Flying Switch moves

[Anonymous]

Do any of the railroads still use this method of switching cars? Saw some tapes of this type of action and it seems dangerous to me.

Larry

[CopCarSS]

When I used to hang around Sterling, IL around Northwestern Steel and Wire, the CNW crews used to kick cars quite a bit. It's been awhile since I've seen it though. Of course, I don't hang around major switch jobs like that too much anymore, so it very well could still be in use. I'm sure some of the railroaders in here will be able to answer this better than I ever could.

[ndbprr]

Depends. I've seen crews with a string of cars at the B&OCT yard in Chicago do it where the trains stops after the pin is pulled so cars can drift into a siding and eliminate the back up move for the next car. If you are talking the version that involves the engine and car being separated on the fly with the engine between the car and the switch and then the engine speeding into the clear so the person on the ground can throw the switch and allow the car to drift on into the siding. Haven't seen that one and suspect that most railroads frown heavily upon it to the point of firing someone if they did. Railroads also used to use pole cars so an engine could be on an adjacent track and move a car with a large wood pole. In fact the PRR had special pole cars for that purpose. That is what that little dimple is for on the corner of older cars. I believe that was outlawed by the AAR or FRA.

[Anonymous]

ndbprr's post is talking about kicking cars and also what is known as a "drop." Kicking is a great switch move when it is practicle and a drop is scary.......banned on the BNSF unless specified acceptable in a subdivisions special instructions.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

A drop is the move also referred to as a flying switch, I have only seen the move executed twice, both times successfully. With the maneuvering and timing involved, there are plenty of opportunities for screw-ups, so management definitely frowns on the practice.

There was an article in TRAINS a few years back about poling, I am almost positive that poling is now illegal.

[jimrice4449]

The BN bad-ordered me after I failed my physical in 1988 so I can't give you any current info, but, at the time I left it was SOP. Cars were dropped into facing point spurs as a regular thing. The hairiest drops I saw regularly were before I transered into train service and was working the third trick towerman job at Burbank Jct on the SP. The Coast line diverged there from the Valley line and the tower controlled both the main line and Coast siding switches. The LA Yard yard limits ended about half way up the siding and after a short span the Gemco Yard limits started. If it was necessary to deliver some hot cars to the GM assembly plant at Gemco (Van Nuys) a LA Yard crew would take them to hand over to a Gemco crew. The problem was that if either crew crossed the gap and entered the other yard limit it was an extra hundred miles of pay.
In order to make the transfer the LA Yard crew headed up the grade on the Coast siding, cut off from the cars and pulled ahead past a TRAILING POINT switch, a switchman threw the switch and the engine then backed into the spur in the face of the approaching cars and the switchman lined the switch behind. After the cars cleared the switch the engine then came out and shoved the cars to where the west end of the cut was in the Gemco yard limits. Delivery accomplished. I watched them peform this ballet any number of times and they never cornered a car or got the engine trapped in the spur but the potential for disaster was always there.

[richardy]

A short line was still using a drop at one customer about six months ago. I am by there once a week but my timing and theirs is not always the same so I have not seen them switch that customer for several months. They are very good at performing the move.

[tree68]

I saw the move done years ago on the C&O, and successfully. I almost think they coasted the car to a spot without having to push it.

IIRC, we've talked about this before, and the consensus was that you shouldn't be doing it any more.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the info.

Larry

[csxengineer98]

ok...i need some clerificatin here...what exactly are you calling a "flying switch" move?... do you mean "swinging" cars at a switch? becouse im a little confused to what move your actuly wanting.....
csx engineer

[edblysard]

CSX..
I think they are referring to a drop....because we kick cars all day long where I work...its part and parcel of flat yard switching...

You know the GCOR say dropping cars is forbidden, but in reality, with the right crew, and at the right place, its a breeze...saves several moves....

Taylor,
There are a couple of types of drops, or Flying switches...the most common is where the cars are cut off on the run, the engine goes past the siding switch, the helper/switchman/brakeman lines the cars into the siding, then catches them and ties them down or busts the air when they are in the clear.
A Dutch Drop guides the locomotive into the siding, the cars go straight on the main, the locomotive backs out of the siding, and chases the cars down...lets you swap the cars from one end to the other with out a wye or a double ended siding to run around them.

We even kick or shove them up hill, tie them down, put the motor in a siding, then let the brakes off the car(s) and it rolls back down, past the switch, and we tie it down again, then run the motor out and couple back into the cars...

But offically, we havent dropped a car down here in a long time![8D]

Ed

[Anonymous]

I was referring to when one engine with a single car would get up a head of steam and would pu***he car to a certain point and would break from the car. Someone would throw the switch and the Brakeman (I assume) would ride the car into a siding and stop it at some point. In the videos I saw, they referred to this as a flying switch move.

[espeefoamer]

I saw a Dutch Drop performed at a local industry near my home,but this was back in the late 60s.

[Anonymous]

Ed,
Thanks for the update. If anyone could set us straight, I knew you would. Thanks again.

Larry

[edblysard]

Well, Taylor,
What is referred to in the film as a flying switch is what we call a kick...I do it all day long, kicking cars into a track, my helper rides it in deep enough to hold the other cars we have marked for that track,(or siding) and ties the hand brake down.
We use that car as a bumper to kick other cars against...when it fills up, and if there is room behind that first car, we shove it down, and keep on kicking till that track is full.
A drop usually involves trying to get a car from behind a locomotive to in front of it, or vice versa....
How old, or when was the film shot?

A lot of the lingo is still in use, but a lot of the terms from the steam days has been modified, or is no longer used...tell a "new" guy your going to pole a car out of the way, and he is lost...for good reason, poling cars is dangerous, real dangerous, and no one does it anymore...

Ed

Ed

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

CSX..
I think they are referring to a drop....because we kick cars all day long where I work...its part and parcel of flat yard switching...

You know the GCOR say dropping cars is forbidden, but in reality, with the right crew, and at the right place, its a breeze...saves several moves....

Taylor,
There are a couple of types of drops, or Flying switches...the most common is where the cars are cut off on the run, the engine goes past the siding switch, the helper/switchman/brakeman lines the cars into the siding, then catches them and ties them down or busts the air when they are in the clear.
A Dutch Drop guides the locomotive into the siding, the cars go straight on the main, the locomotive backs out of the siding, and chases the cars down...lets you swap the cars from one end to the other with out a wye or a double ended siding to run around them.

We even kick or shove them up hill, tie them down, put the motor in a siding, then let the brakes off the car(s) and it rolls back down, past the switch, and we tie it down again, then run the motor out and couple back into the cars...

But offically, we havent dropped a car down here in a long time![8D]

Ed

stadic drops are alowed on CSX last time i checked... but we dont have alot of places where we have the rigth condistions to do one around here...althow there are still a few places where you can do one with no problem... as far as kicking..yea..we do them all the time at the termial im at...
i am thinking that he was refering to swinging a car into a switch to get it on the other end of the engin when thier isnt a run around track to use...
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by taylorl

I was referring to when one engine with a single car would get up a head of steam and would pu***he car to a certain point and would break from the car. Someone would throw the switch and the Brakeman (I assume) would ride the car into a siding and stop it at some point. In the videos I saw, they referred to this as a flying switch move.

ohhhhhhhh ok...yea you are talking about swinging......oh yea..that is totaly illegal on csx.......
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

Ed,
These was some old Pentrex videos about railfanning in the 50's and 60's in Calif. These Pentrex videos were dated in the 93-95 time frame.

Larry

[Big_Boy_4005]

The dangerous move is not done pushing the car. Like Ed said, pushing and releasing (kicking) is done commonly.

The dangerous move which I always thought was the flying switch, (though I've heard the term Dutch drop) is the facing point move to get a car onto a spur, when no runaround is available. This means the engine is PULLING the car, and has to accelerate away past the switch, after the pin is pulled.

It's a 3 man job. Engineer, man on the ground to throw the switch, and man on the car to pull the pin, and set the brake. This move you run the risk of the car not clearing the fouling point. My guess is that situation is remedied by getting some chains and pulling the car clear.

Poleing would be the opposite move to get the car out. 100% illegal. Pole breaks, and you get "crew on a stick".

[dmcclendon]

I remember back in the 60's and 70's the SSW (Cotton Belt) and SLSF (Frisco) used the Dutch drop very successfully on our branchlines in my town. They both would back up a several hundred feet blow the whistle and get a good running start and uncouple. Most of the trains were anywhere 3 to 10 cars in length. But then in late 70's and 80's they started using the run around track and back them in the sidings.

[edblysard]

Ok,
And here is a good example of the difference in lingo...
CSXengineer is using the term "swinging a car into a switch", which down here, is a "standing dutch drop"...a move where we kick a car up an incline, past a switch, and scoot into the siding or other track, and if you time it right, the car(s) stop, then roll back past you, you come out of the siding and chase them down...a big time no no if the wrong people are watching...we can do this legally, if someone rides the car up the incline and applies brakes, to make it stay put long enough to get the locomotive in the siding or other track safely, then release the brake, and ride it back down past the switch, stopping it with the hand brake.
Or the opposite, drag it real fast, cut off on the fly, line the car into the incline, when it gets in the track, you back up past the switch, and catch it on the front of the engine when it rolls back out...
you don’t really need a incline to drop it into a track from behind the engine, once its in the track, the brakeman just ties it down, you back up, then go into the siding to pick it up on the front...which is what I believe CSXengineer is really referring to...his swing/switch is our running drop...

Another example...we hired a few guys from the New Orleans Public Belt...over here in Houston, we call coupling up to cars "making the joint"...they called it "making the couple", really confused the new guy when I told him we were going to go into track 41 and make a joint...he looked at me with the strangest expression!
Took me a few seconds to realize how that must have sounded!

Got him squared away that we were not going to go “toke up a bomber”; but were going to go couple into track 41!

So the term Flying Switch might just be the term used locally, where that piece of film was shot, a term we would use the word "kick" for, and may be common to that particular railroad...

There are some universal terms…I can guarantee you that if you holler "Plug it", "Big hole" or "Wipe the clock" to any engineer, on any railroad, you had better be holding on to something sturdy, because a lot of real heavy stuff is going to try and stop really quickly!
Ask any crew if they ever had a "dynamiter", and you will get some hilarious stories out of them...

Ed

[greyhounds]

Gotta comment on this one.

I watched the C&IM do this in Manito, IL when I was a kid. The way they did it was at least a four person job.

A southbound extra had to get a car into Ricket's Elevator on the south end of town through a facing point switch.

The cast was:

1) guy on the throttle
2) guy on the ground at the switch
3) guy riding the car to operate the uncoupling lever
4) guy riding the car operating the hand brake

Process:

1) accelerate towards the switch giving the freight car rolling engergy
2) brake rapidly to bunch the coupler and allow uncoupling
3) "pull the pin" and uncouple
4) singnal engineer to accerate away from free rolling car
5) accerate enough to get sufficient space between locomotives and car to allow the switch to be thrown.
6) throw the switch between the moving locos and the moving car
7) brake the car so as to stop it before the end of the siding but not before it cleared the swtich.

Quite a darn show for a small town boy. Couldn't wait until I got old enough to do it myself. Of course, I never did it myslef. But I saw it done by some real professional railroaders.

The C&IM's employee timetable carried a warning that such an operation was illegal in the city of Pekin, Illinois.

[jeaton]

In my short stint brakeing on the Milwaukee Road, I participated in a few drops. Not so bad in the 5 man crew days. As the new guy, I road the engine foot board and pulled the pin at the appropriate time-when the engineer cut the throttle so the slack made it possible to pull the pin. When the engine was lose, he accelerated to clear the switch. The conductor threw the switch and the rear brakeman was on the car to set the hand brake to stop the car at the desired spot. I remember that one of the drops was to put a car on a siding that ran up a pretty good grade to the industry spot.

Definately not a job for amateurs. Years later when I was working on the IC, a conductor was killed on a drop of a high sided wood ship car. He was at the switch, the car speed was a bit too high and it tip over on him.

I suppose a drop could be done with a three man crew, conductor throws the switch and then climbs on the moving car to set the brake, but I think I would vote no.

Jay

[csxengineer98]

no... swinging a switch is grayhound said... what you called a dutch drop is what i was calling a static drop...
csx engineer

[trainfan1221]

I`ve seen the NYSW do this in Ridgefield Park. They would get up speed and let a car fly. It was definitely interesting. Haven`t seen it lately.

[Randy Stahl]

Correct me if I'm wrong but are'nt gravity drops still permitted under GCOR?

[edblysard]

Running and dutch drops are not allowed...but the rule dosnt say a thing about CSXengineers swing switch and our gravity drop...if it dont say you can't....
All is fair in love and switching....[:D]
Ed

[jeffhergert]

Made me get out my GCOR.
7.7 Kicking or Dropping Cars
Kicking or dropping cars is permitted only when it will not endanger employees, equipment, or contents of cars.
Before dropping cars, crew members must fully understand the intended movement. They must verify that the track is sufficiently clear and that switches and hand brakes are in working order. If possible, the engine must run on a straight track. Cars must not be dropped over spring switches or dual control switches.

My system special instructions states "Dropping cars is permitted only on territory where specifically authorized."
My SSI also has a new rule.
7.7.1 Gravity Switch Moves
Unless otherwise restricted, a gravity switch move can be utilized where cars must be repositioned on the opposite end of the engine. Not more than five cars may be handled at one time in this manner, and only with sufficient hand brakes manned by crew members to insure that the movement can be controlled. Riding the hand brake on shiftable loads must be avoided.
When making this move, the hand brakes to be used to control the movement must be tested to insure proper operation. Hand brakes may then be released to allow cars to gravity roll into desired track. Crew members must ride the cars and use the hand brakes to control speed and to stop. Such cars must not be allowed to couple to other equipment while this method of switching is being used. Other methods of handling such moves, historically referred to as "dropping cars" are prohibited, except at specific locations where authorized.

Jeff

[ericsp]

When the switches start flying, my move is to get out of there.[:D]

[Anonymous]

Well guys I have seen the flying switch one time the yard crew had one car the wanted on a parllel track and the car was behind the engin an old sd-9 ;they gave the car a lerching pull , uncoupled ,ran fast ahead of the moving car on to the main line creating a big gap from the engin to the following car then the switchman threw the switch to the passing track and the car floated into the siding the breakman was ridding the car and set the hand brake wheel when the car reached the spot where the crew wanted it on the siding. boy howdy... man it was fun to watch i would like to think they did it for my benifit becouse they kew i was watching glennbob[angel][angel][C):-)][wow]