UP Hybrid

[Mookie]

found this in the paper: UP testing Green Goat in Melrose Park, IL. (strictly yard goat)

Specs: battery-powered, top speed 20 mph, runs on batteries that are charged by 130 hp diesel. Will save fuel since it will shut off instead of idling all the time.

BNSF experimenting with different system - it keeps the big diesel engine, but has a system that allows the engine to be shut off at times it normally idles.

I will save the article if any questions.

Sounds good to me - anyone want to elaborate or pick this one apart for me?

Jen

[Anonymous]

An interesting concept, though I've read that there have been considerable teething problems with it.
Try the manufacturer's website for more info:
www.railpower.com

[edblysard]

Hi Jenny,
If you read Trains, they did a really good article on the green goat a year ago. The were having problems with the battries, what type, and what to do with them when they were exhausted. You cant just throw them in the trash, kinda cancels out the "save the whales" "hug a tree" concept.
BNSF is installing whats called APUs, Auxiliary
Power Units, which will keep the oil warm, and heat the engine, plus run the air compressor and keep the starting battries charged when the diesel is turned off for extended periods of time. The major wear and tear on diesels occurs when they are started cold. Low oil pressure allows wear on the piston rings and engine bearings. When you first start any engine, your car included, it runs "dry", without oil, for a few seconds, untill the oil pump comes up to speed and sends new oil to all the moving parts. On a car, due to the releatively small amount of oil and the short distance it has to travel, it really poses no problem, your up to pressure in seconds. But on a 20 cylinder diesel, it can take a long time for the oil pressure to come up to specs, and a lot of unneeded wear occurs. Thats one of the reasons its easier on a diesel to leave it running.
Not real sure if the green goat will really be a contender, switch motors really take a beating.
Stay Frosty,
Ed, in sunny 70 degree Texas.

[Mookie]

Ed: Got you beat this time - it was 85 and 81 over weekend!

[edblysard]

Yeah, a cold front blew in this weekend, it got all the way down to 50.
Brrrr...
Ed

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

It's interesting to note that the Green Goat is a repackaging of some old technology. The tri-powers and dual-powers of the 1930's were similar, using a small diesel engine, third rail or overhead catenary to keep the batteries charged with the traction motors drawing current from the batteries. The update seems to be in battery technology.

[Mookie]

according to the article - the UP hasn't purchased any new switch engines for years. They use the old road engines. But they are really too big for yard work and the EPA will tighten standards on emissions in 2005. So they are looking to the Green Goat to replace the big, old yard engines and meet EPA guidelines. The new road engines are ok.

[Anonymous]

Last I heard was that UP had sent the Green Goat bak and has given up on it., I forget where i read that though. I dout that it would last very long in demading yard service.

[Mookie]

I would be interested in why you think it wouldn't last long in yard service. Batteries won't hold up?

[Anonymous]

I read on the website Snakebites.org I believe that UP was having all kinds of problems with it. This website is written by union trainmen and I do not recommend minors viewing it as it has course langauge. It said that they paradeed the engine for the media saying it was a success. Then they pulled the huld back to the engine house. In my experience switcher type locomotives are to underpowered for the modern class yard. They are fine for switching cuts not very fast. The yard I worked at we kicked cars and you need a good engine that loads fast and stops quick. Believe me switching with a GP-60 is a blast. most of the time we used 38's,40's and 50's. Once and a great while we would get a 1500 and the crews hated them. We even had one go kaputt in the middle of the shift. If you want to see some good switching don't go to a hump yard go to a "bowl" or flat yard. With a good crew I could switch a lot of cars in a shift. That's my opinion, What do you other guys and gals that worked the yards think?

[edblysard]

Hi Mike,
Your opinion is great.
Flat switching, its the way to go. I work for the PTRA in Houston, we use MK1500ds, MU'ed, so thats 3000 hp with eight axles. I drag out a 100 car receiving yard track, come around, shove 40 in a hold track, and away we go. With a good helper, and a good engineer, I can do two of these receiving tracks, two or three yard tracks, and then swing, couple, and spot for air three to four outbounds per shift. We have three yard crews per shift, so we move a lot of cars.
I cant imagine a more boreing job than being a pin puller at a hump yard.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[CShaveRR]

Our pin-pulling jobs aren't quite as boring as you might expect. The pin-puller works with the same engine the entire time, so he has to bring it back to the receiving yard, line up the shove, then ride it to the top of the hump and pull the pins...then go down into the bowl, kick this, shove that, maybe couple and pull these rehumps, then go back for more.

I used to find pin-pulling more frustrating than boring...seeing all of those interesting freight cars and not being able to take notes!

[edblysard]

Didnt know you had to do all that, at UP's Englewood hump, you see the same guy, all eight hours. He lookes like he would rather be anywhere else but there, sorta a burned out, numb look on his face. But, I havent done his job, we flat switch at the port, so who knows.
Not real sure I would feel that comfortable at the bottom of a hump, when we switch, we keep track of each other, I know where the other job at the opposite end of the yard is all the time, and he knows where I am. But, I guess you guys do the same, so in the middle of a flat yard, or the bowl of a hump yard wouldnt be that much different.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

Ok, so the Green Goat won't work - altho I am stil uncertain as to why - the concept sounds reasonable to me.

What about the BNSF - "it keeps the big diesel engine, but cuts fuel use and emmissions by adding a system that allows the engine to be shut off at times it normally idles." (it says that idling locomotive engines burn 3.5 gal of fuel per hour and 8-9 in cold weather.) "BNSF have small diesel engines that keep the big engines warm when they are shut off." (probably the same principal as plug in your diesel car)

That too, sounds feasible, but I really like the battery idea better.

The whole article is based on saving fuel, which no one will argue with, but since a very smart person built the locomotive, why can't some other smart person make it run more efficiently.

[Anonymous]

Now this type is a smart idea. They have using watchmen heaters for years that keep the engine warm. These I guess would be called a smart start system using a small engine to keep the coolant and oil warm. The watchmen heaters are kind of like the blockheaters put on diesel truck. On really cold days it is hard to strat a diesel but if you keep the block warm it starts easier. On locomotives they use water for coolant, on the new engines like the 90 they use antifreeze. The ones with water, if you shut down the engine the water will freeze and cause major damage. I have seen a radiator core that forze and it wasn't pretty. As it turns out the main engine stopped during the night maybe due to a vandal and the water froze. On the side of engines there is a emergency fuel shut off and they think the vandal saw that. From them on all unattended locomotives had to drain the water and shut down properly on this local job. CSX has installed some of the small diesels and I thinks NS is trying out their system. Some of the NS engines have a plaque that tells they have experimental equipment aboard. As to the Battery Green Goat, railroads and railroad people are not used to change, but that doesn't mean we don't. The engine is a good idea it just needs to used to find it limitations and design a better system. But when you got engines that last so long you don't have to run out and buy more, except maybe UP they are impulse buyers, only my girlfriend buys more stuff:)

[Mookie]

Evidently the railroads are looking for some fuel economy - with the economy going south and war pending. So maybe they will keep at this project until they find something both sides can work with.

But thanx for the info. Will put that in my book of knowledge I am getting from all the forum people.

and I won't tell your girlfriend what you said...

[edblysard]

Hi Jenny,
One of the reasons the green goat may not work is the tremendous beating switch motors take. When 200 thousand pounds runs into something, like a cut of railcars, even when its only 2 to 4 mph, it beats things up. Average life for a switch motor is 10 years, before major rebuilds and repair is needed.
Of coures, rebuilding is cheaper than buying new, so you still see SW9's everywhere, and the parts are readily available and cheap. And they have made diesels more efficent, a SD90 or 70Mac does the work of two SD40,s on less fuel. Like any business, railroads aim to cut cost and increase profits. Trying to save on fuel is nothing new, UP had huge turbine engines that ran on cheap heating oil, instead of diesel. When the cost of that fuel went up, the turbines went away. But at some point, you reach the end of being able to redesign any engine, it reaches the end of the technology curve. You can only tweak it so much, before you run out of options. I think we have reached that point, just like steam was replaced by diesels and DC traction motors are being replaced by AC, somewhere out there is a "better" way to move cars. When the cost of diesels locomotives becomes too expensive, the railroads will look elsewhere for motive power.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

I am trying not to sound like a dumb brunette here, but - (this would be easier if we could have a group sessions by phone!) if they built a green goat with a sturdy body style (like the old switchers I still see (SW10) and powered them with the battery system/small diesel system like they did this green goat, wouldn't that work? Unless like you said, they wouldn't have parts for them to repair them. But don't they build these engines and parts for them, like a new car?
This is overly simplistic, but then I type for a living. I don't run railroads. Darn...

[edblysard]

Not a dumb question at all, but I am going to make you think for a minute. Why is the battery in your automobile in a tray, held down snugly?
Because if it was allowed to ride "free" the plates inside would take such a beating, they would come apart. So any battery in a locomotive is really heavy duty, and placed where they take the least beating.
Now for the thinking part.
Lets say your are EMD. You have made locomotives for 75 years, and have cornered the market along with GE. Everyone has at least one of your locomotives. You sell thousands of replacement parts daily, and your production plants are geared up to make a newer, bigger version of your biggest locomotive. Now, one of your best customers, UP, is playing around with a locomotive you didnt develope or build. What would you do?
By the way, your market has dwindled down to four or five big customers, and you just purchased a company called Boise Locomotive, who makes, under contract by you, a switcher called a GP15, (read MK1500 D)
The guys developing the "new" switcher called the green goat want to buy air brake parts, control stands and other hardward from you, to compete with you in the switcher market place.
And you have been wineing and dineing the UP locomotive buyer for years, you play golf together all the time, your kids go to school together, and you both make a little side money with you business dealings.
Starting to get a little clearer?
Oh, and you counterpart at GE is in the same boat as you.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

Ah - the American Way - The Good Old Boys Network or Private Enterprise... I got it!

I didn't realize EMD or GE wasn't making the initial product. The fog has lifted - now I got it. Just needed a good teacher to get me in the right direction....

Thanx

J

[edblysard]

Which might explain why MK Rail Products, which made a good switch motor, became Bosie Locomotive, which in turn became a subsidiary of EMD. If you cant beat em, buy em.
Stay Frosty,
Ed