NS pays $1.28/ gallon for diesel...

[mackb4]

Like I mentioned.On some of the other lines that I do not work for,I have seen the sticker as mentioned.I don't agree with those companies policy of saying less dyn.brk. is fuel savings.If you are familar with using the air brakes (auto brake) as I am (I'm an engineer on the NS) you will understand that using the air brakes is a much more effective way of stopping a train without using the dyn.brk.But most RR's air brake equipment is not up to snuff to do this with all trains.Our NS1 (NS's RR Bible)states the first priority of brake is dyn.brk.Then they got this funky percentage of how many cars your to make a running release on your brakes (125 is the max).We run big trains on the Poca.and just about anytime you use your air it's to come to a complete stop.And the only way to bunch up slack is to use dyn.brk.It is forbidden on the NS to use the train brake (independent) to bunch up slack,unless in a yard situation.It can cause bad problems behind the engine if you do that.A roadformen told me once the three things they looked for in a derailment are 1.speed 2.switches lined correctly 3.if the engineer used the indep.brk. at the moment of the derailment.The FRA has experimented in the last few years with electric brakes on the cars.This may work,but would be a great expense for the RR's to change over to.

[Murphy Siding]

oltmannd: Therein lies my quandry. The earlier post from mackb4 made it sound like some railroads were suggesting NOT using the dynamic brakes as a way to conserve fuel. You're saying the opposite? I tend to agree with your explanation.

[oltmannd]

Braking that turns KE into heat is equally inefficient. It's the whole braking scenario that generally causes DB to use less fuel than using the automatic.

When you use the DB, you have to bunch up the slack and then go to DB. When you are doing this, you're not making any traction power.

Dyn braking is not capable of providing as great an amount of braking forse as the automatic brake - it only applies to the locomotive wheels vs. every wheel on the train, so generally, using DB will mean starting to slow down sooner than if you just used the automatic brake.

Also, a common technique for smooth train handling is stretch braking - sort of like stepping on the gas and brake on your car at the same time.

So, using DB instead of the air brake generally results in lower fuel consumption.

[mackb4]

I asked the fuel truck driver Saturday morning and the diesel is a ruby color now.But it sure is dark in the site glass when you prime the motor to start.Maybe dirty filters ?

[richardy]

I was surprised too. Since the dynamic power is being discharged as waste heat in the resistor grids why can't the locomotive builders operate the cooling fan motors from the dynamic power? It seems that would use some of the wasted dynamic power reducing heat in the grids and let the prime mover idle.

[mackb4]

Well that's the thing I was a wondering too.I know when you go to dyn.brake your pushing most of the current from the traction motors thru the dyn. brake grids, which is the "jet like"sound you hear when a loco. is in dyn.brake (most units have three grids) .The only thing I can think of is when the aux/gen is being charged to turn the cooling fans that cools the grids down,the diesel is powering up to run the aux/gen.Again someone behind a desk thinking hard to save every penny.

[Murphy Siding]

mackb4: How would use of dynamic brakes affect fuel useage?

[tomnoy3]

The thing with fuel tax is that its used to pay for road repairs, and dot, and all of that. Becuase railroads and farmers dont use public roads, why should they have to pay for repairs on it? So ruby diesel, which is the tax-free, has a redi***int to distinguisd itself from its taxed counterpart. If you were to get caught driving down I-90 in your Chevy 2500 or Freightliner Century with ruby diesel in your tank, its atleast a $1000 fine.

-Tom

[mackb4]

I know we normally run out of Williamson ,Wva to Portsmouth,Ohio with 2 Big Jacks (mostly 2 GE Dash 8,s or 9's) and anywhere from 160 to 250 loads of coal.It is 112 mile at a fairly level grade.Pulling 16,000 to 2?,??? odd tons for around 4.5 to 5 hrs.if it's a straight shot train (and weighing the train at Prichard scales in which you pull along less than 8 mph) I have noticed when I have a working fuel gauge,a motor consumes around 300 gallons during the trip.That would be around 600 gallons for the two units.I've also noticed lately some of the other RR's units having stickers saying to keep the engine out of dynamic brake to conserve fuel.I don't know how much fuel that would factor in ,but one things for sure,RR's are full of pencil pushers !

[dwil89]

From a Locomotive Fuel consumption chart....An SD40-2 uses 4.0 gal per hour at low idle...and 168 gal per hr at full load. An SD70M uses 3.0 gal per hour at low idle and 191 gal per hr at full load. An SD80MAC with 20 cylinders uses 3.6 gal an hr at idle and 237 gal per hour at full load. A Dash-9 would be comparable to a SD70M in consumption. Dave Williams @ [e-mail]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

oh yea..also..you have to keep in mind..that gas and diesel are not the same thing by a long shot.... gas is even more refind then disel fuel is..so it costs more to produce...
csx engineer

Due to the recent federal mandates to produce very low sulphur diesel fuels, the refining process can actually be more costly than for gasoline. I know the refineries had to install millions of $$ of equipment, and special hydrogen generators to feed the process.

The other kicker is that a lot of diesel is no longer created by the distallation process, but by using catalytic "crackers" to create the molcules they want. These are not as stable as the older diesels, and as a result the diesel can go "bad" in as little as 3 months after refining, and seldom will last more than 6 months.

Mark in Utah

[mackb4]

Railroads use a higher sulfer grade of fuel than most industries , thus the color of the fuel is a very dark brown.If it's a fuel of any type to my knowledge a tax has to be paid,business or civilian use.The NS had a contract for so many years to buy their fuel for $1.11 a gallon,the last time I saw any company memo.But that price may have expired.Something we have at the NS that I'm sure most RR's have is a "shut'em down "program.If a unit is to idle for more than 30 mins.it is to be shutdown.Now certain situations apply such as temp.,or if the train line air has to be maintained when the train is parked.Also certain exConrail units renumbered 6700's,will mess up the engine air brake computer if they are shutdown.A good one I read in the paper locally was that the public school's are considering curbing bus routes or stopping some all together.What's next ,will our kids have to pay a fair or use a token when they get on school buses?The fuel prices are hitting us all.What will it be like next year ?

[Murphy Siding]

oltmannd: I couldn't get the first link to work. The second link was interesting. It kind of sounded like the locomotive would *advise* to the engineer about running the train? I already have one of those for the car-my wife.[:I]

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Are the railroads doing anything diferently as o flate to conserve fuel, as this would have to be a big expensive drag on the bottom line. How about out on the road? Do they watch fuel *mileage*?

You bet! Generally, they track gross ton miles per gallon as the measure of "mileage".

You might want to read this, too.http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/application?pageid=Legacy&page=http%3A//www.nscorp.com/nscorphtml/releases03/leader.html

[oltmannd]

The RRs really started watching things after the 1974 crunch and doubled their efforts after the 1980 crunch. Since then, they've been working steadily on it - so there's nothing much new in recent months.

Some of the things RRs do to reduce fuel consumption:

-shut down idling units (including applying APUs, autostart, etc. to minimize idling time)
-reduce HP/ton ratings to lowest possible levels
-don't overpower trains
-purchase newer, more fuel efficient locomotives - retire older units
-put new locomotives in high utilization svc.
-minimize the use of stretch braking - maximize use of dyn brk.

Some things RRs do to minimize fuel cost are:

-Selectively fuel locomotives based on fuel cost.
-hedge fuel purchases

[Murphy Siding]

Are the railroads doing anything diferently as o flate to conserve fuel, as this would have to be a big expensive drag on the bottom line. How about out on the road? Do they watch fuel *mileage*?

[Paul Milenkovic]

This business of oil companies making obscene profits:

Oil companies are public stock corporations, and if a person thinks there is a killing to be made on oil, they can buy oil stock. We all get the news and know what is going on in the world, and that the price of fuel would be going up has been brewing for some time now.

Story I read in the financial press is that oil profits are up, and oil stocks are also up (should have bought low and sold high), but oil stocks are not really that high because people don't really believe that the oil prices are going to last. If people really believe that oil prices were going to last, not only would a person buy oil companies, a person could buy Ballard Power Systems (for fuel cells) or any of a whole bunch of energy-saving or alternate energy stocks.

But how many of you out there are going to bet real money on long-term high oil prices by buying any of those stocks? Its called free-market capitalism, and anyone can play, and yes the system is "rigged" by industry insiders, but if a person really believed in high oil prices in terms of putting some money down on that belief, there are a whole lot of investment opportunities.

[Anonymous]

No, I have never used the wrong color of diesel. In fact the only diesel I use is an occasional gallon to help start a fire. Do not use gasoline for this use as it is too explosive. I have read about people who have been nailed for using non highway fuels on the road. They diserve to be zapped. Working in the oil fields you can get "drip gas" that will run in a car. Your car will knock something terrible. I question if you have any valves remaining after using drip gas for a while. About the only way to stop the engine would be to pull up to a tree, put the car in gear, and let the clutch out until the engine stalled. Only fools would use drip gas in their car.

[adrianspeeder]

Yup, highway tax is the biggest difference between on and off road diesel. Even at that price, I wouldn't think of burnin off road diesel as I think the fine in PA is several thousand dollars.

Adrianspeeder

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrwatkins


We could do this for our lawn mowers, but do you want to go through all the trouble to find the non highway gasoline just to save a few cents? The opposite to this story is do not get caught using non highway colored fuel in your car or truck. You will quickly find out haw nasty the taxing authorities can be. By camparison the IRS is a push over.

Do you speak from experience here? [:0]

I ask someone who would know about the tax issue. He said the railroad does not pay a highway tax on its diesel fuel. He did say the railroad does pay other taxes on the fuel.

[Anonymous]

Diesel and gasoline is colored to identify non highway sales. A farmer or railroad will have a certain color of diesel or gasoline indicating that he is using the fuel that is exempt from highway use tax. We could do this for our lawn mowers, but do you want to go through all the trouble to find the non highway gasoline just to save a few cents? The opposite to this story is do not get caught using non highway colored fuel in your car or truck. You will quickly find out haw nasty the taxing authorities can be. By camparison the IRS is a push over.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

QUOTE: Originally posted by miniwyo

Do the RR's use the same Red diesel as they do in the Ag industry, or do they use commercial Blue/Green Diesel?

Railroad diesel fuel is a pinkish color.

I was under the impression that railroad DID pay taxes on their fuel.

For related into on diesel fuel, gas prices, and other such info check out this link.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13781

RRs don't pay highway tax, so they don't use the dyed, highway diesel fuel. They do pay a "deficit reduction" tax on fuel, but that is being dropped soon (or has it already?)

[Murphy Siding]

You used to be the guy that made up story problems for algebra tests?[:D]

[rrnut282]

Lets see, I used to do this for a living....
Jet A weighs 6.7 pounds per gallon. The DC9-30 would burn about 3400 pounds of fuel on a 150 mile flight with 100 on-board. That's 507 gallons or .05 gallons per passenger per mile. A 747 is roughly 6 times bigger in gross take-off weight, though it won't be 6 times as efficient. In csx engineer's example, fuel usage comes out to .00075 gallons per ton-mile. Cars, trucks, or even buses cannot come anywhere close to those efficiencies. So their costs will be higher.
Taxes only make the situation worse.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by danhonn

[:0]As an addition to my reply, I remember reading that to go from Hawaii to California, a Boeing 747 burns enough fuel to drive the average car for a year. How's that for fuel economy? Let's see....my 2001 Dodge Ram is getting 20 to a gallon....how far could it go on that much fuel? I also remember an article on the Frisco 1500s that said they could get 4 miles to a gallon of bunker c oil. How does that compare to a Dash-9 or SD-90?

danny [e-mail]

have to keep in mind that a 747 is also carrring around 300 or so people ( idont remember the extact amouth of passanger that it can carry fully loaded) as well as crew and baggage... and whats the most you can fit in your truck? maybe 5.... so figer that if it was possable for all the people to drive to hawaii... that would be 300+ times the fuel costs... in gas for each persons car... also a truck is not the "average" they get less per mile then cars....
also... they dont rate locomotives on miles per gallon ...its gallons per hour used... i never did the math to find out how what the MPG was on my run..but on a 98 mile run with 2 -9s..pulling 130 loads of coal..toping out at around 16000 tons..it took about 600 gallons per unit to get me over the road... that was running at almost notch 8 the whole way... at an average speed of somewhere between 25 and 50 mph... slow orders not counting...
csx engineer

[miniwyo]

The difference betewwn red and green diesel is that green is what you get from the pump at the gas station for you Big Rig or for your Dodge Cumins turbodiesel (in Adrian's case his Power stroke, or is it power smoke [:)]) and Red diesel is for use in like Construction and Farm type equipment.(and RRs too) You can get in really big trouble running red diesel in a personal vehicle. As said before Green diesel is taxed, Red isnt taxed as much.

[markn]

Maybe I am confused-but the tax we pay on gas is a "user fee" for the highway/upkeep" etc-the railroads "basically" pay for their own right of way/tracks/upkeep etc and pay property tax on the land to boot-now this flys in the face of railroad retirement having a special income tax situation because , I beleive, Harry Truman had to bite the bullet in the early 50's to break a strike make special compromise to get the union and company to go back to work and like the S & L deal in the 80's, we the people are eating it--sorry I digressed but hey just tell me what I am paying for/my fair share-I'll pay it- don't roll it and hide 6 other not related programs in it. MTCW

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

QUOTE: Originally posted by miniwyo

Do the RR's use the same Red diesel as they do in the Ag industry, or do they use commercial Blue/Green Diesel?

Railroad diesel fuel is a pinkish color.

I was under the impression that railroad DID pay taxes on their fuel.

Depending on the state they may pay some sales tax but not the road use tax which is the big one, the blue/green diesel. Here the railroads get the same fuel I use for my generators, it seems more red than pink but some people have a slighty different color vision. The fuel guys that sell it to me refer to it as red or green.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by miniwyo

Do the RR's use the same Red diesel as they do in the Ag industry, or do they use commercial Blue/Green Diesel?

Railroad diesel fuel is a pinkish color.

I was under the impression that railroad DID pay taxes on their fuel.

For related into on diesel fuel, gas prices, and other such info check out this link.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13781