pulling rank..

[cabforward]

in differences between cond. and hogger on the road or in customer switching, does the cond. get the last word? if there is uncertainty about handling a situation, is there always a radio to call for a ruling? does the chain-of-command mandate only certain crew members can call for assistance in deciding a close issue over train movements, blocking? who arbitrates these questions, if they go beyond the immediate crew? the dispatcher or roadmaster? these would be incidents at the worst time: nightime, weekends, holidays.

[edblysard]

Hi Train,
Ok, its sorta weird, but the conductor is in charge of the train, ultimatly, his is the final word on what is done and how it is done, but, if what he is proposing breaks an opperating rule or a safety rule, and he insists on following that course of action, then either the engineer or helper/ brakeman has every right to call a trainmaster, who is their immediate superior officer.. The conductor is ultimatly responsably for the train and the job, and how both peform. His job is to making sure the consist conforms to the hazmat rules, is blocked correctly, is in order of the train sheet, and the paperwork is correct and in order. He also decides what is to be done, and what order it is done in. The engineer is in charge of how the train is handeled, okaying the locomotive for service, okaying the air brake test, and obeying the signals system. The GCOR requires the engineer and at least on other crew mwmber to both observe and call out to each other the aspect and indication of signals, and for the other to acknowledge such. He has the right to question, and in some instances a duty to question the conductor as to the makeup of the train. Both share joint responsibility for all the safety rules being followed, and both he and the helper/brakeman can refuse any order that places them in danger. You will find that most conductors, contrary to the tall stories you hear, often listen to an engineers advice, due in a large part to the fact the the engineer has been there and done that before, so he has a good idea of what needs to be done, and often the fastest and safest way to accompli***he job. I work at a terminal road, where we all know each other, and have worked together often. I would imagine that at most divisions, on class 1 roads, most of the crews know each other also, and develope working relationships and habits based upon their knowledge of each others strengths and weaknesses. If a disagreement does occur, the the next in the chain of command is the trainmaster. His decision on any issue is not open for immediate debate, although he too can not order you to break a safety rule. If you dont agree with him, you do what he ordered, but file a grievance thru your local union chairman asking for a ruling on the issue. A safety committee would rule upon issues of safty, but on operational problems, the superintendent has the final word. As to calling for a ruling when a disagreement occurs, its not done very often. The conductor has the last word, it his job to make those decisions. As long as what he wants to do does not violate and of the rules, or put another crew member in danger, its his call. Running a train can not be done democraticly, but often, when the conductor is being hardheaded, the engineer will let him go ahead and do it the hard way, just to teach him a lesson. It only takes once or twice of running yourself ragged before you realize that the engineer is a very good source of information and can often save you many unnecssary moves.
Besides, if you have to call a trainmaster all the time to settle your disagreements, you will be labled a crybaby, and lose the respect of the other crews. Once that happens, it very hard to get anything accomplished, because you no longer have the authority to give orders, and expect them to be followed.
Hope this helps, and I am sure there will be a few more answers, all diffrent..
Ed

[wabash1]

Good answer ed. but i only disagree with pert of it. As the engineer I am resposible for the engines and safe movements of the train. That dont mean i aint respinsible for the rest of the crew. Yes the conductor is resposible and is in charge of the train. but when it comes to the last word most generally the conductor makes the call and engineers usually will do as you say. but if i think a move is to dangerous ( holding on to tonnage ) where i cant maintain good control of the train . then i wont move and i have that right. It dont happen very often and most crews work very well together. but there is times when the engineer can feel what is going on and will request the conductor to put air on the cut. and conductors are reluctant to do this. yes they want to save time but. what takes longer putting air on the cut or filling out the paper work for going thru a customers wall. other wise everything you said is right on.

[Anonymous]

The customers will certainly agree with your last sentence. gdc

[edblysard]

Sorry wabash, I thought I mentioned that part, but yeah, if you as a engineer dont think it safe or know its not within the rules, you have every right to refuse. And I didnt mention about the safe movement of the train, thats the reason engineers exsist. I listen to my engineers, for no other reason thant they all have been at this a lot longer than I have, and know a lot more than me. If my engineer wants air on a couple of cars at the head end when we flat switch, it okay by me, hes the guy who has to stop the train, all I do is pull pins and tell him when that will do.
Stay frosty
Ed

[edblysard]

Funny how they get real picky abut that!
Ed

[Anonymous]

Wabash and Ed, you guys are a couple of savvy sons of guns. You got this young guys respect!

[edblysard]

Thanks, but it only make sense. Remember, I am trusting my life on what my engineer does, or dosnt do, and he trust me to watch out for him, because a lot of the time he cant see where we are going. If you cant work out any diffrence of opinion, before you move the train, then you both will get in trouble. Day in and day out, I have to know that the guy with his hand on the throttle and brake is listening to what I say, and will react to it, without question. He has to be able to trust me to not run him into something, or send him out into another trains path. So we have no chioce, really, its either trust and count on each other, or get another job.
Stay frosty
Ed

[BRAKIE]

I recall my railroading days,the conductor was the boss,but like ED said we looked out for each other and get right down to it our life depended on each other.

No brakeman or conductor would give a engineer a signal to move untill he knew where the other guy was at or where is is suppose to be.

Now in 9 1/2 years I worked on the railroad a engineer would never tell a counductor how to do his work nor would a conductor tell a engineer how to run his engine.They knew their jobs.

On the PRR when we recieved '19s,both the engineer and conductor would get a copy.This was to insure that the orders was understood and not over looked or forgotten by one person.

[Anonymous]

The one thing that really fries me, Ed, is when an engineer (a certain one) second guesses me just because I'm a young guy. I understand an old head being skeptical, but. Had this happen just yesterday. He thought that we were supposed to be going on a different route than we were (guess he should have sat in when we got our dope). I gave him the stop signal by lantern at the switch and he kept on going. Now, I was on the engine and in the clear, but, ANYTIME somebody gives you the washout, you better stop. I wi***hat this guy had a little more faith in me.

[Anonymous]

ED, I heard some rumors that conductors sleep alot, Is this true?
TIM A

[Anonymous]

I've got an answer to that Tim...What they do in their own homes is their business. Seriously, they'd better not be. It's a dismissal offense to be caught plus the danger of not relaying a critical signal or condition to the engineer.
gdc

[Anonymous]

I had to chuckle reading ironkens stoy about the engineer not taking his washout. I've been in the seat about 7 years but one time as a conductor I was giving the engineer handsignals back to a hitch. He had a hold of one car and thought the track was clear. He was known for going to fast and having a mind of his own regardles of the signals he was getting. Well, by the time I figured out what he was up to I gave him a big washout and he slamed into the cars hard enough to swing his door open and stall the engine. I was doing a good job of keeping a staight face but I lost it when I found his half smoked cigarette half way down the engines walkway. Slofr8.

[edblysard]

What was that, Tim?
Sorry, I just woke up...
No, In all seriousness, I can't speak for conductors at other roads, but here at the port, if your caught sleeping, your gone for at least 30 days. Now, some railroads have allowed a napping clause to be added to their contract, that allows one crew member at a time to nap, as long as the train is in a siding, say waiting on a meet, or waiting to get yarded, but on the road and on the move, most of the guys I know dont. But, you always know one guy who cant keep his eyes open, so I cant say never. I havent, but because we are a small road, our time in the engine is short, and you wouldnt have more than 1 hour before you reached the end if the line. The GCOR has a rule against sleeping, and the port terminal rule reads, " any employee or train crew member found to be in a reclined position with his eyes closed will be considered to be asleep, and subject to disicpline". Besides, most of our engineers would keep you awake just to have someone to talk to, from what they tell me, it get pretty boring on a long haul. I would imagine that on a really long road job, with nothing to do but ride, no set outs or switching to do enroute, its must happen, but I would bet it is the exception, not the rule.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Tim, they better not if they want to live. By that I mean if the conductor nods off, chances are that the engineer is fatigued as well. You both went on duty at the same time. If you both doze, what will stop the train at that next red board? When I was on the road, I figured that I was paid to stay awake, so thats what I did. It gets hard sometimes. If I got too drowsey I would stand or cool the cab off (if possible). Have drank many a Red Bull or other energy drinks. I always keep a couple in my grip. The hardest time for me is when you have been on duty all night and the sun starts to come up. Thats when it hits me the hardest.

[edblysard]

Oddly enough, tim, the few "fights" where the trainmaster was called stemmed from just this thing. Like I said, you always have one guy who thinks he really dosnt have to stay awake, thats what engineers are for. After several crews complained about him, the trainmasters got savy, waited till the train was stopped for the crew to eat, and after a few minutes, snuck up on the train, quitely got the engineers attention with a lantern, motioned us off the locomotive, and took a video camera and taped this guy sleeping on the floor. They got a good 30 minutes of tape, so he couldnt say he was looking for his contact lens or something like that, and pulled him out of service. Our local griever refused to attend the investigation on this, he had worked with this guy several times, and had enough of being a one man job. Now some may think we should back each other up, and cover up for each other because were a union, brother and all that, but when it comes down to one guys abuse of that, and by doing so putting all of our jobs and our safty in jepordy, well, too sad, too bad. This cats still isnt back to work here, and I doubt, with that tape, the NMB will reinstate him any time soon.
I'll cover for my helper if hes going to be five minutes late for duty because he had a flat, if anybody asked where he is, I say he's in the dumper, or at the shop getting lantren battries, because he really needs the job, and he really tries hard to do a good job, he's sharp, and learns quick. But if I ever catch him sleeping, well, that puts both himself, me and the engineer in danger, and that aint gonna happen on my watch. This is one of those jobs where you dont often get a second change if you miss something, like a red signal, or a switch lined into the side of another train. Catching up on your sleep here because your tired from you second job, or because you were out partying late last night is no excuse. If this isnt you primary job, or your girlfriends party means more to you than keeping me and my hogger safe, you need to find another carreer. I'm a coffee junkie, and I work the second trick, 3:00 pm till 11:00pm, and we have really late sunsets down here in the summer, around 9:00 to 9:30 in june. Watching the sun go down that late gets me. But my wife and kids all know not to wake me up untill at least 10:00am on the weekends, because I take my job, and the safety of my friends seriously, it even comes before time with my kids on their weekends. Most railroader feel the same way. Sadly, it the one bad apple....
Ed

[cabforward]

**every railroader, every policeman, every fireman who has ever spoken with someone under 20 about his job has heard "i want to work for the --- someday; i want a job like yours". i have had no contact with r.r. ( my great-grandather ran trains from n.o. to hattiesburg, ms, on the sou.. he died in '49, i was 2yrs. old ). i read stories in this form about r.r. and i have to be careful i dont drool on the keyboard..

i could never qualify for employment with a class 1 r.r.-- too much stress with extra board status, but i have wanted to apply for something with a private co. r.r., or a terminal r.r...they might work at odd hours, but i cant see any travel involved.. at least, i would sleep in my own bed every nite..

i understand r.r. is not fun-- it is god-awful dangerous work, with bad hours, bad weather and sometimes, trains have accidents with people, other trains, missing roadbeds, etc. ..still, i want to take a shot at it, with a small operation..

i was a policeman patrolman for 7 years.. i was on top of the world everyday, no duty was beneath me.. whatever i was given, i did, no problem.. other patrol officers would gripe about this-or-that and i would ask them straight up, can i do it? they gave me a look like im from mars.. this is scut work, they told me, you dont want this duty.. i said, try me, and they said, o.k. ..i was never disappointed about anything i did or anyone i worked with.. it was all a gas.. im believing that locating an entry-position with a small r.r. operation would provide the same satisfaction..unfortunately, i am unable to relocate and the economy isnt generating anything except guys talking on the news..

when a certain kind of work is envied by people who arent in it, those who are involved come to know this,
even if they dont read this forum.. r.r. has always been my first ambition, albeit an unrealized one.. railroaders dont have it easy, but i have to believe they do want it anyway they can find it..

there's just no way i could carry that d*** knuckle a mile and swap the broken one out for the new one..

[edblysard]

Hi again Train,
Like you, I wanted to be a railroader ever since I was a kid, watching those Rock Island GPs, red with yellow letters, shooting past our houst all hours of the day. When I signed on, I was 38, and left a position with my states Attorney General office to do so. That was six years ago. Now you hear us complain and gripe a lot about how tough this job is, and at times it can really be the pits, but you know something, with the exception of some really spoiled brat new hires, once inside, I havent seen too many guys quit. It gets in your blood, so to speak. Ill leave the romanticizing and somber stoires of the rail to proffesional story tellers, but I really dont think I will ever want to work anywhere else, or do anything else. I got lucky, and work for a terminal road on a regularly scheduled job, so I go to work the same days at the same time every day, and I get to go home to the wife and kids each night, granted they are asleep when I get there, but home is still home, you know. The guys on the class 1s dont, but I think getting to go so many diffrent places all the time may figure into why they stick it out. Then again, I may just be full of it, they may just love their jobs as much as I love mine, regardless of where they end up for the night..and I only weigh a buck thirity, so I aint carrying any knuckle anywhere, we can drag up to a new one, or shove back to the yard, but the knuckle weighs about as much as I do, and its gonna sit right where it is.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed, an E50 knuckle weighs about 90#. That's not easy for anyone to lug very far, even the UPS guy in brown. gdc

[edblysard]

Tell me about it, lucky for us, the carmen at our yards have four wheel drive scooters with a rack on the back, when we bust a knuckle or a knuckle pin breaks and we lose the things, we get them to bring us a new one, or retreive the old one from between the tracks. So long as we provide track protection for them, most will even replace it for you. Guess it a kinda of jobs security...
stay frosty
Ed

[wabash1]

Well to give my 2 cents worth . I could sleep longer while running down the road if the alerter didnt go off so often. Some conductors will sleep on the job often. someone said who will stop the train if we both are asleep, most generally the engineer will get his rest while the condutor is playing cards or something. but if the engineer does nod off, there is a thing called a alerter it operates sorta like the old dead mans pedal. its is set up to go off at intervals any where between 15 sec to 45secs. if you dont reset it then the brakes will apply. but not all engines have this as it is not manditory.

Now i dont tell the conductor what to do that is his job it is nice to know what is going on so i know how to handle the train. but it is like ed said i haft to trust him, he has to trust me. if you argue about every move then there will be know trust and work wont get done. railroaders love team work, not know it alls.

[edblysard]

You bet Wabash,
My engineer has pulled my butt out of the ashes more times than I can count. He not only deverves my respect and truct, he earns it, every day...I learned from a really well respected conductor that if there is three of us on the job, thats three brains, and three set of eyes, and they all can help make the jobs go quicker and be safer..he taught me to offer suggestions, not give orders, besides, the worst thing he could say to one of my ideas was no. I trusted him to keep me informed of what we were up to, and he never let me or the engineer down in that respect
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed, On my road, the rules say "In the absence of the conductor, the engineer is in charge of the train." There have been times when the conductor was present, and still absent. If the captain is a new guy, or totally unreliable, I will let him "run the job", but watch him like a hawk. As long as he isn't doing anything that will hurt someone or tear something up, he can be "in charge." I saw early in my career that anytime there was some question rules-wise on how we should proceed, everyone would look to the engineer for sound judgment. Today, the promotion thread always has the most experienced men running the engine, while the younger guys are conductoring.

[edblysard]

Hi Skeets,
I work for a terminal road, we dont have that rule in our book, but its a "understood" rule none the less. Due to the nature of our type of railroading, the engineer is often the only person in the cab for long streches of time, and if he tells us no, for what ever reason, we listen to him, because he often can see things we can not. And our promotion line is the same, senority can get you on the seatbox first, the young guys switch. And yes, we have a couple of newer guys who have no business switching, they cant or dont think any farther ahead than whats for lunch, much less how the job needs to be worked. If he isnt to dangerous, the old heads let him go about his duties, all he can do is earn you some overtime. But if he has a rep for tearing things up, well, we're a small road, everyone knows everyone else, and if someone gets too bad, we kinda weed those guys out. Any foreman can turn a new hire before his 90 day probation ends, and by then the clueless and unsure are usually run off. When ever I dont have the answer to a rule or procedure question, or am not quite sure the "best" way to work a job, I ask the engineer, because he often has been here longer than me, he had to work on the ground also, so he most likley has been there and done that before, and knows what to do. And we have quite a few oldheads who didnt want to run a motor, we have a sixty six year old switchman out here. And boy, that cats as tough as they come. So sometimes the engineer is the youngest guy on the job. I have worked the helper slot on a job where both the foreman and enginee didnt even have to shave, I got shoes older than these two. But like you, I didnt run the job, I allowed the kid foreman to decide for himself. I watched, and made sure he didnt get into too much trouble, and I let him make some simple mistakes that wouldnt hurt anything, just waste time, but some times that how you learn what not to do. When he asked, I gave him my opinion, but left the decision up to him. But for the most part, it boils down to who you trust, and who trusts you.
The kid foreman? Well, he just finished his yardmaster class, so I guess he learned what he needed to.
Take care,
Ed

[wabash1]

Ed here is something i learned years back that if you dont know ask questions to stay out of trouble. nobody cares if you ask to stay out of trouble but mess up and put one on the ground and stop all trains and the crews wanting to get home and see how bad they talkk about you. i once when working the ground never worked this particular place i had to spot 6 cars. the problem wouldnt be so bad if we would have to pull some to know which tracks were which. but these cars was late getting in and i cought this job from the board so i had no idea what tracks was what. so i ask the engineer he had 1 year senority on me. he didnt know either. when we got there we had 1 train stopped about 2 miles away, and that engineer had worked this before and told us where to put them. and nobody cared that we didnt know. there are still places i have never worked but some day that will change. and there is conductors old head guys that can run a monster train better than qualified engineers. senority does have benifits. dont be afraid to ask questions.