The Great Northern Railroad

[VerMontanan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

This is a Great Northern thread. I read somewhere that your dad was a GN engineer? If so, where did he run? Along shot-was he based out of Breckenridge MN?

Thanks

No, my Dad was a telegrapher. He went to telegrapher's school in Superior, Wisconsin. Most of the work for all the railroads in that area were seasonal because things pretty much shut down when the lake froze over. So, he went where he could get a steady job: Montana.

[VerMontanan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

VerMontanan: Please don't turn this post into a flame-a-thon. I've read every post you've written in a long time. You seem to have quite a bit to add to this and other posts. All that turns to naught when the posts turn nasty. You're better than that. And don't start with "he started it" Move on
Thanks

You're absolutely right, and I apologize for previous post. When I received two Emails off list stating that I was getting as low as some of the others who post on this thread, that was a wake up call. Thanks for pointing it out.

[VerMontanan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol
The Reader will note here that the "favorable" grade argument has been abandoned -- because the Bieber line has an unfavorable grade that Mr. Meyer has not heretofore listed in his lengthy comparisons. Wonder why? However, he clearly abandons the "grade" theory in favor of the "reality" that the line is used..

I never claimed that the Inside Gateway was favorable to any other (actually there is only one other) alternate route. The statement was merely a response to Mr. Sol's acquaintence who said " Look at the Bieber line. It should have never been built. It's ridiculous." Since the nearby UP (ex-SP) route is at capacity and that the BNSF route carries a heavy amount of traffic, it is obvious that the route is needed. A superior grade is not the only reason to keep a route in place. I agree with Mr. Sol that there are many factors that could make a route worthwhile. In the case of former Great Northern lines, it seems that many fit this category, and by route mileage remaining, a greater percentage than its competitors.

[randyaj]

No, the GN, if I remember correctly, only skirted the edge of Iowa. I was born and raised on a ranch on the plains of Montana, about 30 miles north of Culbertson, along the old GN branchline that extended then from Bainville through Plentywood. I had the privilage of riding the Empire Builder in the late 60's through Glacier while it was still GN, abeit Big Sky blue, rather than the orange and green that I favor. I now live near Des Moines and am relagated to watching the UP instead.
[#oops]
Randy Johnson

[Murphy Siding]

Randy: Where at on the GN? Somewhere in Iowa?

[randyaj]

As a rare visitor to the Trains thread (normally on the MR threads) I find it more than highly amusing p***ing match that is going on here. I love the Great Northern was raised close to the tracks and model it today, but some of you guys need to get a real life! I love the suggestion about the new thread! How about Oh yea well so are you or I'm rubber and your glue and everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you. Come on guys this is supposed to be fun not character assualt.
Get a grip please
Randy Johnson
Iowa

[Murphy Siding]

Maybe *some of you guys* could start your own thread just to fight? Coul I suggest a title or two?:

Oh yea-yea! or.....

Your mother wears army boots!....

Either one would be about as interesting as reading the insult threads. Can we get past that please? ( Looking for smilie with rolling eyes)

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

nanaimo73: I got my care package from the library today: Main Lines and Merging Lines by Richard Saunders. About 450 pages each and NO PICTURES![:O]. Looks like I have my work cut out for me. Being an analizer type, this looks like fun.[:D]. And to think that I laugh at the kids for reading Harry Potter! Thanks for the reccomendation.

I didn't say to get both at the same time !
I guess your three boys will miss you the next three weeks.

Mark and Michael,
did you guys not see this ?

I'm locking this thread due to the actions of certain members. Please, try to keep things civil, gentlemen.

Bergie

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by VerMontanan
[brAs for the Bieber line being "ridiculous", this is pretty much proven incorrect (again, I hate to interject reality) by today's operation of the line. The route averages eight trains daily, and is a vital alternative to the only other route available, the UP (ex-SP). Delays to trains (Amtrak's Coast Starlight is a prime example) along the ex-SP route are legendary, so without this alternative GN-built route, it's difficult to see how this additional traffic could be accommodated. Actually, the major limiting factor for the Bieber line, more commonly known as the Inside Gateway, is the UP (ex-WP) south of Keddie, where BNSF trains join UP traffic to and from Salt Lake City/Ogden and east. But even in GN and BN days, this route often fielded three trains daily in each direction (in GN days, run through between GN, WP, and ATSF).

The Reader will note here that the "favorable" grade argument has been abandoned -- because the Bieber line has an unfavorable grade that Mr. Meyer has not heretofore listed in his lengthy comparisons. Wonder why? However, he clearly abandons the "grade" theory in favor of the "reality" that the line is used..

Upon this basis, of course, the NP was clearly a superior road and should have survived because it carried more carloadings transcontinental.

Revenue dictates survival, not single cost drivers. Politics dictates survival. Sometimes inexplicable things happen in the historical record. The simplistic "grade" theory has little relevance to economic reality because too many factors are involved for simplistic notions of predictibility.

The sudden abandonment of the theory in order to explain the survival of the Bieber line is Exhibit "A."

Best regards, Michael Sol

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: VermontnananThanks to Mr. Sol for providing the groundwork for the establishment of the Milwaukee route’s superiority. Could things have possibly turned out any different?

As usual, the need to compare a rail line today with another 50 years ago in order to get the results Mark Meyer wishes, is simply breathtaking, as is Meyer's confession that the GN can only be portrayed favorably by reaching to different years under different management as part of a different railroad.

This GN obsession isn't limited to Milwaukee, which Meyer oddly perceives as some sort of personal threat. See: http://www.gngoat.org/gn-np.htm "A GN - NP Comparison by Mark Meyer."

There, you will find the same obsession, different railroad, the Northern Pacific. The same stunning, rambling, bizarre attack on a railroad that dared to operate in Great Northern territory.

There, you will find "the text presented is meant to be largely objective based on written documentation or known factual material....with some sarcasm, thrown in.... "

And you will see that Meyer claims that "It is my opinion that many fans of the Northern Pacific either suffer from an inferiority complex or take themselves too seriously."

When you are done reading that piece, and its perplexing attack on a railroad and even a gratuitous attack on its railfans, you will understand the man.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

The Bitterroots are a range of mountians that are part of the Rockies. They form a portion of the border between Idaho and Montana. The "South Bank" of the Clark Fork River.

The Continental Divide is in the Rockies. Wanders all over the place, but drainage to the East goes to the Atlantic (actually, the Gulf of Mexico) and West into the Pacific. You will need a map to show you the actual location of the Divide since it meanders worse than a snakes snake.

Now, think about this. The Columbia River, which drains about 3/4ths of the US Pacific Northwest, slices a HUGE gap right through the Cascade Mountains. No Continental Divide there. (grin)

Bonjour y'all! I'm just catching up to this discussion thread. I'm impressed with the effort and passion that has been put in to some of the responses.

Just to point out to some of you folks down south, the Columbia River originates in Canada and drains a good part of British Columbia before entering the US. Also to note that the Continental Divide extends into Canada and does not stop at the 49th parallel, the Canadian/US border at that longitude. On the eastern side of the Divide, waters of the North Saskatchewan river, make their way eventually to Hudson's Bay and ultimately the Atlantic.

One of the contributors to this thread obviously has a Canadian connection. I see in his profile photo that he is cuddling a woman about my age on board a train, while looking over a cake decorated with the Canadian flag that is also flanked by Maple Leaf flags.

Keep this thread going guys! I'm enjoying learning more about both the Great Northern and the Milwaukee Road whatever your point of view. Both have been of interest since I was a kid.

[:)]

OK ,I gotta ask. The Grizzly Bear Northern is the name of your HO rail line? I was reading your profile and taking it all in, when I noticed Isambard,Kingdom, and Brunel all in the same paragraph! [;)] Made me think about all the code words of D-Day that showed up in a British newspaper crossword puzzle, just before D-Day.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

The Bitterroots are a range of mountians that are part of the Rockies. They form a portion of the border between Idaho and Montana. The "South Bank" of the Clark Fork River.

The Continental Divide is in the Rockies. Wanders all over the place, but drainage to the East goes to the Atlantic (actually, the Gulf of Mexico) and West into the Pacific. You will need a map to show you the actual location of the Divide since it meanders worse than a snakes snake.

Now, think about this. The Columbia River, which drains about 3/4ths of the US Pacific Northwest, slices a HUGE gap right through the Cascade Mountains. No Continental Divide there. (grin)

Bonjour y'all! I'm just catching up to this discussion thread. I'm impressed with the effort and passion that has been put in to some of the responses.

Just to point out to some of you folks down south, the Columbia River originates in Canada and drains a good part of British Columbia before entering the US. Also to note that the Continental Divide extends into Canada and does not stop at the 49th parallel, the Canadian/US border at that longitude. On the eastern side of the Divide, waters of the North Saskatchewan river, make their way eventually to Hudson's Bay and ultimately the Atlantic.

One of the contributors to this thread obviously has a Canadian connection. I see in his profile photo that he is cuddling a woman about my age on board a train, while looking over a cake decorated with the Canadian flag that is also flanked by Maple Leaf flags.

Keep this thread going guys! I'm enjoying learning more about both the Great Northern and the Milwaukee Road whatever your point of view. Both have been of interest since I was a kid.

[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

nanaimo73: I got my care package from the library today: Main Lines and Merging Lines by Richard Saunders. About 450 pages each and NO PICTURES![:O]. Looks like I have my work cut out for me. Being an analizer type, this looks like fun.[:D]. And to think that I laugh at the kids for reading Harry Potter! Thanks for the reccomendation.

[Anonymous]

(Note to Murphy - this is not a return flame, but a point of contention)

VM - What is it about the term "subjective observation" that you don't understand? It is my opinion that without Marias Pass, the GN would have gone the way of other fallen flags long before the BN merger saved their bacon. It is a statement which doesn't require "documentation", such is the freedom of a subjective observation. This is unlike statements regarding the degree of gradient, or which railroad had the greatest percentage of container traffic out of Puget Sound in the 1970's, statements which are totally dependent on factual reference.

I do believe that you are a sick individual in need of psychological help, again my opinion, but one in which I can provide references if you so desire.

Again, my apologies to Murphy and the rest of you who are tired of flame-a-thons, but it is also my opinion that VM has a high degree of probability to **** on every thread which has statements about public entities that personally offend him. I don't know why such statements personally offend him, but they do.

[Murphy Siding]

VerMontanan: Please don't turn this post into a flame-a-thon. I've read every post you've written in a long time. You seem to have quite a bit to add to this and other posts. All that turns to naught when the posts turn nasty. You're better than that. And don't start with "he started it" Move on

This is a Great Northern thread. I read somewhere that your dad was a GN engineer? If so, where did he run? Along shot-was he based out of Breckenridge MN?

Thanks

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

The Bitterroots are a range of mountians that are part of the Rockies. They form a portion of the border between Idaho and Montana. The "South Bank" of the Clark Fork River.

The Continental Divide is in the Rockies. Wanders all over the place, but drainage to the East goes to the Atlantic (actually, the Gulf of Mexico) and West into the Pacific. You will need a map to show you the actual location of the Divide since it meanders worse than a snakes snake.

Now, think about this. The Columbia River, which drains about 3/4ths of the US Pacific Northwest, slices a HUGE gap right through the Cascade Mountains. No Continental Divide there. (grin)

[VerMontanan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo
[

In another post, Mr. Meyer stated something to the effect that it was a dishonor to his father not to hold and to defend the GN as superior. I don't understand that, but that is OK by me.

It would be very nice if we could return to learning and exchanging information.

Actually, if you check this out, you will see that Mr. Sol said I said this. As usually the case, what I said and what Mr. Sol says I said can be very different.

[VerMontanan]

[.

[VerMontanan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Mark Meyer: So what you're saying is that those posts which do not provide specific documentation regarding a subjective observation are without merit?

Then I guess none of your posts have ever had merit.

You are clearly a lunatic to be so defensive about the Goat Trail. You clearly need psychological counseling.

Dave,

Your namecalling is so YOU. Kind of reminds me of your "drinking Kool-Aid" statements in past threads for those that didn't agree with you. But as for the specific documentation you say I don't provide, check out page 12 of the Milwaukee Road thread which I specifically state the grades and the tonnage ratings on the respective routes. You, on the other hand will not provide documentation to your claim that without Marias Pass the GN would be inferior to the other railroads. Since you're never shy about making a post, I will assume that you do not do so because your position is simply not true.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

PNWRNMN is correct about NLV, and MURPHY SIDING also is correct in stating that there is still actual value to the line.

I did not make a very good statement saying that the asset had been written off as of zero value. What I was attempting to say was that the value (or usability) of the line to the owning company was zero. They had no more use for it.

The fact that "objects of value", be they money or something else, "change hands", and in some way that satisfies all parties concerned, and that/those "objects of value" then represent the Net Liquidated Value.

I think I need a new shovel so that I can dig my way out of this hole!

For what it's worth- I'm not confused anymore! Thanks for the explanation.

[kenneo]

PNWRNMN is correct about NLV, and MURPHY SIDING also is correct in stating that there is still actual value to the line.

I did not make a very good statement saying that the asset had been written off as of zero value. What I was attempting to say was that the value (or usability) of the line to the owning company was zero. They had no more use for it.

The fact that "objects of value", be they money or something else, "change hands", and in some way that satisfies all parties concerned, and that/those "objects of value" then represent the Net Liquidated Value.

I think I need a new shovel so that I can dig my way out of this hole!

[Murphy Siding]

Thanks, now I understand. I can also see the point about the value not being zero. I would think it would at leadt be valued at the scrap value of the rails etc.,..

[PNWRMNM]

Keeno,

Disagree with your statement that pending an abandonment the asset is written down to zero. It should be written down to Net Liquidated Value, if NLV is less than book, but it is still worth NLV prior to abandoment, and would still be an asset on the owner's books

Mac

[kenneo]

Murph ---

This technique is often used to transfer ownership from one road to another where the owning road no longer has a need for the trackage.

Not too well know is a provision made by the ICC and retained by the STB that if more than one railroad is operating over a section of track, and the owning road files for and is granted abandonment for that section, the road(s) having operating rights over that section can file to gain ownership. The reason for this is so that one road can not sever the route of another road having operating rights over them.

Up for negotiation is what, if anything, the road having operating rights must pay for keeping the route. Usually it is not much to nothing since the owning road has just written down the trackage to be abandoned to zero and has listed it as a liability.

For example, when the SP wanted to abandon their Tillamook Branch, the shippers and State of Oregon put up such a fuss that SP granted operating rights to the POTB over the Tillamook Branch. After the POTB started running its trains, the SP ceased operation of trains. The first section was West of Batterson. After the POTB was able to operate over the hill, the section East of Batterson was added. After the end of two years of no SP train operating over the trackage, the SP could (and did) file for abandonment and it was granted to them quickly. The POTB continued to operate over the track in question through their trackage rights agreement. The SP, POTB and Oregon DOT negotiated a money arrangement and in due course, the SP transferred the deed to the POTB.

[PNWRMNM]

Murphy.

The NP had no further use for the South Bank line below Portland but the SP&S did, it was by then part of their line to Astoria. No reason to be confused.

I suspect there were some bookkeeping entries made but doubt tne NP got any cash for it.

Mac

[Murphy Siding]

Confused doesn't scratch the surface for me![%-)][:O]. The NP abandoned their their trackage on the South Bank, so it went to SPS because they were the current operating railroad? NP left, and said to SPS: here's the keys-it's yours?[%-)]

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73
This is an outstanding place to railfan. I think Kenneo lives there or close by and enjoys railfanning there.

Yes, I do. A wee bit West of Portland, on the "A" Line.

This is the far, wee end of NP's transcontinental mainline until about 1905 when the Willamette and Columbia draws between Portland and Vancouver were completed. The line was then relocated to the North Bank between the ferry at Kalama and Willbridge.

The South Bank (original) line became the "A" line between Willbridge (Portland) and Astoria, Warrenton and Seaside and ownership was transferred from the NP to the SPS

Why would they transfer ownership from NP to SPS? I thought NP & GN each owned 50% of SPS. What would be the reason to change ownership?

Horizontal transfer of ownership. When the NP closed the ferry at Kalama and started operating via Vancouver, they owned only a section of the new line. The UP already had some of the line built, and then the SPS built from Vancouver to Lake Yard and from there, the NP operated into Portland on the NPT (Northern Pacific Terminal Company). The NPT still exists as a thriving terminal company and originates trains for the UP and the BNSF. They renamed themselves, but it still is the same operation, now independent of the BNSF.

SPS had a line from the ferry slip on the South Bank of the Columbia oposite of Kalama to the coast at Astoria with branches to Warrenton and Seaside. When the NP abandoned their trackage on the South Bank due to its orphaned status, the SPS had operating rights over it so that they could operate their Astoria ("A" Line) Branch which caused the ownership of the right-of-way to pass to the then operating railroad, the SPS.

Confused?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73
This is an outstanding place to railfan. I think Kenneo lives there or close by and enjoys railfanning there.

Yes, I do. A wee bit West of Portland, on the "A" Line.

This is the far, wee end of NP's transcontinental mainline until about 1905 when the Willamette and Columbia draws between Portland and Vancouver were completed. The line was then relocated to the North Bank between the ferry at Kalama and Willbridge.

The South Bank (original) line became the "A" line between Willbridge (Portland) and Astoria, Warrenton and Seaside and ownership was transferred from the NP to the SPS

Why would they transfer ownership from NP to SPS? I thought NP & GN each owned 50% of SPS. What would be the reason to change ownership?

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73
This is an outstanding place to railfan. I think Kenneo lives there or close by and enjoys railfanning there.

Yes, I do. A wee bit West of Portland, on the "A" Line.

This is the far, wee end of NP's transcontinental mainline until about 1905 when the Willamette and Columbia draws between Portland and Vancouver were completed. The line was then relocated to the North Bank between the ferry at Kalama and Willbridge.

The South Bank (original) line became the "A" line between Willbridge (Portland) and Astoria, Warrenton and Seaside and ownership was transferred from the NP to the SPS

[Murphy Siding]

I'm reading "When the Steam Railroads Electrified". The book mentions that a common practice , during WW 2, to get really heavy trains through the Cascade Tunnel, GN would put 3 big GE electric locomotive on the point, a 4-unit FT diesel as mid-train helper, and a 2-8-8-2 steam pusher on the back of the caboose. Now that's a train I would've wanted to see![:D].