Reprimand The A.A.R.

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen, and Ladies,
Any discussion as to whether railfanning is un-American completely misses a couple of very important points.

This whole thing did not start with 9/11, or the government. It started months later when at the behest of the Homeland Security Dept., the Association Of American Railroads designed a "Terrorist Profile" that "just so happened" to describe railfans. They knew better then and they know better now! But the railroad companies have hated "Railfans" for years

They know that taking pictures, or just loitering around to watch a train is normal everyday behavior for millions around the world. It is even more common in England than here. There are even popular folksongs about it, even nursery songs. Mothers sing to their sons about it from infancy!

The A.A.R. has described an everyday activity as unusual and suspiscious, which is an obvious absurdity - at least to anyone involved on a day to day basis. This is the reason railroad employees are now required to report every camera or parked car. It was not the government's doing - as stupid as they usually are, they were duped by a self-centered industry.

The point is that now scarce and valuable police and security forces are being diverted from the hunt for real terrorists. They instead now go on wild goose chases. The A.A.R.'s dastardly and spiteful act against railfans may actually give terrorists more cover than they would have had. This false and salacious profile is in fact a bigger threat to national security than any railfan will ever be. It must be corrected and the A.A.R. must be reprimanded - sternly!

None of this is to say that we should not be willing to make sacrifices for the common good of all, but we should never sacrifice basic liberties, or waste our sacrifices on pointless dirty tricks perpetrated by spiteful industrial organizations.

What America has always been about - is liberty. The legally protected right to do as you please, so long as you respect the rights of others. I spent two years in combat to defend liberty, and will again - if I have to.

President Bush explicitly told America after 9/11 to continue on with our activities as usual - do not alter them - do not let the terrorists win! As instructed by the President, I intend to continue doing just that! The A.A.R. be damned!

We all must write Congress and the President to warn them of this serious "Error" - The A.A.R. must be seriously REPRIMANDED. They have in fact dishonored the President's council to the nation, have created a grave new security threat, and have abridged the rights of millions while doing it.

Isn't that what the 9/11 terrorists were trying to do all along? So who is the real enemy here!

RmC.

[Anonymous]

While I dont attach ill motives to the AAR's actions as you seem to, it is the type of heavy handed thing that the companies are known for. I wonder if they ever think before they do some of the things that they do.

[louisnash]

All I have to say is AMEN.
And since we also have people telling us the pledge is unfair and our currency should be changed I must also say "In God We Trust"

There was a saying I also learned in school about our freedom. "Give me Liberty or give me death"
Brian (North KY) Proud Free American

[wabash1]

The act of railroads reporting railfans is not new it did not start on 9/11 and it did not start a few months after 9/11 or when this homeland act started. I have been reporting railfans for years it is a major rule violation if we dont. Also i do report only the ones who for what ever reason think they dont haft to pay attention to laws. the ones who trespass, steal, (I had a cop come in for trespassers getting in the way and while he was approaching them they stole some stuff and got arrested for both crimes. his buddy got away but he went to jail). the just of it is that the heat has been turned up do to the 9/11 incident and if you think you can do as you want then you will probley be arested also. so do as you want do not say that we did not tell you so.

[Anonymous]

Yes the reporting of trespassers has always been done, by all property owners. So what! I have been watching trains for thirty years. Never have I been reported for watching from public until now. Never have I had film confiscated by railroad police before. No police have ever harrassed me before. I have not even been questioned before.

The goverment's request of the A.A.R. to provide a profile of someone intent on doing harm to the railway was well reported in the trade press, as was the A.A.R. response. None of this extremist harrass occurred before then.

WAKE UP!

[Anonymous]

Yes, the AAR did give the Homeland Security Dept. a profile, but what would you have given them then? I'm not saying that the AAR didn't know what they were doing, I'm just saying that they didn't have a choice. I think local law enforcement or the railroads should keep a list of 'railfans' to keep in contact with and use to their benefit to report suspicious activities. I know some locations don't like railfans, mostly large cities, but here on the UP in Sheboygan, WI. on the Shoreline Sub, I am known on a first-name basis with quite a few employees. The only ones who don't like me are a few of the grumpy new guys who don't like 'young kids'. I think that they could really use us to their advantage, though. Too bad they don't see it that way...

[Anonymous]

What do you mean, WAKE UP? Try having a bunch of kids fouling the track, doing who knows what at 12:00am as your train speeds toward them. That'll wake you up. And as a conductor, we're the ones that have to go out and look at the mess if one of these people get hit. I wouldn't say that the RRs hate foamers. The RRs hate theft and vandalism. Maybe you should come down on the a**hole vandals. They are the ones that ruined it for you railfans along with the fans that are unsafe and irresponsible, and sue the RR for getting themselves hurt. Unfortunately, a few ruin it for all........
Ken

[wabash1]

Ok here is your wake up. It is a rule violation to not report foamers with cameras its not new its that we choose not to do it. But as with a differant post on this site the big fight was if i wasnt braking rules i would not care if i had my picture taken. I also exsplained how even smoking or getting down from the engine is wrong. and so is letting people get away with taking pictures. How am i to know if your not a company official out taking pictures to see if i wont report you. So to make this short and sweet for you, since you are so bent to make it your duty to take pictures then i will make it my duty to report you and everyone else who stands by and or is taking picktures of my train as it is going by. See it is people such as you that make it hard on the others. So wake up, The law is the law and rules are rules and I choose to keep my job and go by the rules.

THAT IS THE WAKE UP. Oh and smell the coffee while you are at it. You wont win.

[Anonymous]

I've worked in engine service for almost 20 years and have never seen a rule that says you must report foamers taking photos, tresspassers yes, railfans on public property no. One of the problems that railfans face now is railroaders who will report them for doing something they are not just to break stones, this is uncalled for but I do work with people who will do just that. As for the guy who said he had his film comfiscated by RR police,if you were on public property just minding you own business photographing trains I would think you would have grounds for a lawsuit, war or no war.

[BRAKIE]

J,I been out railfanning 5 times this year.Most crews still wave,I talk to a roadmaster,talked to a signal maintainer none was as rude as you are.Nor was I reported by crews on a passing train.I was NOT bother by the Police,CIA,FBI or the railroad bulls.On what railroad was I railfaning? The NORFORK SOUTHERN..I had one crew to throw out 2 bottles of water and a employees time table.The kindly engineer yell down,"Have a nice day!" I yelled back "Have a safe trip".Yes j,most of your fellow workers are nice guys.I am yet to meet one as rude as you are.You give a black eye to your follow railroaders-if you truely work on the railroad.

[MikeSanta]

I thought the AAR thing was "tounge in cheek" in order to let the police know that there IS a legitimate hobby such as railfanning. I wondered about the railroad employees having to report everyone with a camera or waving at a train. It seems that after the first 50 times one did that and the cops came out and the person wasn't there any more because they left after the train left, common sense would tell them to stop crying wolf. Plus the first time a railroad cop tried to stop someone who was NOT on railroad property and got hauled into court on official oppression charges or got whipped in a fistfight and the railfan got acquitted on grounds of self defense, I'm sure they'd figure that thatis NOT a way to go. I'm not talking about someone in a freight yard: some of THOSE "railfans" are only interested in what's inside a boxcar. They're the ones who give us real railfans a bad name.

[Anonymous]

What a bunch of crap. Maybe you hadn't noticed, but railfans are just about the only "fans" that your employer has. Ask just about anyone about rail "service" and the subject will be quickly changed to something else. Most "good, loyal" RR employees can do nothing but complain bitterly about how hard they've got it and what a crummy outfit this is to work for. In case you hadn't noticed, most railfans are middle-aged, white, and probably relatively well off. Maybe people like you and the AAR consider this to be a good description of a typical middle-eastern terrorist, but the idea is absurd beyond belief. Protect rail infrastructure? Of course, but why harass the very people who are the most likely to call the cops if we do see something out of the ordinary. I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee; the guy taking your picture (while you're probably giving the camera the "bird") just might be the guy who is going to pick up the phone Sunday afternoon to save your sorry butt and call the dispatcher and report a problem with your train, or a crossing signal that isn't working, or some idiot shooting a gun at trackside signals for target practice. By all means arrest the trespassers, but leave the people alone who are watching from a public (public--get it?) vantage point. And people thought that the Politically Correct-crowd was responsible for the death of common sense. We ain't seen nothin' yet.

[wabash1]

First off for njtengineer I see you dont know me as i dont flip the bird to the camera this is also grounds to be fired if shown to the officials. It is my right not to have my picture taken if I so choose. And the only foamers i report are the ones that cant seem to stay off the property. And since they are trespassing it is my resposibility to report them.

Now for brakie I have no idea what a roadmaster is other than a car. And as far as them giving you a timestable that was a rule violation also. I use to throw water bottles down to the kids by the tracks that would ask for them until i saw their parents sending the kids out to the trains to get them i am talking not even 5 year old running up to the head of the ties standing and waiting.So that was the end of that. As far as being rude call it what you want but when i turn the tables on you its painfully clear that it offended you. Now wake up and look at things from our vantage point. Dont ask me to break rules and make exceptions for some and not others. I dont report any foamers even the ones that trespass. I have talk to railroad cops (on are railroad call special agents) they know the trouble makers and deal with them accordingly. But dont ask me to Look the other way when i have manditory directives that say otherwise. Your hobby of taking pictures of trains is hard for some to take but my hobby of hunting and target shooting is hard for others to take. to the point that they are trying to outlaw my guns. (but guns aint this forum). To make it simple for you i dont say anything til you couse a problem. If i am set up i always am looking like i am busy with the engine controls its up to them to prove me wrong.

BCRN626 I dont complain about who i work for or how bad it is. just the opposite. its what i wanted to do and If i didnt like it i would move on. The work is hard sometimes the hours are not typical but i like beeing on the go anyways. The company dont care if they have fans or not, its like trucking they dont care about fans just making money. And when i get off duty i dont talk shop for sometime. if ask i will talk about it but i dont make it a point to bring it up. As far as saving my butt i doubt it as we always pass trains in sidings and detectors which will catch most anything wrong. as far as crossing signals unless they dont activate i could care less, if they are false activation at least they are working.

Am i rude when i want to be. but if you have followed me on this forum i play devils advocate when i can to let you get the big picture. it dont matter to me if you think i am not a railroader i know where my check comes from.

have a good day.

[Anonymous]

Some of you have still missed my point. This is not about railfan vs railroad! I am aware that some so-called railfans (foamers) are really thieves, and they should be arrested. So should anyone messing with someone elses property.

However, neither a trainman's bashfulness or the industry's concern about liability have anything to do with national security. These are not national security issues and the heavy hand of martial law should not be used to solve them.

My point was that the bogus and erroneous terrorist profile put out by the A.A.R. is wasting the precious time of our security forces and police.

But apparently not for long! Where I live, the harrassment IS easing. Even a U.P. railroad cop patrolling on foot along a county park boundary the other day ignored my presence at the boundary until I asked him what was up.

It seems that the police in my area are beginning to get wise to the phony profile and are placing railroad reports on a lower priority, unless the railroad has someone in custody. He was out there looking for someone with a camera. It may have been me, as I had one in plain view - but since I was obviously no threat, he conversed openly about all this "Waste of time", and then walked on.

Now this perceived lack of credibility in a call to the police can't be good for national security. You cannot cry wolf for long, and not eventually get eaten by the wolf.

Why not come out with a real profile, one that truly points to real security threats - filtering out everyday activities which (though perhaps annoying) have nothing to do with security. If that is not possible - then true security demands that we accept the fact and replace profiling with common sence and increased vigilance by all.

The locals should know what is ordinary in their areas, even if someone in a centralized office cannot know.

Let's put all Americans to work watching out for each other - railfan and railroad alike - at the grass roots. Railfans could be a great asset in this cause, not unlike the Civil Air Patrol during WW2. Register them, with background checks, if you like; but let's get on with it.

A.A.R. - are you listening?

RmC

[corwinda]

There's a lot of track between detectors.

You should care about false activation of crossing signals. A signal that stays on when no train is near can FORCE people to drive around the gates. (And don't say 'just go to the next crossing;' sometimes there isn't one.)

[wabash1]

False activation or not that dont stop the public from going around the gates. I can tell you this in the 30-40 mph area 8 out of 10 crossing the people will race you across and if they dont beat ya at one crossing they will race you down the street that runs next to the crossing and get ya at the next. in the 50 -60 mph area 4 out of 10 crossing people will race the train at the crossing.

I know what you are saying and i had the same idea back in the 70s but the truth of the matter is the railroads dont want you there. If they give you the right to do what you are saying then they are responsible for you and your injuries. This is what they want to do away with, the best thing to do when railfanning is be on public property. and snap away. but remeber one thing the crew may not want their picture taken so be considerate.

[Anonymous]

I think the AAR has done a great disservice to the railfan community by developing this ridiculous profile for the FBI and police. As the operator of a RailFan Club, the organization surely knows the nature and extent of the hobby. Who should police resources be devoted to investigation of photographers NOT on RR property? After checking out a few of these "false alarms" the local police will tend to ignore these reports and may miss out on catching a real criminal or terrorist.

In short, the AAR's profile is a serious overreach. They should revise it to conform to some common sense and seek to enlist the eyes and ears of the railfan community in remaining alert for terrorism.

WEZ in South Florida