Railfan & trespasser warning

[edblysard]

Hi everybody,
Before you all get in a uproar, I am posting this in hopes of preventing anyone from getting into a sticky situation. As of today, all PTRA Police, all Port of Houston Police, all Houston Police Dept. officers and all officers of the Harris County Sherrif's office were issued standing orders to arrest anyone on railroad property, regardless of what railroad, who can not or refuses to show a legimate ID, with photograph, that identifies them as a railroad employee. Adults are to be processed, minors are to be detained untill a guardian is present to accept custody of said minor. Our police, (PTRA) sat in on all of our job briefings today, and informed us of this. They advised us if we know any railrans, to please explain to them that they should excerise caution when doing so, and at all time stay off of railroad property. They are quite familar with most of the fans around here, and are advising them of the same. They have no leeway in who they are required to arrest. If you are on property, and dont work here, you will be arrested, period. They were issued strict instructions by the FBI, and the homeland security detail here at the Port of Houston to arrest any non-employee on property, period. Now, although this applies only to the Port of Houston, as far as I know, I would suggest to all that they carry a photo Id, your state drivers liecense should suffice, and have a contact who you can call just in case. I would also like to advise you to excerise extreme caution around yards, bridges, and any chemical plants. If you are stopped or approached by any railroad's police officer, expect at the least to be questioned, in detail.
This advice comes from the top cop here at the Port of Houston, and he suggested that such instructions would be issued to most railroad's police depts, but especialy those near or serving major ports and chemical complexes nationwide.
I am not trying to scare you guys away, most of you should know I like railfans, just giving you a heads up to be prepaired, these guys are serious about this now.
You all Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the heads up. The railroad that I work for, however, doesn't issue photo ID's. Looks like we should. Stay safe and thanks again.
emory

[edblysard]

We got the full blown deal. And our new ones, due this month, have a magnetic encoding in them, and our locomotives will be equiped with a scanner, like the ones at gas pumps. Untill the engineer inserts his card, and leaves it in the slot, the motor will not move. It will not accept a switchmans card, only engineers. Some of the industries we serve are going to install this device at their gates, so they can record who on the railroad crew opened their gates to pull or spot cars. Oh, and our locomotives are getting a simple gps system, with data feedback, so if one does move without the cards ok, it can be remotely shut down, or if it becomes active when it shouldnt, like when someone hijacks or steals a locomotive, our security guys can shut it down.
James Bond watch out!!!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

You guys down at the Port have gone all out--but then again you have to. Stay safe down there.
emory

[edblysard]

You too, thanks,
Ed

[wabash1]

Ed
I work for the ns and rules state that i cant tell you what is going on here nation wide. but it is in the best intrest of the railfan to stay away from the rails. not just in the city but in the burbs to. The police are serous about this. And i would venture to say that most class 1 roads are doing the same. To put it bluntly if you normaly see someone like maintance crews or switchers rr cops and the routine has changed or they become scarice, then you should to. In short it sont matter who you are you will be arrested and detained. Treated like a criminal and spend time in the grey bar motel. just a friendly warning. the cops mean buisness.

[edblysard]

That they most certinly do...
Stay Frosty
Ed

[Anonymous]

We have a standing GBO issued to each crew to keep a lookout for trespassers and people hanging around the tracks, in particular near bridges and tunnels. I only wished that management would come through with that 50 caliber machine gun mounted on the short hood that I requested months ago. ( Kidding)

[Jackflash]

Change that 50 to a 20mm you'll get more range and better knock down,,,,we too have been "offically" advised to report anyone on or near the property, In the past nothing was said if
a hobo was discovered, now they want to know about it, also "kids" playing near the tracks..call it in. jackflash

[Anonymous]

Reminds me of visiting eastern europe years ago- you could be arrested for looking at trains. the Greek's arrested some Brit's last year for plane spotting. Are we going down that path? I KNOW that this has a serious side, and we need to be alert, but the Bush/Ascroft/Ridge crowd are getting carried away with themselves.

[BRAKIE]

Well,I dare the cops to say anything to me for railfaning..They do they will be in deep trouble....You see I can sit on my front porch and watch NS all day long...I live 5 houses down from the Sandusky line and have a nice view of the passing trains.

Thanks guys for the heads up..

[eolafan]

Wow, this really bums me out! I have not been trackside for a couple of months now due to the cold, but have been itching to go "fanning" once teh weather warms up. We (a bunch of us for about ten years now) have been going near the BNSF main in Eola, but have been careful to park only on city streets, but I must admit we get pretty close to the tracks (I'd guess about fifty feet or so), any thoughts on whether this will cause any problems. The railroad crews, local guys and the police (I even have the business card of the BNSF division police supervisor in my wallet) know all of us by sight and have never given any of us "regulars" any hassle at all, they are a pretty good group of people and almost all wave at us as they drive by. Thoughts?

[edblysard]

You lucky dog, you...

[edblysard]

Dont know what they have been told. If you have the division super's card, call and ask. I did notice our cops beings cool about it, they havent given a hard time to any known fans, as long as they stay off the property. Although, we are surrounded on three side by major public roads, and most of the train watchers can park in an industries parking lot and watch. Maby a little pro active work, next time you see one of the rr cops, flag them down and ask them if where you are is ok with them? Puts them on the spot, if they say yes, then they shouldnt be able to hassle you later, if no, well, ask them where you can go. You would be surprised at how well they know the right of way, they may even give you a tip or two...
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

what is the railroad right-of-way on either side of the track? How many feet on either side (a Class 1 railroad thru public territory)

[edblysard]

Depends on the road, but a safe bet would be to assume 50'. Not only should that keep yuo off property, it should keep you in a safe zone, away from debris, hanging chains, shifted loads
Ed

[Anonymous]

Hi Larry,

How is the wreck clean up going? I understand that some trailers were blown into the Sandusky Bay during the storm last week.

Greg - Cleveland

[Anonymous]

I would pay to see that.....Oh nevermind I might get aressted ;)

Icemanmike2 Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

Well I guess this is a sobering wakeup call to all of us! Our lil RR family just might be a target to terrorist. I agree with Ed, If in doubt ask! Most people in the RR family would be more then happy to keep us out of cuffs and off of there property. Although that bridge thing kinda sucks. Realisicly, of your on a overpass (for a road) what could anyone say? I dont think its too unusual for someone to stop and watch a train. Well unless your in a tanker truck!
Icemanmike2-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

I guess this gets us around to just what can we do? I've been an active railfan for 40 years - I enjoy going out and watching and photographing trains (30,000 + slides). I have never been hurt, I have never destroyed RR property, and I'd like to think that my presence has scared off "hooligans" more than a few times. Based on general directives to RR police and Office of Homeland Security it sounds more and more like we will not be permitted to continue our endevor - either on or off RR property. I really think that it is time for both sides of this issue to work out some reasonable policies. It's like telling fly fisherman that they can't fish anymore because the potential exisits for terrorists poisoning water supplies. NYC has already banned photography of bridges (idiotic!) because of the potential of someone using photos to plan an attack. I've got news for you, you can lay your hands on plans for most of the major landmark structures in the country. Not to mention satellite images of most rail lines. I certainly understand the need to stay off of RR property - but to restrict our freedom to photograph trains must be defended. The police must work to understand who poses a threat and who doesn't. It's not a guy with $2000 worth of photo gear taking great train photos from public property. Perhaps our friends at Trains could weigh in on this.

[edblysard]

Hey there, Mudhen,
I am the guy who posted this, so I think I can give you a point of view, at least from down here in Houston. What our Railroad Police have been doing is trying to keep people off property, not to stop them from watching. So far, if your on public property, and they notice you, they pull up and watch you watching. If you dont move on, they will approach you, and ask you for you ID. If you dont have any warrants, and you dont sound like someone who would, they explain why they approached you and questioned you, then they advise you to keep off property, and advised you that you most likley will be questioned again. So far, the only people they have arrested has been a devestatedly drunk guy who was walking down the middle of the yard, and walked straight into a parked locomotive, and a few kids stealing bags of flour out of a boxcar.
For the most part, they know the local fans, and again, as long as they are off porperty, no sweat. I would imagine most rr cops are acting the same way, and most know who is a railfan and who dosnt fit the description. But I posted this with the intent of giving you guys a heads up, not trying to scare you off, just be prepared to be looked at more closely. I would guess the guys with the cheap little disposable cameras and small digital rigs trying not to be noticed would draw more attention than the guy with the Cannon F1, tripod and telephoto, who is highly visable and acts like he has every right in the world to take pictures of anything he wants to from public property, which you have, so far.
But yeah, it would make sense to start a dialog with the powers that be to see exactly they will tolerate. Hope you dont let them scare you off, I would hope they understand that the rights you are excersising are the ones they should be protecting...
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I've been reading the posts here for the first time. I just read on a couple of web sites that even if your not on railroad property, you will be questioned. Seems that a guy in greenville tx. which is right down the road from where I live, was photographing trains on the KCS in greenville. He took pictures then moved on to farmersville, about 13 miles away. Set up and waited for the train. When the train passed the conductor called the yard in wylie tx. to report a suspicious individual taking photos. He heard them on the scanner, but continued to lavon tx.set up again, and had the engineer flip him the finger. It wasn't a thunbs up! anyway the crew got his license plate number. his wife called him to say that a railroad official had just called the house. he got the number from her then called the official back. the railroad asked him to stop taking photos of their trains. Also read about problems aroun the tower 55 area in ft.worth. a guy had the police, and the f.b.i. show up on him, even though he had railroad mags in the back seat the police still didn't believe him when he told them what he was doing! All this kinda sucks, I dont have expensive equipment, but just got a used camcorder. GUESS I WONT GET TO USE IT! In my other activity , skateboarding there is a saying [use a skate go to prison] I guess the same will apply to railfanning too. JEZZ! I JUST CANT FIND AN ACCEPTIBLE HOBBY OR ACTIVITY!!! MIKE

[edblysard]

Hi Mike, sorry to hear your gonna let one or two bad stories chase you away. In reality, most railroaders dont mind fans, at least I dont, and most of the guys I work with dont. But it all depends on the railroads point of view. Like I said, most of the railroad cops know the local fans, so why dont you go introduce yourself to them next time you see one crusing the property.
Explain you you are, what you want to do, and ask where they would think a good, public spot is. I hope, like most rr cops down here, they would take your name, check you out, and then suggest a close parking lot of public place.
What I want to tell you is to keep at it, until they tell you to quit. Be paient, polite and cooperative, but its still not illegal. Dont force the issue to the point you get into trouble, there are still lots of places and lots of railroads that dont mind fans. Remember, before sept. 11th, theses problems were around, it just has been magnified by this tragedy.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

this is a little out of my league, but true terrorists seem to be very smart. Why would they tip their hand by exposing themselves to possible sightings. If they needed pictures of an area, wouldn't they do it by tele-photo lens from afar.

We have so much available in electronics, etc. I can't imagine our checking all the airports, trains and all transportation is going to stop someone who is determined to do something. So far all they have done is inconvenience the traveling public and scare the daylights out of everyone else. In my mind they are accomplishing a lot - they have made us very nervous!

[BRAKIE]

I really don't know..I haven't been up there. Sorry,its just to dang cold around that lake and bay for me..My teeth chatter just from thinking about it! LOL

[wabash1]

The terroist have not scared me i still haul my haz-mat trains at track speed. i do everything i use to. i live life as normal. dont give into the terroist is all i am saying. as far as the crew giving the guy the finger all you do is get the engine number and turn him in. most class 1 roads wont stand for that behavior from the employees, no matter what caused it. But it is hard to fight someone you dont know who it is or what they look like that is what has the law enforcment looking at everyone.

[edblysard]

Hi Jenny,
I agree, we really couldnt stop them from doing something like sept 11th again, if they were determined. The only way we could accompli***hat would be to radicaly change our society into something most Americans wouldnt reconize or tolerate, and I think thats part of what these clown's goal was, to change American from a open society to a closed, or restricted one.
One of the things I have learned in a varied work life is that Teddy R's famous "walk softly, but carry a big stick" is an appropriate foreign policy. Swift, massive and brutal retailtation would have solved a lot. That part of the middle east is made up of so many little religious and fanatical peoples that never in history have they ever been unified into any real nations, at least as we know and understand the term. So as long as no outside force applies pressure, and forces them to become a single group that the UN could deal with, we will allways have these small factions capable of committing such acts of terror, and no real recourse for us to follow. Its sorta like Vietnam, where no one but us wore uniforms, and everyone looked the same, so whos the bad guys and who aint? Societies only change when either economic pressure is applied, as in the old Soviet Union, or military pressure and force is used, like western Europe and Japan after WWII. For the most part, the poeples of the midle east have never had a say in who lead them, and they form little groups of self interest anyway, no matter what party is in power. Economic pressure really wont work, they have enough oil under their feet to finance themselves, in real terms, for ever, so that leaves military pressure, which, in my opinion, should have been much swifter than it seems to be. Simply put, on sept 13th, the president should have asked congress to delcare war, and on sept 14th, every airplane the US Navy had should have been flying over them, and anything that moved, regardless of what it was, should have been shot. A few days of having all of their cars, planes, buses and trains, not to mention evey piece of roadway and railway destroyed would have forced them into a corner. Make it real clear, either give us these people responsible for the sept 11th acts, or suffer being bombed back beyond the third century.
No, I am not a war monger, and I wi***here was another way, but anything less than a full bore approach would leave us in the position of negoitating with terrorist, and the problem with that is they never are satisified with what you offer, and they allways hold you hostage with threats of more terror, constantly demanding more and more. I, for one, dont intend to live in fear of these people. While I feel Iraq has made no overt attacks against America, it is apparent they support their leader, or at least fear him enough to not revolt and remove him. So whats about to happen there is a show of American force, intended to impress upon the rest of the middle east just what we can do to them, if they continue to allow terrorist to live and draw upon their resources. Not nice, not pretty, but effective. It may sound silly, but the day you, and all other Americans cant walk around, taking pictures of their own country, and the things we have struggled so hard and so long to make here is the day the terrorist have, in part, accomplished their mission, to change America. I dont want that to happen, and I hope most Americans would agree..
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Hi Ed / all:

Well, this IS a hot topic.

Ed's right in that what the terrorists really want is to destroy our freedoms - Osama said that very thing soon after the 11th. However, to many Americans our freedoms are intact and there has been little visible impact - other than at airports.

The real impact is in the form of information gathering and of course to people with unusual interests like train watching and photography. As for the use of force against the Arab world, we all have our own opinions - personally I swing between Ed's "solution" and a more measured response. In reality, there may not be a solution. In fact we are facing an unending cycle of violence caused by politics, coruption, and ignorance.

Getting back to train watching (sounds kind of insignificant now), I do most of my chasing up in the Cascades. I rarely if ever see RR police. Usually a trainmaster or even more common maintenence personel. However, if train crews are going to start calling in the troops every time they see someone photographing a train, even these remote areas are going to become off limits.

I think that the reason this touches a nerve with all of us is that we truly enjoy our hobby. We like trains, the people who work for the railroads, and generally support the rail industry (even if we work therein). In a way we have put ourselves on the frontlines of personal freedom in this country. We're not suffering from profiling (as in the case of Arab Americans) and we're not engaging in criminal activities (like gangs breaking into containers) - we are just persuing happiness according to our constitution.

I believe it is time that the railroads and their employees understand that they have a standing army of supporters in the form of railfans. We can do more good than harm and certainly provide more surveilance reach (if that's what they want) than their police force. I don't have to tresspass to do what I enjoy and I shouldn't recieve a "shake down" because I follow trains and photograph them.

It is time for a dialogue - and I believe that rail journalists are in a position to facilitate this. Something positive can come out of this situation. It spotlights just what CAN happen to personal freedoms in this country. The long standing uneasy relationship between railroads and railfans should be resolved and we now have reason to see that it is.

Jon Bentz - Seattle, WA

[Mookie]

Wabash, Ed & Jon - will keep it brief, since don't want to make this a political forum - but
the Hazardous Train (derail), the nightclub fires (negligence) the ice/snow storms that paralyze any part of the US now and the drought/floods - the Orange security alerts, plastic and duct tape and on and on - seems like the terrorists don't need to do anything - we can shoot ourselves in the foot all alone!

[edblysard]

Agreed, I got lots of bullet holes in my boot tops...and a few teeth marks too!
But, as absract as it may seem, I want the right to shoot my own foot, without interference from my goverment trying to protect me from myself.
Stay Frosty,
And Jon, I am all ears, show me a better, more decisive solution, and I back it up. A phrase from my not to distant youth, "WAR SUCKS"