British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

     Are British locomotives reletively quieter than EMDs and GEs?

[Simon Reed]

Murphy - I'm no expert on this but I understand that the noise issues experienced by UK engineers on EMD's are more about pitch and frequency than decibels.

To the dismay of UK railfans the EMD's are, externally, far quieter than most of our older home grown stuff but the engineers complaints relate to a constant low register noise.

Once again, I know next to nothing about acoustics so can only report from what I am told.   

 

[John Bakeer]

The mysterious Baldwin (my memory is not clear on this) was an east european WD 2-8-0 which found its way on to the KWVR where the clearance problems showed up.

There are at least two (Baldwin?) USA 0-6-0 tanks on preserved lines (again my memory fails me).

Hitatchi are supplying Eurostars for the St Pancras services and I suspect the class 170 DMUs running around the north of england are theirs too.

Grand Central were left in the proverbial **** by a British trian maker being unable to deliver on time. GC are currently struggling to find any stock for services originally posted to launch back in May 2007.

The new Chinese/Tibet RR locos are specially adapted GE/GMs(?) for high altitude service.The passenger stock is pressurised like an aircraft. Our US cousins have purchased or have on order a number of QJ steamers.

 

[beaulieu]

<snipped> 

Hitatchi are supplying Eurostars for the St Pancras services and I suspect the class 170 DMUs running around the north of england are theirs too.

I think the Hitachi built EMUs are going to be called "Javelins" and will be used for local services over the High Speed line.

 

Grand Central were left in the proverbial **** by a British trian maker being unable to deliver on time. GC are currently struggling to find any stock for services originally posted to launch back in May 2007.

The new Chinese/Tibet RR locos are specially adapted GE/GMs(?) for high altitude service.The passenger stock is pressurised like an aircraft. Our US cousins have purchased or have on order a number of QJ steamers.

 

[martin.knoepfel]

Question concerning the HST's. If they are now refitting the engines with new diesel-motors, why not build some additional B-units and additional passenger-coaches to lengthen trains and max-out the plattforms? Thins would be a relatively easy way to increase capacity on heavily patronized trains.  

[John Bakeer]

Easier said than done Martin,

The (remaining) UK train maker, although complaining of empty order books is incapable of delivering anything right or on time.

Unfortunately I have seen this kind of sick company many times during my long career in engineering that has completely lost its sense of direction, British Leyland comes to mind as a complete basket case that despite herculean efforts was beyond help and had to die.

[owlsroost]

Hitatchi are supplying Eurostars for the St Pancras services and I suspect the class 170 DMUs running around the north of england are theirs too.

 

The 168/170 DMUs were built by Adtranz (originally) then Bombardier (at Derby), as were the Voyager/Meridian/Pioneer DEMUs (built in Belgium). The Electrostar EMUs (running on Southern and c2c) were also built at Derby by Bombardier. The 185 DMUs are from Siemens, as are Desiro EMUs. The 175's and 180's DMUs are from Alsthom - who basically blew themselves out of the UK train market with the Juniper/175/180/Pendolino delivery and design/reliability problems.

The 'Javelin' 140mph EMUs (for domestic services on HS1 from Kent) are Hitachi's first trains for the UK, although they've been trying to break into the market for years. These services/trains are nothing to do with Eurostar.

Grand Central were left in the proverbial **** by a British trian maker being unable to deliver on time. GC are currently struggling to find any stock for services originally posted to launch back in May 2007.

 

Bombardier aren't involved (the only 'train maker' left in the UK - all the others are maintenance/refurbishment companies). Marcroft Engineering (part of EWS) are converting loco hauled MK3's to work with HST power cars being refurbished by DML in Plymouth - both coming from long-term storage and consequently needing a fair amount of work. There was a documentary on BBC TV recently about the Grand Central startup - their Engineering Director wasn't wildly impressed with Marcroft......On the other hand, some of the Grand Central people came across in the documentary as a bit naive about what's involved in going from an idea to actually running trains.

 

The new Chinese/Tibet RR locos are specially adapted GE/GMs(?) for high altitude service.The passenger stock is pressurised like an aircraft. Our US cousins have purchased or have on order a number of QJ steamers.

 

They are GE's - there was an item in Trains a while ago about the line.

Tony

[Tulyar15]

The mysterious Baldwin (my memory is not clear on this) was an east european WD 2-8-0 which found its way on to the KWVR where the clearance problems showed up.

John, are you sure you're not confusing this mythical Baldwin 2-8-0 with the British WD 2-8-0 that the KWVR imported from Sweden. While in Sweden it was extensive modified, including a more weatherproof cab to protect the crew from the Arctic climate of Sweden. It entered service in as bought condition but the KWVR have now restored it to original condition. How ironic that this loco is the only survivor of a 900+ strong class; the most numerous class of loco built in Britain. (For those who think the LMS Black 5 was the most numerous class - 842 built - more 8F's were built (852) but only 666 came in to BR stock).

[Simon Reed]

KWVR have a USATC Lima 2-8-0.

It's certainly worked in preservation but not for a lot of years. With the next projected overhauls being Southern Light Pacific "City of Wells", BR Standard 4 75078 and MR 4F 43924 I can't see work on this Lima being a priority.

KWVR's website is here:-

http://www.kwvr.co.uk/index.htm

but no photo of the Lima, which may be John's mythical beast!

[jeremygharrison]

The most numerous class of steam locomotive all of which were built in Britain was not the Riddles designed WD 2-8-0  (935  examples built 1943-45) , but the  London and North Western Railway Ramsbottom designed 'DX' class 0-6-0 with 943 built 1858-74 (including 86 for the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway) - none of these survive (last went c 1930).

 

[Tulyar15]

Perhaps a DX should be the next new build project.

I've seen the KWVR's USA 2-8-0 in operation; I'm looking forward to seeing the restored WD 2-8-0.

MEanwhile in Argentina, a railway there has purchased some Portuguese 1400 class locos, which were built by English Electric and based on the BR class 20. Some pics on this website:-

http://www.porlosrielesdelsud.com.ar/gale80.html

It amuses me how the cabs of the 1400 class seem to tower over the EMD loco hauling them from the harbor to their new home.

[Simon Reed]

I had a go behind the WD 2-8-0 a few weeks ago. It certainly looks the part although understandably with 34,000 pounds of tractive effort available it was'nt being worked too hard.

There are six USATC 2-8-0's listed in the UK, beside the two Alco frames at Riley's Bury works.

• Alco 70284/1942 - to UK via Hungary. Not sure where this is at the moment.
• Baldwin 69496/1943 - to UK via Poland. Was operable until recently on North Yorks. Moors. I think it's now at North Norfolk.
• Alco 71533/1944 - to UK via Italy. Last listed at Mid Hants. Don't know much about this one.
• Lima 8856/1945 - to UK via China. Just out of boiler ticket at Churnet Valley.
• Lima 8758/1945 - to UK via Poland. At KWVR as discussed above.
• Baldwin 72080/1945 - to UK via Hungary. At Churnet Valley and apparently near the end of an overhaul.

One of these has been advertised for sale recently. I don't know which one but it is listed as "stripped down some parts missing" so I'd guess either the first or the third.   

 

[John Bakeer]

Gentlemen, Thank you for clearing up the WD 2-8-0 issue for me I was just rhuminating without any aim to cause controversy. May I raise another query. The  Longmoor Military Railway had a WD 2-10-0 named Gordon, wonder where that one is? The LMR featured in The St Trinians Great Train Robbery film-a gem.

[Simon Reed]

John,

"Gordon" (as in Khartoum, not the Big Engine) is at the Severn Valley. I believe it's going into the new museum at Highley.

As I'm laid up at home with an ear infection and have nothing better to do I've been looking at this USATC question in more detail.

The one that's for sale almost certainly appears to be the first one which is now at Great Central Nottingham. Two sources give Schenectady Works number 70284 but the Industrial Railways Society believe it is 70610 of 1943.

I can't find the other Alco - built loco though. Between bouts of spinning head I'll have a better look.  

[John Bakeer]

Simon, Sorry about your ear problem, I get a similar thing from time to time, caused alternately by wax build up and Robinsons fire water.

Is Gordon in steam?-doubtful! (channel 5 0830 weekdays).

[MStLfan]

Well it sems to have finally happened!

http://www.freightliner.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?newsid=52

GE is breaking into the UK market.

I recall that quite a few pages of this monumental thread have been concentrated on the poor build quality and poor adhesion characteristics of the European EMD product and I also recall a debate about the alternatives available.

It has long been a disappointment to me that no European operators have chosen to seek a superior product to the EMD offering. Equally disappointing has been the failure of European manufacturers to fully capitalise on the paucity of a high output diesel for EU use.    

With the impending sale of EWS to DB (still pending EU approval although agreed domestically) this represents an extremely timely breakthrough for GE in the European market and I am exceptionally pleased at this news.

A response from Vossloh/Siemens now also must be an inevitability. 

It is not as if the Germans are doing nothing. Vossloh bought a factory in Spain from Alstom (now Vossloh Espana) and they are building diesels there with EMD-engines I believe the brand name is EURO 4000. They use an EMD 16V710 diesel with 4250 hp according to DIN so it something of a disguised SD70.

Further, Voith (of hydrodynamic drive fame) is building prototype 4000 hp diesels in Kiel Germany with the help of ex Vossloh personnel, brand name Maxima, type 40cc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-151662978.html

http://www.railcolor.net/

http://www.eurailpress.de/news/news.php3?id=19072

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/en/WillkommeninD/D-Informationen/Nachrichten/071116-3,navCtx=73442,__page=2.html

http://www.vossloh-espana.com/fs_cms/en/products/diesel-electric_locomotives/euro_4000/EURO_4000.html

I wonder if Siemens will offer an ER30 or something like it with 3000 kW output? Or if Bombardier will offer a diesel with a higher output than 2200 kW?

greetings,

Marc Immeker

 

[Tulyar15]

I've seen the Mid Hant's USA 2-8-0 in action. At one time they painted her in Longmoor Blue, which was carried by a classmate that was based on that line for several years. I think the MHR one may even assumed the identity of its long scrapped sister.

I think the Llangollen Railway had or have a USA 2-8-0.

As for WD 2-10-0's, in addition to 'Gordon' on the SVR (they may overhaul her one day, but I recall when she was in SVR service she was not popular due to rough riding), two others have been re-imported from Greece, where a number survive. These two were originally bought by the Mid Hants but one is now on the NYMR named "Dame Vera Lynn" while the other is on the Great Central Railway Loughborough in BR livery. Of the survivors in Greece, most are dumped in Barry scrapyard condition but I think at least one is kept by the Greek Railways in working order for specials. Another one is preserved at the Dutch NAtional Railway museum at Utrecht.

[Simon Reed]

Tulyar - can't remember ever having seen a photo of the Mid-Hants USATC, and to my shame and regret I've only been there once. Thanks for your confirmation that it has been in ticket.

I think the loco you recall at Llangollen is the one now at Ruddington. It got there via Ribble Steam Railway.

I also think that the WD 2-10-0 that was at Great Central is now at North Norfolk.  

[Tulyar15]

I've got some photos of the Mid Hant's USA 2-8-0. I also photographed the London & South Western T9 4-4-0 when it was there, but did not see it running. I wonder if the MHR will restore it now that the MRM have offered to let anyline who'll restore it have it. Mind you, given all the unrestored locos the Mid Hants have been buying of late, they've probably got their hands full.

[Simon Reed]

Murphy - are you keeping up with all this?

Send me your address again and I'll send you a book which will help.

[Tulyar15]

Simon, Sorry about your ear problem, I get a similar thing from time to time, caused alternately by wax build up and Robinsons fire water.

Is Gordon in steam?-doubtful! (channel 5 0830 weekdays).

No, he's currently out of ticket at the Severn Valley. I believe he's still Army property.

[Tulyar15]

With regard to the US Army 2-8-0's, I've just spotted an article on the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway's website which gives a good, concise history of the class:-

http://www.gwsr.com/html/american_invasion.html

[Murphy Siding]

     I came accross a photo in a book, of a "London & North Eastern Railway Garratt U1-class locomotive No.2395".  I've never seen anything about Beyer-Garratts in Great Britain itself.  Usually. they are shown on some far off 3rd world railroad, on a narrow gage line.  Where there many in Britain, and were they succesfull there?

[Tulyar15]

There were a few Garratts in Britain. In addition to the LNER 2-8-0 + 0-8-2, which was a one off, the LMS had a class of about 30 2-6-0 + 0-6-2's. These were built in the 1920'safter a proposed class of 2-10-0's was vetoed as they would have been too heavy. Ironically the LMS Garratts remained in service up to the 1950's when they were replaced the BR Class 9 2-10-0's which had an even lower axle weight! None were preserved, but a very small standard gauge 0-4-0 + 0-4-0 which worked on a colliery line in Warwickshire survives at Bressingham Museum in Norfolk. It was one of four such locos built for industrial servce.

K1, the very first Garratt of all, was re-imported by its makes in 1947 and when they went bust in 1965 it was bought by the Ffestiniog Railway. It was too big to fit their restricted loading gauge, but has now been restored for use on the neighbouring Welsh Highland Railway (see www.festrail.co.uk), who have also imported a number of 2-6-2 + 2-6-2 Garratts from S. Africa. So with the FR's double Fairlies and the WHR's Mallett's Wales is the place to go in Britain to see articulated locos in action. (The Welshpool and Llanfair have also got a Kitson Meyer articulated loco, but it's out of ticket!).

One other country in Europe where you can see Garratts is Spain. On their broafd gauge (5' 6") main lines there were two classes of Garratts; a passenger 4-6-2 + 2-6-4 class and a freight class of 2-8-2 + 2-8-2's. One of the latter survives and is kept in working order for railfan specials. The 3' 6" gauge Rio Tinto (near Seville) line also has a Garratt; it was the only one on that line but I believe is a standard S. African class. It is not currently in working order but survives along with all of that lines locos.

[John Bakeer]

The only minor point to add to a well covered subject (thank you Tulyar and Owlsroost) is that EWS is now owned by the Germans DAB.

[MStLfan]

The Welshpool and Llanfair have also got a Kitson Meyer articulated loco, but it's out of ticket.

Cool, I am a big fan of them. Which one do they have?

One other country in Europe where you can see Garratts is Spain.

In the 80's and early 90's there was a South African narrow gauge (=2 ft) garratt on the Schinznacher Baumschule. That is a tree nursery in Schinznach, Switzerland, which was open to the public. Not sure if they stille have it.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[Tulyar15]

The Welshpool and Llanfair have also got a Kitson Meyer articulated loco, but it's out of ticket.

Cool, I am a big fan of them. Which one do they have?

The W & L Meyer is called "Monarch" and is an 0-4-4-0 which formerly ran on the Sittingbourne & Kemsley line in KEnt. There are some picturs on the W & L site at http://www.wllr.org.uk/news.htm
(see July 23rd).

Going back to the LNER Garratt, at the weekend I found my book about the Lickey Incline, where the it spent its final years, by the late H. C. Casserley, a noted UK railfan. On one occassion when Casserley had gone to Bromsgrove to photograph the Garratt in action, he was lucky enough to see a northbound freight train arrive hauled by one of the LMS 2-6-0 + 0-6-2 Garratt's (these only occassionaly ran on that line). What a picture he thought he would get if it would be banked by the LNER Garratt. Sure enough, #69999 came off shed and buffered up to the rear of the train. Off they went, up the Lickey (1 in 37 or 2.7% if you prefer). But despite having two Garratts and 10 cylinders to shift it the train stalled half way up the bank. Guess who came to the rescue - the real Lickey Banker #58100 (unofficially known as "Big Bertha"). For many years this 4 cylinder 0-10-0 was the only 10 coupled loco in Britain. One she buffered up the train re-started and made it to the top - with 14 cylinders in all!

[Murphy Siding]

     Simon- I recieved the book you sent me a couple of days ago.  Thank you very much.  You are correct it (Preserved Locomotives of British Railways) is the kind of book I enjoy, technical data, and some illustrations, a good escape book.  I note that you've underlined a dozen or more names.  Are those locomotives you have ridden behind.

     Thanks again.  I consider myself to be fortunate, to have friends on the other side of the globe.

-Norris

[Simon Reed]

Thought you'd like that one!

Yes, if it's underlined I've enjoyed it. I think once you start going through the book you'll realise there's a few more than a dozen or so!

Working tomorrow, then straight out to our neighbours New Year party. We'll be home by midnight to settle the dogs (who dislike fireworks) and have our own little Joni Mitchell moment.

In other words my last post until 2008, so happy new year to all!

Norris - you've got a message.  

[METRO]

Ah I think I finally may have found a place to get my British Rail questions answered!

One that I have been thinking about for a while, were there any external differences between the Class 08 and Class 09 shunters, or was the re-gearing the only change?

Also what was the reasoning behind the removal of the diesel-hydraulics from the Western Region in such short order?

Cheers!

~METRO