Bi-Level Suburban Coaches of various designs.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

In the postwar period, I have noticed two distinct designs of bi-level suburban coaches develop.
1. The gallery design, with a wide center vestibule, a low floor on the lower level and an upper level with no center aisle reached from stairs on each side off the center vestibule. This design is used in Chicago, San Francisco and Montreal.

2. The "lozenge" design, with two vestibules at a 3/4 point, single level between the vestibule and the end sill, and two full levels between the vestibules. This design is used in Toronto, Miami and other locations.

Is there any operating advantage to one design over the other and why did the lozenge design develop long after the gallery design had proved itself?

[oltmannd]

Which has greater capacity?

I think the gallery cars are ~125 and the Bombarier cars ~135. If the ownership costs are similar, then 135 beats 125.

Also, there is the high level vs. low level platform issue and ADA compliance. Are the gallery cars ADA compliant? High level platforms cost $$$!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

In Chicago, the gallery coaches have seating capacities ranging from 148 to 162. The newest Metra coaches have wheelchair lifts and are ADA-compliant. Except for the IC electric lines, all platforms on Metra are ground-level.

[cnw4001]

While I can't remember the exact numbers the new Colorado Railcar bi-level's seat more than the Bombardier's. They've sold some and the cars can be configured in several fashions.

Tri-rail in Florida has some already.

Dale

[passengerfan]

The Bombardier cars are the most popular on the westcoast with Vancouver, Seattle, Stockton, Los Angeles and San Diego commuter agencies all using these cars. The Metra type are only used on the Peninsula commute. Guess I'll have to sit down and find out which is the most popular. With the numbers Toronto GO alone operates I would imagine it must be close.

[daveklepper]

I have never seen the interior of an LIRR bilevel, which are built to fit throught the Penn Station tunnels,. except the prewar type, which had a normal center aisle and steps down and up to compartments with facing seats on both levels. Can anyone describe their new bilevels?

[TH&B]

What do Colerado Railcar bilevels look like?

Outside of Chicago the only other places I can even think of that use "galery cars" are San Fransisco and Montreal. Is / was there anywhere alse?

[passengerfan]

440cuin. I think you are correct but can remember when Toronto had a leased set of C&NW gallery cars.That was before they received there first double deck commuter cars from Thunder Bay before the company was bought by Bombardier.

[espeefoamer]

What type of cars are used by the Montreal commuter system?

[TH&B]

Montreal has a variety of comuter cars, and it changes over time, but it never seems to have a huge amount of any single type. Some galery cars wich are supposedly going to be replaced by Bombardier bilevels. Newer single decker cars similar to types used by NJT, used GO train single decker cars rebuilt, Old single deckers from steam train days, and some electric MU trains similar again to NJT trains. All types exept the steam generation cars have cab car types. The oldest cars can open the windows.

[cnw4001]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 440cuin

What do Colerado Railcar bilevels look like?

Outside of Chicago the only other places I can even think of that use "galery cars" are San Fransisco and Montreal. Is / was there anywhere alse?

Follow the link and you can see them. The Tri-Rail livery is also shown.

http://www.coloradorailcar.com/double-deck-dmu-home.htm

Dale

[cnw4001]

Perhaps some of the members in the DC area can join in with more information but I seem to remember reading that VRE or MARC or perhaps both were considering Japanese built double deck cars.

Perhaps my memory is incorrect but that's what I thought I had read.

Dale

[Paul Milenkovic]

The gallery bi-level is a labor-saving invention. The conductor and assistants collecting tickets can check and punch tickets on both the main level and on the gallery at the same time. Passengers on the gallery either hand over their ticket or clip their monthly passes to the clips along the gallery railing.

The gallery is not without drawbacks. There are some modesty issues for women wearing short skirts exposing themselves to passengers (and conductors) on the main level. The Illinois Central Highlighers were gallery bilevels, I guess out of force of habit, but they paneled off the galleries for modesty reasons because they use high level platforms and turnstiles instead of on-train personal to collect the fares.

I also think the gallery bilevels have some comfort issues. I was just on one and thwocked my head on the gallery getting up from a seat on the main level. The gallery also has a seating section I call the "peanut gallery" where the seats are all part of one long sideway's seating bench. Instead of sitting 2 across or even 3 across like on East Coast trains, you are sitting a dozen across, and in my commuting days the station I got on had me sitting in that section because all of the main level and gallery 1-across seats were all taken.

[daveklepper]

The other disadvantage of gallery cars is that the galleries are one seat one each side as against 2 and 2 seating on both levels for the lozenge cars. But this capacity issue may be made up by the single level between doors and car ends. Incidentally, I understand that Metra electric no longer has turnstiles but as on-board fare collection like the other Metra lines. If I am wrong, please correct me. Some gallery cars don't ahve any side facing seats, it is not an essential part of the design, just the effort of one system to cram in more seats.

Still waiting for someone to fill me in on what the new LIRR double deckers are like!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The CB&Q/BN bi-levels did not have center-facing seats on the gallery level and had a correspondingly lower capacity. As a regular rider on Metra Southwest, I personally prefer the single seats upstairs but the center facing seats aren't that bad. Being packed a bit tight is a fact of life on transit and suburban equipment, consider the 3-2 seating on Metro North and LIRR.

Metra recently dropped the automated fare collection system on the Electric District (IC). It was a carryover from IC days and in one version or another dated back to 1966. It may have been an attempt to reduce the need for outlying manned stations since IC was virtually a rapid-transit type operation within the Chicago city limits with stations only a half-mile apart.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

The CB&Q/BN bi-levels did not have center-facing seats on the gallery level and had a correspondingly lower capacity. As a regular rider on Metra Southwest, I personally prefer the single seats upstairs but the center facing seats aren't that bad. Being packed a bit tight is a fact of life on transit and suburban equipment, consider the 3-2 seating on Metro North and LIRR.

Metra recently dropped the automated fare collection system on the Electric District (IC). It was a carryover from IC days and in one version or another dated back to 1966. It may have been an attempt to reduce the need for outlying manned stations since IC was virtually a rapid-transit type operation within the Chicago city limits with stations only a half-mile apart.

You are correct, sir. The IC went to automated tickets and gates in July of '66. During the summer of '65 they started with automated ticket vendors located on platforms, with the tickets collected by the crews.

Before this the IC had quite a complicated, but well run system of fare collection dispite its rapid transit style of operation. This due to the high number of passengers and the local nature of the operation. Most stations had two seperate entrances. Each entrance was staffed by a ticket clerk and a gateman during peak peiods. Each train had a trainman to collect two cars, including Jeaton, for a while. The tickets were color coded for zones, and validity. A monthly ticket would have the top part color-coded for zone, with the punch-portion color coded for which month it was valid. This part was changed each year so a December monthly of one year couldn't be used in December of another.

One would buy their ticket from the clerk, then have it punched with a punch mark associated with that station's division. For instance the 51st Street gateman punched a "P" mark. gatemen at Randolph punched a "diamond" shape, and so on. The trainmen would inspect tickets after each station on northbound trains, and then after 53rd Street, they would collect or cancel tickets. This was a costly way of doing business to say the least.

By the time the IC bi-levels showed up the ticket system was fully automated and there was no need, at the time, for trainmen to go to the upper deck so a generous modesty panel was placed for the gallery seats. With regards to the lack of same on other cars, and women's styles of the early '70s, the first conductor I ever worked with on a CNW suburban train admonished,"Don't go walking on the armrests of the lower deck seats to get a better look up stairs."

As the CNW was doing well with their suburban operation, and the IC had just made major improvements, the IC followed the CNW one more step. In June of '69 the CNW went to an awfull green elevator operator's uniform for their train crews. The IC figured they do the same.

The CNW inter-city gallery cars were an execption with respect to the modesty panels. As there was a lot of time between stations there was o need for passengers to hand their tickets down to a trainman. We would have to actually ascend the stairs, both sides, to collect tickets on those cars.

Mitch
Proud orriginator of the Metra trainmen's uniform design

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

In Chicago, the gallery coaches have seating capacities ranging from 148 to 162. The newest Metra coaches have wheelchair lifts and are ADA-compliant. Except for the IC electric lines, all platforms on Metra are ground-level.

According to Bombardier, the seating capcy is 164 for their commuter coaches.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

In Chicago, the gallery coaches have seating capacities ranging from 148 to 162. The newest Metra coaches have wheelchair lifts and are ADA-compliant. Except for the IC electric lines, all platforms on Metra are ground-level.

According to Bombardier, the seating capcy is 164 for their commuter coaches.

NJT's bilevels seat 141