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Posted by Mookie on Monday, September 12, 2005 6:34 AM
Saw two motors and an extremely long line of flat cars heading east.

Couldn't see the beds of the flat cars, but could they have been just empties or....could they have been hauling some kind of pipes that couldn't be stacked?

The ends looked like they may have ridges like Ruffles - where an individual pipe would fit. They definitely weren't just flat cars.

Da Mook

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Posted by adrianspeeder on Monday, September 12, 2005 6:36 AM
Hold rail maybe?

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Posted by Mookie on Monday, September 12, 2005 6:46 AM
I thought about that - would have been flat car size pieces of rail.

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Posted by mudchicken on Monday, September 12, 2005 6:53 AM
Mook: There is a pipeline boom out here in the Colorado, New Mexico and Utah natural gas fields. You very well may have seen some of CF&I/Oregon Steel Mill's TOFC flatcars that have been converted to pipe service. The cars are usually black, yellow or robins egg blue 89 foot flats w/ rounded bulkhead ends.
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Posted by Mookie on Monday, September 12, 2005 7:27 AM
Sir Chix - these were TTX flat cars. But the ends looked odd - The cars were elevated enough I couldn't look down on them; just had to check out the ends. Looked a little like a box of staples if you open one end.

If they had something in them, it never showed over the top.

(I need to learn to draw....)

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 12, 2005 7:33 AM
BNSF Railway is making Big money there.
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Posted by spbed on Monday, September 12, 2005 8:44 AM
Any pix?[:o)][:p][:)]

Originally posted by Mookie
[

Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR  Austin TX Sub

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Posted by Mookie on Monday, September 12, 2005 8:52 AM
No - I am so horrible with a camera. And from our vantage point, it would have looked like a long string of just flat cars. Still waiting for my new camera from Bergie, but so far he is ignoring me. I think it is the part where he would have to live here for a month to teach me how to use it.....

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Posted by CShaveRR on Monday, September 12, 2005 9:32 AM
SJ, I'm betting on pipe, too. If you get a chance to see these TTX cars again, get the precise reporting mark. If it's PTTX, they're pipe cars, for sure!

(Rail is usually transported in MTTX cars that have short bulkheads on the ends.)

BC[:I]

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Posted by corwinda on Monday, September 12, 2005 6:28 PM
When I was in Nevada I saw lots of pipe come through on JTTX 89' flats. Always with an empty auto rack on each end of the train unless they were part of a regular manifest train (which was rare.) Sometimes the auto racks went back with the empty flats.
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Posted by edblysard on Monday, September 12, 2005 6:48 PM
TTJX?
Finger rack flats...we see them every once in a while with rebar and small dia pipe...

Ed

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Posted by Junctionfan on Monday, September 12, 2005 6:50 PM
I have seen TTX flats carrying large diameter pipe from IPSCO out in Western Canada to Buffalo Junction. I have also noticed that rebar and steel plating are loaded on it too. I saw this in Brantford, Ontario which was kind of odd to me because the industry usually takes plate steel by the 60 foot flats (MTTX I believe).

Another interesting possibility is steel beams not necessarily the behemoth kinds. I believe I have seen that on a CN train heading from Buffalo to Sarnia. (Note that the train stops at Hamilton and may be dropping of cars for Stelco or Dofasco Steel; also, CN switcher train 555 operates between Aldershot Yard and Hamilton and often picks up cars at the Rail Link Hamilton Yard for other CN trains to take to Mac Millan Yard)

Don't think that helps but thought it might be an interesting addition of information.[:)]
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Posted by CShaveRR on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:23 AM
No, JTTX and TTJX aren't the same thing. JTTX is sort of a catch-all reporting mark for TTX "standard" flat cars. In fact, a few cars now lettered PTTX were lettered JTTX previously.

Our latest big-pipe moves through here have had everything hauled on long CP flats.

Carl

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Posted by Mookie on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 6:22 AM
OK - I can't get into a website that Houston Ed sent me - but he wants me to look at some photos of finger rack flat cars. Anyone have such pictures that they can post? This almost sounds like what I was looking at while train watching.

Any pictures will be appreciated.

Mook

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Posted by CShaveRR on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:38 AM
SJ, Ed's "finger" cars don't often get used for pipe--they're mostly for things like rebar, and occasionally for bar stock or, as he says, thin pipe.

Simple question: were the cars you saw about 89 feet long (typical of old piggyback flat cars) or about 60-70 feet long? The "finger" cars are shorter; the PTTX pipe cars I mentioned are longer.

Were the "ridges" wooden? The "fingers" on the cars Ed wants you to see are steel, and several feet tall.

Carl

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Posted by ericsp on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:57 AM
Here are some photographs of TTJX flatcars.

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Posted by Mookie on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 6:55 AM
Ok - let's start with the picture above. They had no ends and nothing stuck up above the "floor". That was what was so fascinating - it was beginning to get dark and past the engines, you had nothing in your line of sight to indicate there was something on the tracks. Just pure flat, but with the open ends that, like I said, looked a little like maybe there were slots for single pipes or rebars. I couldn't see the ends well enough and we were too low to see if they had actual "floors", so they could have been open or covered.

I know what a gon looks like and these were flat cars - TTX Flat cars. Wouldn't rebar go in gons for travel? I have seen pipe stacked on flat cars - there was nothing on the "top" of these flat cars, so maybe they were just empty and traveling east - a whole lot of them - I am guesstimating at least 80 cars - comparing them with the length of coal trains.

The ends just looked odd, since there were no bulkheads -is that the term for the end caps?

I get so involved in watching, I forget to write down pertinent info - gotta work on that.

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Posted by fuzzybroken on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:47 AM
Hmmm... Here's my guess... Might they have been MT auto-frame flatcars? They usually have a little basket on one/both ends, like... the one I thought I had an online picture of... sorry Mook![banghead]

At least I got my signature to work now... (finally!)
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Posted by Mookie on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:42 AM
Mark - I went on Google and found them - they look just like those, but take the ends off. That is why they looked so strange - they had no ends!

That's why they looked so odd - and dangerous in the dark - nothing stuck up so you would see it as it passed by. Looked like ironing boards on wheels. (well, the women on the forum will get a charge out of this!)

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Posted by ericsp on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:05 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by fuzzybroken

Hmmm... Here's my guess... Might they have been MT auto-frame flatcars? They usually have a little basket on one/both ends, like... the one I thought I had an online picture of... sorry Mook![banghead]

At least I got my signature to work now... (finally!)


I doubt it, there are very few auto assembly plants out west. I know the one in Warm Springs, CA does not bring in parts by rail. They are probably empty pipe cars.

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Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:52 PM
What about wire? I quite often see CN 89 foot flats carrying spools of steel wire.
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Posted by Mookie on Thursday, September 15, 2005 6:18 AM
Andrew - wouldn't the transfer of wire still have bulkheads to separate the cars? I don't know. I don't think I have ever seen any wire being moved.

I have decided either they were unfinished flat cars or they had hauled something that was long enough that it would cover maybe a flat and a half and then tied on somehow. The cargo was delivered and now they were all headed back home to have their ends put back on.

Am I living in fantasy land? I know what I saw (and confirmed it with the driver!)- just don't know why they don't route that unusual stuff through Kansas so I don't see it and then have to always wonder!

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Posted by Junctionfan on Thursday, September 15, 2005 6:34 AM
No; not always. CN does use there own bulkheads that seem to be especially for that kind of loads.

http://freight.railfan.ca/cn/cnis621110.jpg

However, they do use 89 foot flat plus the 50 foot versions. Here is a 89 foot version I believe.

http://www.niagararails.com/cgi-bin/railcars1.cgi?/railcars/cn/639236cn.jpg
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Posted by Mookie on Thursday, September 15, 2005 7:20 AM
The first picture is the flat car I am used to seeing - just not with wire. We do see a lot of the coil cars, which always remind me of a smoker for BBQ (with the lids) but I digress....

The 2nd one I haven't seen at all. That's interesting.

Take the 1st picture, remove the bulkheads and all the "sticks" on the sides - just a bare platform with no ends. That's what I saw. A lot of them....

What about machinery - really long machinery? Maybe moved to a location on many trainloads and when all unloaded, all the flat cars were sent back on one train?

The machinery couldn't be too heavy - otherwise, they would have to do a different wheel arrangement. You can't put all your weight over the wheels. Did I get that right?

I gotta stop - one question is leading to another!

Mook

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Posted by CShaveRR on Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:19 PM
When you're talking about a lot of plain flat cars with no bulkheads, and nothing except flooring (maybe well-worn flooring if it had "ridges"), it sounds like empties coming back after carrying loads of tractors or something like that. We get a lot of tractor loads for eastern destinations (probably most of which are shipped out at various east-coast ports). Again, a reporting mark would be helpful--there are a couple of groups of cars with tiedowns (chains, etc) for this purpose: the 60-footers are usually lettered OTTX, and the 89-footers are ITTX.

Carl

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Posted by Mookie on Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:31 PM
I know it was TTX for sure. It may have had an I in the front, but that would have been the only alpha letter besides TTX. I remember looking at the ends and seeing the TTX on the side. Any other letter other than the I would have stuck in my mind....

Excuse me - I have to go call the BNSF and find out.....[}:)]

They said they will give the message to the same person that is supposed to send my reward check re: the broken rail I reported!

[sigh]

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Posted by Junctionfan on Thursday, September 15, 2005 6:16 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

When you're talking about a lot of plain flat cars with no bulkheads, and nothing except flooring (maybe well-worn flooring if it had "ridges"), it sounds like empties coming back after carrying loads of tractors or something like that. We get a lot of tractor loads for eastern destinations (probably most of which are shipped out at various east-coast ports). Again, a reporting mark would be helpful--there are a couple of groups of cars with tiedowns (chains, etc) for this purpose: the 60-footers are usually lettered OTTX, and the 89-footers are ITTX.


Do the railroads still operate unit John Dere tractor trains (the railroads that serve it)?
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Posted by Junctionfan on Thursday, September 15, 2005 7:09 PM
http://www.trainnet.org/Libraries/catalog002.htm

What about a "Bare table" train? A large string of TOFC flats running back to an intermodal facility.

There is an ATSF bare table train video meeting an ATSF autorack train.
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Posted by ericsp on Thursday, September 15, 2005 7:32 PM
Forget a unit train of wire coil flats. I doubt there is any place out west they makes or uses that much wire.

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Posted by Junctionfan on Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:09 PM
What about LTV Copperweld (merger?)? Where are they located?
Andrew

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