do, in places where SD40s can't go.

Old Timer

[oltmannd]

Battery field excitation. 567-C engine. A bullet-proof arrangement if ever there was one. Dirt simple and cheap to own and operate. All you need is hand tools and a test light to keep one going.

If they had one weakness, it's the underframe of varying section. It is somewhat prone to buckling and many don't have allignement control couplers.

Of course, compared to a modern locomotive, they are fuel pigs and you'd have to own a zillion of them compated to the number of SD70s. But, if I was a shortline - they'd be high on my list - right behind the GP38-2.

[jchnhtfd]

I'll buy it. As has been said, of all the diesels around, it probably best exemplified the KISS principle, and was built to run and be repaired as needed. And as Don notes, a good set of hand tools and a test light is all you need...

In cars, I'd compare it to my 1970 Chevy C10 pickup. You can't kill it...

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

I have never operated one, I do like them though. I grew up with Southern Pacific (and then San Joaquin Valley Railroad) GP9s powering the local trains. Coincidentally, I saw one today. Fortunately, SJVR still has two (1763 and 1764). Unfortunately, they sold off 1751, 1754, 1755, and (possibly) 1761 a couple of years ago. I suspect that 1751 and 1755 are now with Great Smokey Mountains Railroad. I hear that 1754 (the first SJVR locomotive I photographed) is now with San Pedro & Southwestern.

Hey Eric,
The Lake County Railroad just aquired former SJVR 1761 from Western Rails Inc of Spokane, WA and it is currently in service on the LCRR.

[vsmith]

Well yeeeeeeeeeeees, I guess you could make a pretty good aurgument in favor of the Geeps but....

Lets not forget the venerable SW series, lots of them lasted a very very long time also doing work every day of their lives, just not as glamourously as Miss Highnose.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

I have never operated one, I do like them though. I grew up with Southern Pacific (and then San Joaquin Valley Railroad) GP9s powering the local trains. Coincidentally, I saw one today. Fortunately, SJVR still has two (1763 and 1764). Unfortunately, they sold off 1751, 1754, 1755, and (possibly) 1761 a couple of years ago. I suspect that 1751 and 1755 are now with Great Smokey Mountains Railroad. I hear that 1754 (the first SJVR locomotive I photographed) is now with San Pedro & Southwestern.

Hey Eric,
The Lake County Railroad just aquired former SJVR 1761 from Western Rails Inc of Spokane, WA and it is currently in service on the LCRR.

Thanks for the information. It looks like I will have to go up there some time.

I see they rebuilt and sold SJVR 1755 also. They probably also got SJVR 1751
http://www.westernrailinc.com/rebuild.htm


I also found a page that has SJVR 1761 on it..
http://www.westernrailinc.com/loci3.htm#gp9W

I wonder if all three of those GP9s headed north on the same train. If so I would have liked to have seen it.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Well yeeeeeeeeeeees, I guess you could make a pretty good aurgument in favor of the Geeps but....

Lets not forget the venerable SW series, lots of them lasted a very very long time also doing work every day of their lives, just not as glamourously as Miss Highnose.

[:D] The elevators around here that don't have a GP 9 usually have an SW. Seems both are pretty much made out of the same parts?

[DPD1]

I guess it depends on who you ask... A lot of guys I've talked to that have been around a while, really liked the SD9... and actually still prefer it over some of the modern power today. I've often heard old heads say they don't like any of the geeps, because the ride is rougher.

Dave
-DPD Productions - Featuring the TrainTenna LP Gain RR Scanner Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/dpdp/

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 440cuin

I still say it's the best ever deisel.

GP9's are best because it was more versatile and easy to use in the widest range of train services. Light enough for branch lines, quick enough for switching moves, fast enough for fast passenger trains, good for commuter trains, multiplied easily for more power and long consists, negotiates sharper curves and bad track then those big 6 axles, reliable, good visabilty when the short hood was cut down, long life , many still in use, some rebuilt extensively, some very original. What other engine type can or might meet or exeed all of this? Sure modern tech engines can exeed in limited types of train service of today but how will they stand up over 50 years? But to me an AC4400W or what ever they call them doesn't look like it could also handle fast passenger trains and they are terrible for switching already.

A GP9 was a product of its time but was usefull in all the times since. Todays engines are not even good for all of todays trains.

I still see alot of them in regular service on class ones and short lines. Although mostly in switching and roadswitchers, I still see them in fast freight and heavy freight.

I do have to agree with you on the GP9's diversified applications. Overall, I support you concept that the GP9 is an excellent locomotive. I do have to say that it was an excellent locomotive of it's time, it was considered to be advanced locomotive technology, all in one package. The GP9 is also a good locomotive to have for inter city passenger service, shortline applications, and switching movements. However, it isn't too good in terms of todays high speed intermodel, slow haul heavy freight, mixed freight, or any other form of present time mainline traffic.

In todays terms, it is considered outdated. Yes it is true that some of the modern Big Power locomotives are not able to be used as widely as the GP 9 was in terms of high speed passenger service or passenger service in general, this is because of it's low gear rato, which is designed to get more torque, for pulling power rather than useding a high gear ratio in which the locomotive would get more speed. Also, the todays demads of hightened (spelling) freight traffic requires the the extra pulling power, at a relitivly low cost to that compared with useing a GP9 or five to match the horsepower of one modern locmotive. I'm going to also point out that many modern locomotives are euiped with steerable radial trucks vs. the ridged (spelling) design of the GP9. For example EMD's HTCR II truck allows the axles on the truck to align exactly to the curviture of the track, there is also a rail flang luber which prevents excessive wear on the rail and wheels of the axles, it also saves on fuel consumption. Unfortunitlly, (spelling) the GP9's trucks are not designed in this mannor and do tend to cause a high angle of attack on both the wheels and rail.

[oltmannd]

Sarah-

Your points are right on. If they weren't, the RRs would just be rebuilding GP9s instead of purchasing new!

A couple of points of clarification, though. The HTCR produces track forces very similar to a GP and high degree of curvature track. It's really not an improvement. It is a BIG improvement over the HTC and Flexicoil trucks, however.

An onboard flange lube system is something that can be added to any locomtive. They do save fuel, but are a huge pain to maintain - and since the "cost" occurs to the mechanical dept and failure does not stop a locomotive from pulling a train - but the benefit accrues to the transportation dept (fuel is in their budget), flange lube systems are often inoperative.

I have no idea how the HTCR would do at high speed (>80 mph). But at those speeds, the extra TE from a 6 axle is usually not needed and four axles rule the roost.

[GP40-2]

CSX rules4eva said:

"Yes it is true that some of the modern Big Power locomotives are not able to be used as widely as the GP 9 was in terms of high speed passenger service or passenger service in general, this is because of it's low gear rato, which is designed to get more torque, for pulling power rather than useding a high gear ratio in which the locomotive would get more speed. "

The low gear ratio comment is not true. All of CSX's big ACs can cruise at 75 MPH, which is higher than the freight gearing EMD supplied with the orginal GP9.

[trainboyH16-44]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

I have never operated one, I do like them though. I grew up with Southern Pacific (and then San Joaquin Valley Railroad) GP9s powering the local trains. Coincidentally, I saw one today. Fortunately, SJVR still has two (1763 and 1764). Unfortunately, they sold off 1751, 1754, 1755, and (possibly) 1761 a couple of years ago. I suspect that 1751 and 1755 are now with Great Smokey Mountains Railroad. I hear that 1754 (the first SJVR locomotive I photographed) is now with San Pedro & Southwestern.

Hey Eric,
The Lake County Railroad just aquired former SJVR 1761 from Western Rails Inc of Spokane, WA and it is currently in service on the LCRR.

Thanks for the information. It looks like I will have to go up there some time.

I see they rebuilt and sold SJVR 1755 also. They probably also got SJVR 1751
http://www.westernrailinc.com/rebuild.htm


I also found a page that has SJVR 1761 on it..
http://www.westernrailinc.com/loci3.htm#gp9W

I wonder if all three of those GP9s headed north on the same train. If so I would have liked to have seen it.

What? They stole my paint scheme!

The GP9 is the best all purpose diesel in my books! The only one I like better is the SD40-2. The H16-44 you may ask? It cetainly is one of my favorites, but it was not popular for good reasons. I am not a sellout!
Matthew