THE RISE AND FALL OF AMERICA

[croteaudd]

The United States has risen to become the greatest power the earth has ever known. But, historically, governments, if not taken over by others, tend to collapse from within. I believe the very dysfunctional nature of economics is a contributing factor to those collapses. Everyone becomes polarized against their neighbor and associate over various issues affecting them as they attempt to cope and survive the mathematical impossible. I also believe that RAILROADS have the capability to be a very healing factor in America, if they could but only realize their full service and profit potential. If that came to fruition, in my humble opinion, America couldn’t help but prosper greatly. Even other modes of transportation, most notably trucking, could be in harmonious peace with railroads, as there would likely come to be an abundance of new business for everyone. I suspect, though, that that kind of marvel is NOT in the cards. Pennywise but pound-foolish railroads are simply too prideful to broaden their horizons. In 1974, the then Secretary of State, Henry Kissenger, was quoted in the New York Times as saying, in light of the historical record of the rise and fall of nations, that “as a historian,” one is
faced with a “sense” that somewhere down the road there is an “inevitability of tragedy.” Inevitability? That is shocking, especially for patriots! Do YOU feel America and railroads will go down such a tragic path like everybody else has throughout history; or, as suggested herein, will railroading come forward and somehow save the day for everyone? What positive, encouraging words do you have to say?

[csxns]

When the USA started building Highways and Airports the country started going downhill.

[Anonymous]

Every nation and empire, like all living things, has a life cycle. The US isn't a nation anymore, as much as it's an empire. I once sat in the food court at Washington's Union Station, and was struck at all the different racial and ethnic groups present; it must have looked very much the same in ancient Rome at their height, with subjects from all over the empire. But to suggest that railroads are in a position to "save the day for everyone", is goofy. Enjoy your trains and model railroads, but remember that railroads, like everything else on this Earth, are the dead works of dead men.

[edblysard]

Wow, I guess I must be one of the few optimist left.
The constitution was designed to be a living document. It is built to change. The framers of that creation understood that all nations before this one were built on the concept that one person or group had to lead, and that the rest of the population would be happy to follow the strong or victorious. They included, on purpose, the part that allowes us, the average joe, to change that document as time went on, and our society changed. They forsaw that things would change, people would come here from other places, and they intended from the start to keep this a democratic republic. If your looking for a true democracy, it can have a population of only one. Any more than that, it could only function as a republic. But we still have something most other nations lack, a civilian leader we elected, and can replace, if we, the people, chose to. I belive we will muddle through the chaos and mayhem of now, and we, as a nation, will be around for a long time. My dad served in the navy for 33 years, his brother in the army air corp, then usaf for 20. They both taught me the value of having a civilian commander in chief, and why we have as many branches of goverment as we do. Its is designed so you really cant build a empire, or even a regime.
You, as a citizen, have more power in your vote and voice that two thirds of the rest of the worlds population. If you dont like how america is being run, vote for change. If you dont vote, dont whine and complain, you wasted one of the most valued and sought after rights in the world.
No one industry can "save" a nation, only the people of that nation can.
Ed

[Anonymous]

This country was built on railroads, and the remarkable and rapid economic development of America was largely due to the expansion of railroads across what was, at the time, a large and empty country. For this reason, I guess we all have a soft spot for the railroads.

However, during the latter half of the 20th Century, other modes of long-distance transport started to develop and evolve. Long-distance freeways and Air passenger networks exploded in growth. For most of this time, the railroads stood still, and eventually found themselves languishing behind other types of transport.

Recently however, with the globalisation of markets, the Railroads have woken up to the fact that they can still be an important player. But need to get out of their stubborn mentality of 'we'll do it our way', they need fresh ideas and a new outlook. Only then can we see the true Railroad revival that we all want to see.

Interesting how you talk about great nations and Empires. Throughout history, all of the great empires the world has ever seen were driven by different transport methods. With the Mongolian empire, it was horses. With the Roman empire, it was roads. With the British, the Navy, and with America, the railroads.

[Anonymous]

Possibly the most overblown missive I've read on any message board, the author should seriously consider a career as a political speechwriter.
Any interesting points for discussion are lost in the avalanche of hyperbole. I enjoy discussing both railroading and history, as well as speculating about the future, but, as much as it pains me to say it,this reads far more like it was written by someone suffering from a neurochemical imbalance than a serious student of history(and I'm not trying to be cute by saying that)................
Definitely up there with the "Indian nuclear steam locomotive" thread in the Trains.com Hall of Fame!

[Anonymous]

Amen! However, that person has the right to say what they think. At least it was not full of profane, vile and rude comments. Unlike some of the junk that's been here lately.
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[edblysard]

But it seem the essence of the question was could railroads save america? Save her from what?
The Romans expanded their roads beyond the limit of Rome to excerise control of them, and resupply the outpost there, as they lost control of their roads, so went their empire. The Mongolians reached geographical limits their horses couldn't overcome. The British learned oppresion, even with a big bad navy, dosnt work, someone will always build a bigger badder navy, and when you reach the limits of your navy to quickly move troops and good to where they are needed? American railroads are businesses, not a arm of our goverment. Their driving force is profit, you go where the money is. If that means you take people there to start towns and business to use your service, well, that kinda smart. But airlines and the interstate are largely funded by federal monies, they are not designed to be profit makers, railroads are. Offer the railroad an economic incentive to go somewhere, and you can bet they will. Tell them its their duty to spend money to save something, with out a profit return on that expense, they will not listen. Your empircial examples all failed because they put all their faith in one system, with out considering that things change, people move, business fail, or another nation wages war on you.
I am still not sure what america needs saving from? Our constitution was designed to be a fluid legal document, it is meant to be changed as time and history progress. Both Jefferson and Franklin were historians, they were well aware of the faults of both Britian, Rome and others, and included legal mechanisims to insure that america wouldnt suffer the same fate.
Railroads are designed to serve lage markets, where the receivers are located in one spot, city or area. If the goverment could force business to congregate in super huge business parks, then railroads would be the transportation mode of choice, due to the efficency it has in large shippments. If you looking for a return to the local drag to service the railway express agency again, never happen. Outside of the densely populated northeast, no railroad made money with passenger service, but were forced to continue to provide that service, even when it caused bankruptcy. All without federal funds to support a program the goverment insisted be kept going, at the railroads expense. "we'll do it our way"? When allowed to shed the passenger expense, most railroads started to make a profit somewhat closer to what other business experience.
Basing your nations survival on one type of business is foolish. Only through the diversity designed into our system can we solve the transportation problem we face. Automobiles, truck and planes have just about reached the end of the technological limits of efficency in terms of speed, fule cost, and production cost, along with the infrastructure need to support them. Unless a really fantastic new technology come along, we are pretty much stuck with what we currently have in those terms. So that leaves the railroad, still good at what it is designed to do, move large lots of stuff vast distances.
Unless the federal goverment decides to buy or build a passenger railroad, your stuck with amtrak. Current railroads are designed, and only efficent when, they go from point a to point z, with no stops in between.
Outside of the northeast corridor, unless we, the public, insist on the goverment building and running a transcontinetal railroad with no intention to make a profit, only for the service of the public, will you see real passenger train service across america again.
And where are these fresh ideas and new outlook suppost to come from? Last time we "imported" fre***alent from outside the railroad culture, over half the workforch was fired, most rails and roadbed suffered deferred maintaince, to the point that they qualify for abandoment, college educated bean counters, who never laid hands to a switch handle decided we could save money by not washing our locomotives, changing the way we did business untill even the most die hard rail shipper decided trucks worked best, and abandoning track that is so sorely needed today because it "cost to much to maintain"?
If you can show me a profit in moving tons of stuff, including people from NY to LA, then move out of the way, we're laying track. If you expect railroads to "save" you from economic ruin through the generosity of their hearts? Dont hold your breath.
We are a nation driven by the concept that each person here has the legal right to try to be sucessful, in what ever business they wi***o put their hands and back too.
I am betting that even if every railroad ceased opperation this day, somewhere in this country is a person or a company willing to take a risk and fill in the gap. Thats how we survived this long, its part of what being american means.
And why does everybody seem upset when a railroad makes money? UP posts a profit in soft economy? So UP managed to make a profit when others didnt, is that somehow unfair?. Were they suppost to fail with everyone else, or were they suppost to share their profit with others? Yeah, you go Uncle Pete...seems someone knew how to do it our way, and make money after all.
Ed

[BRAKIE]

Back in the early 60s the doom and gloom sayers said that all railroads would be gone by the year 2000.Funny,it is 2003 and the railroads are still alive and well.
Gentlemen,Corporate American is what destroyed our great Nation.They have rape the land,polluted the air,water,ground and yes the very food we eat.All of this for greed.The policians and the people did nothing to stop it.Now,we as a people must say ENOUGH! Stop destroying what is left of our country.If not Corporate America will finish destroying the land as well as our nation.Yes,there is the EPA but of late they seem to become a very small voice as well as many Activist Groups..Sadly there are to many policians,judges, and lawyers and sadly those that have sit in the white house in the pockets of Corporate America to take any real action except the mouthing of empty words.

It is not to late to save our country,one way of cleaning up the air is to let the railroads haul all long distance trailers and other freight,get people out of their cars and SUVs and on commuter trains,have passenger trains that run on time and let the passengers be able to take their cars with them much like the auto train,have Corporate America to start really caring about our country and help clean it up.Our elected Policiains do the job they are elected to do and that job is to protect the interest of the Nation and the people.
Yes,America can and will survive..If we all work together as a Nation.God Bless America! Long may she stand!

[Anonymous]

Excellent point, Ed.

Who or what exactly are we saving America from?

[edblysard]

Other than personal injury attorneys, unreasonably hot coffee, flammable weenies and ultra-dangerous grade crossing, I not sure either, he never made that point.
Ed

[sooblue]

Two Thumbs up!
Sooblue

[Anonymous]

Picture this: A wind-swept, bitter cold urban street corner; the citizens huddled on a snow-covered sidewalk waiting for the Petrograd trolley bus. Suddenly, a long, shiney black limosine flashes by; it's filled with Important Government People on their was to do the little people's business, as are the limo's that follow. Save us, oh Lord, from those who would replace Big Business with Big Government. (And when you merge the two together, you get FASCISM!) When are the people going to demand a return to constitutional government.

[edblysard]

Funny, the last time I was in the Soviet Union, all the trains ran on time.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Flammable Weenies??????????

[croteaudd]

Some have wondered about a ‘salvation from what?’

The original post mentioned “the very dysfunctional nature of economics” being “a contributing factor to [government or civilization] collapses.” It also brought up a divisive polarization of people because of a “mathematical impossible” environment. The simple fact is that no money system has ever worked LONG TERM, but they eventually cause a nosedive socially and then self-destruct.

The fact that, in the United States, (1) there are only four big railroads left from numerous mergers, (2) railroads are ever attempting to be more efficient, and that (3) labor is so helplessly disillusioned over losing so many jobs to necessary streamlining, all gives evidence of the self-destructive phenomena in process.

As an optimist, I believe railroads could be a great stimulus to the national economy, and hold off the inevitable. I suggest looking at the tremendous waste of time railroads are notorious for. Forum readers can go to any railroad yard and see hardly anything move. It is not only the time tied up in the railroad’s equipment that is being wasted, but also the time tied up in customer’s shipments too. I perceive THAT as a hidden, untapped potential just waiting to be exploited, and such exploitation could have a very positive affect on the national economy, and hinder the bad forces of the inevitable.

It is hoped the above conveys a satisfying answer to ‘saved from what?’

[edblysard]

Not really. I dont know what railroad you were looking at and when you looked, but my yard holds about 1500 cars, and we empty it out every 24 hours. As for monetary systems, ours has evolved also, we are slowly going to a paperless socicity with debit cards instead of cash. If you mean return to a real gold standard, not this planet. If by efficent, you mean employing less people, then you never worked on a railroad. They have cut personal to the bare bones, and now work the extra board or pool services to exhaustion. If you referr to remote control, as soon as you really are happy with a unmanned locomotive going through the grade crossing where your child crosses to go to school, or your wife uses on her way to work, we sould talk. I think you missed one point, the railway express agency is dead, and for a good reason, its economically unsound to attempt that type of railroading, we are best suited to moving huge amounts of product, be it people, truck trailers or coal over great distances. Its not our equipment, most cars are leassed, and at some point you have to wait untill you have enought cars to make a train up that will economically pay for itself in volume of goods moved vs cost of moving them. Yes, unions are pissed that we now are losing even more jobs, working longer hours, with less time off, like 12 on, 8 off, for months at a time. How effecient is it to employee zombies? You never explained what you intended to do or how you intended to move those idle cars or their contents. And last time I checked, 10 dimes still equaled a dollar, which still seemes to be holding its own fairly well in the world economey, so what mathmatically impossible system are you speaking of? If you mean spend more and earn less, thats not impossible, just look a enron, SP, or my wifes checkbook. You seemed to have used a jumble of catch phrases garnered form a few magazine atricles to say in essence, america is broke, we dont know what we are going to do about it, unions are a waste of time, and you have the solution. Try open, plain english next time, really say what you mean, and then offer solution, instead of hyped up mumbo jumbo. I still cant find what you think America needs to be saved from, except maby extremly verbose fourm postings. Then again, we could always ask Donald Rumsfeld, that cat has wanted to blow up the middle east for about twenty years, and nothing is better for a sluggish economy that a really quick, profitable war.
Ed

[edblysard]

Ask Sooblue, he can clue you in.
Ed

[Anonymous]

It is the overtly liberal mentality that destroyed Rome, and is the same thing destroying this country.

Is it ok to be this thing we call Roman? Or is there some "higher calling we've somehow overlooked?

Perhaps it's better to prioritize the needs of a poverty stricken youth in Honduras to migrate illegally to the US and be educated at the expense of the US taxpayer than are the priorities of the US taxpayer theirownselves?

The loss you feel is sponsored by "the wimp network" repleat with their "weak is chic" campaign buttons.

Sure, what we really need to do is open our borders more widely, so that we can get all the worlds problems here so that we may solve them, sure.

How many people can you feed adequately merely by slicing the pizza more finely?.

May I count on your vote?

[Anonymous]

Come on guys, its ONLY TRAINS! Lightin up. Have some fun with it, its a hobby!

[edblysard]

Didnt you notice, I am having fun. I think, well, maby, uhhh, heck if I know.
Ed

[Anonymous]

I'm still confused about flammable weenies.......

[Anonymous]

The Roman Empire was not a liberal one. Like any other empirical power, it was built on oppression. Admitted, the Romans left their subjects with roads, clean water and drainage systems, domestic heating etc., but this was offset by the persecution of anyone who refused to worship the emperor, and not to mention routine slavery.

Rome was destroyed from within, by internal politics and wrangling. Back-biting and whispering between people with their own interests at heart. Ultimately, the empire was relinquished as a secondary importance.

You do raise a valid point though, one that is commonplace amongst most Western nations; ie. Should we not look after ourselves first and foremost, rather than increasingly distributing our wealth to 'economic migrants'? Somewhere back in the politically correct '90's I think we got so worried about appeasing anyone from a minority that we started to forget about the silent majority.

By the way, I'm no racist or nothin', I just think we should be looking after ourselves first and foremost, the way the Romans would of done.

[edblysard]

Hi Phantom,
From a immigrant's grandson's point of view, who exactly are "us" and "them". Unless you are a native american, and theres lots of doubt about what a "native american" is, all of us at some point in time were immigrants. If you come here illegaly, you should expect to be deported. If, on the other hand, you migrate here legaly, become a citizen, then should't americas laws, americas prosperity be yours to share? Grampa left "there" to come "here" because there he was treated like a criminal because of his religion.
Here, he could work, buy a home(farm) pay taxes, and vote. He never refered to himself as a german-american, he was deeply proud to be able to call himself an American. He refused to teach us german, insisting we speak english, although his english was poor. But, I do agree we need to give preference to domistic concerns first, then worry about the rest of the world. But we did declare ourselves the worlds policemen, so we do bear some burden in keeping the worlds house in order.
Ed

[croteaudd]

To Ed (and any hostile parties) regarding 1-28-03 10:37 a.m. sub-posting:

I am sorry some apparently feel I have horns and a red tail. The posted topic is a serious one. Innumerable BOOKS have been written on economics. But, in just one single paragraph, the original post attempted to epitomize reality in an economic light, and offered hope in railroading. My vision holds that rail management and ALL rail labor within a corporation COULD have exception peace and financial security through uniting over the knowledge of how economics works, and also bring prosperity to the country as a whole. Those that feel otherwise may want to read a few good volumes on economics, and see if they can discern anything encouraging. You may even want to attempt a single paragraph essay yourself comprising the essence of reality, and see how others may view it.

THE FOLLOWING SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSES RAISED CONCERNS:

“10 dimes still equals a dollar”: true, but because of inflation, the VALUE of dimes has diminished dramatically.

“What mathematically impossible system”: It is generally accepted that reverse-, no-, and high-inflation is bad. A small amount is believed ideal. But, ANY inflation steals monetary value from society. That is why counterfeiting money is illegal. The expression “mathematical impossible” is used because nothing monetarily works without causing negative side affects to someone somewhere in the stream of time, just like counterfeiting money does.

“Still can’t find what you think America needs to be saved from”: inflation and its long-term suicidal social impact (i.e., fellowmen fighting each other) leading to national oblivion. With different logistical operating perspectives, railroads can make a valuable contribution towards the longevity of America, and counteract the negative “mathematical impossible” phenomena that promotes the demise of America. I believe people desire longevity for America.

“America is broke”: hardly. I’m suggesting positive actions to keep it very viable.

“Unions are a waste of time”: Unions make valuable contributions in the workplace. But, to avoid polarizations, I suggest a more productive way, namely, that both management and unionized labor sit on the SAME side of the table and mutually work against the affects of the dark side of economics.

“You never explained … how you intended to move those idle cars”: Sorry, that is confidential, and involves “dazzled” patent attorneys.

As with a 500-piece table puzzle, economics and railroading can be overwhelming. But, through comprehending and seeing how many little pieces fit together, a great picture surfaces and becomes obvious. That kind of experience inspired the original post.

Best wishes, Ed. I know you will work safely and stay alive. Happy railroading. To everyone else, have a great day!

[edblysard]

Not red tailed, nor hostile, just seeing if you would put it in plain english. Remember, I am a railroader, I have to look up words with more than two syllables, and thank god this thing comes with spellcheck.
The following addreeses specifically answered questions,
"ten dimes = a dollar" true but because of inflation...I noticed you didnt reccomend we buy euros or yen, so I'll stick with a buck.
"mathematically impossible" agreed, but the system is designed to be fluid, and swings both way, frequently, as a result of our free enterprise. Anything else would be stagnant and static, both not good.
"Cant find what Americe needs..." inflation is part of how it all works. It can drive people to have great inventions, and often forces people to do things and sacrifice things the normaly wouldnt..it can alter everything, and was expected to do so by the founding fathers. Anything else would be a form of goverment managed economy, and you see how well that worked for the Soviets. As to Unions and Management sitting down together, if you really saw how the process worked, you laugh yourself silly. They do more that sit down on the same side of the table together, belive me.
"You never explained how..."good luck, but remember, most unions have excluisive rights to move cars on their carriers track, so unless you can unload them where they sit, a railroader will still have to move the car for you. If I see our MOW guys shove a gondola around with their front end loader, I write down the car number, and turn in a time claim for a days wages, because they are doing my job, one for which I have the exclusive right to perform. If they see me tamping ballast, the would do the same.
Yes, there are a lot of parts to the puzzle, and the end picture is often not what one would expect, but given whats in the rest of the worlds systems, and how harsh it really can get for those unlucky enought to not live in America, I think I'll take our flawed and unbalanced system any old day. Keep in mind our old friend inertia is going to try to keep both sides of the union labor/ management struggle, (I tried to keep a straight face typing that) right where they are.
I wasnt mad, upset of po'ed, just needed it stated in language the verbaly challanged could understand, and trying to have a little fun in the process, which I guess didnt work all that well.
You stay safe yourself, hope you can make whatever dazzled your attorney fly, good luck with it. Thats sincere, by the way.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

By the way, I have a really good farrier who shoes our horses, he can dock that tail and clip them horns, if you need him to.
Ha Ha?
Ed

[Mookie]

Ed - hmmm - a railroader, with a farrier, and a command of the English language that would put a lot of college students to shame...are you sure you aren't a red herring and you really work for trains.com?

Mookie

[edblysard]

Not that lucky, Mookie,
Worked for the Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas, in the child support division, special locate section. Hunted deadbeat dads, and more deadbeat moms than most people realize. Now a engine foreman/switchman foreman at the Port Terminal railroad Assoication, in Houston, Texas. Gave up a career for a life. Rode with the 4th U.S. Calvery, A Troop, in San Antonio, Texas, when I was younger. Still have the horses. Avid reader, and trying to pass that along to my daughters, the oldest thinks if it isnt on tv, it isnt real entertainment. Shame, she misses out on so much. My 9 year old likes to read, though. She gets my copies of trains when I am through with them. Says she wants to be an engineer. I told her after college, if she still thinks that way, fine by me. Hope she follows her first "I want to be ...when I grow up", and becomes a vet. She read "All Creatures Great and Small" last year, got her the other books, she devoured them. One out of three isnt bad.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Mookie, It really isn't too hard to put a lot of college kids to shame today, considering the state of education. While I've never met him, Ed is a Railroader/Philosopher type. I've known quite a few of them up here; some of whom have had very little formal education. Although that isn't Ed's situation.