Amtrak ADA Compliant Platform Question

[robscaboose]

[?][?][?] I am part of a group that is restoring the ICRR Mattoon Illinois Depot. The depot is an active Amtrak station & were averging a bit over 1,200 passengers per month. The station is unmanned & we are served by Amtrak (4) times per day. The rent is $1.00 per year plus half the costs of ulities & janitorial work.

Part of the renovation is to make the platform ADA compliant. The track that goes by the depot is double tracked and Amtrak wants a ADA compliant platform for each track. Even though 95%+ of the time Amtrak uses the track closest to the depot.

My question is - If you live near an Amtrak station that is double tracked - do both tracks have an ADA compliant platform & what is the name of your town

Thank you

Rob Doyle

[mudchicken]

Rob:

(1) Anytime you do new construction or significant rehab, you lose to ADA. Do not get caught trying to bend the rules either! (That is a really expensive, legally dumb mistake!). Our firm is designing the intermodal facility at Bloomington/Normal and you might want to take a look at how that is being handled. (Hint: We designed your copshop and are currently working on Mattoon's waste water facilities)

(2) Don't do anything that is going to foul the clearance envelopes for freight operation or be a menace to switchmen. If you don't know how to design & build this stuff, hire someone qualified who does. You do NOT want the liability or your well intentioned civic efforts to be squashed.

(3) Talk to Mike Garcia (RR Design Engineer)in the IDOT rail section in Springfield.

[banghead][banghead][banghead]

[robscaboose]

Thank you for your insight. We just wanted to know if it is an absolute requirement to make both tracks ADA compliant when the 2nd track is so seldom use for passengers.

The guy in charge of MOW in Mattoon told me last year that the dispatchers were requested if at all possible to route Amtrak on the track closest to the depot.

I was also concerned about wide loads & how well CN would tolerate restrictions when the work was being done

Rob

[robscaboose]

Mudchicken

My job is not to design it but to help pay for it. I will forward Mikes name to the Mattoon City manager

Rob

[mudchicken]

Rob:

You have CN-IC Field Engineer Jim Binder right there in Mattoon (at least last I heard). Talk to him. You definately have flagging and liability issues. Make sure you folks are all on the same page. Failure to do so can be tragic. You also might want to talk to Public Facilities Engineer Terry Lee on one of his swings south.

Mud

[robscaboose]

Mudchicken

Thank you again. Mattoon is presently building a bridge over the tracks & recently completed another. From my observations, restricted time frames are being used.

Rob

[Anonymous]

Mudchicken...
What mean ye by "lose to ADA?" My wife has MS and everywhere that has become ADA compliant makes her "win."

Mitch

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by artmark

Mudchicken...
What mean ye by "lose to ADA?" My wife has MS and everywhere that has become ADA compliant makes her "win."

Mitch

Fortunately the pendulum has started to swing back to the middle ground.

"Lose" as in killing a project because of a quadrupling of project cost (public benefit does not increase 4 times as well, which creates BIG problems for Rob.).

"Lose" as in lose control of a local project to outside forces.

and in this case, " Lose" your hypothetical argument with Amtrak and the State of Illinois over a platform that most likely will never be used and will incur additional costs over time and is a hazzard to the freight operation's employees.
.
I am not against ADA in concept, but I am against the abuse of the statute by a few narrow-minded activists lacking in common sense. (Reasonable accomodation?, portable lifts lose out to expensive monoliths?)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

QUOTE: Originally posted by artmark

Mudchicken...
What mean ye by "lose to ADA?" My wife has MS and everywhere that has become ADA compliant makes her "win."

Mitch

Fortunately the pendulum has started to swing back to the middle ground.

"Lose" as in killing a project because of a quadrupling of project cost (public benefit does not increase 4 times as well, which creates BIG problems for Rob.).

"Lose" as in lose control of a local project to outside forces.

and in this case, " Lose" your hypothetical argument with Amtrak and the State of Illinois over a platform that most likely will never be used and will incur additional costs over time and is a hazzard to the freight operation's employees.
.
I am not against ADA in concept, but I am against the abuse of the statute by a few narrow-minded activists lacking in common sense. (Reasonable accomodation?, portable lifts lose out to expensive monoliths?)

Mudchicken,

Thanks for making clear your concerns, and you're right. But just remember, passengers who use wheelchairs feel quite humiliated with lifts. It puts them and their disability on display. I found this out by aiding passengers on the South Shore where we had lifts.

But you're right with respect to footing the bill to pay for gantlets and high level platforms.

Mitch

[robscaboose]

Thank you everyone for your comments. Speaking as one of the people responsible for finding the money to pay for the renovation of the depot, I was questioning why we needed an ADA compliant platform on both tracks, when I've never seen Amtrak stop on th 2nd track.

Rob

[Overmod]

Amtrak has a bit of a 'situation' with ADA compliance -- there was a case a few years ago (LC or others can provide the full details) which IIRC required Amtrak to be proactive where 'handicapped access' to its trains is concerned...

I would think that an "ADA-compliant" platform on the second track could be limited to a comparatively short facility, if stops there are infrequent and it would be possible to have Amtrak either 'spot' the train accordingly for discharging disabled passengers at that location, or either locate or move the disabled passengers to a specific car or location in the train that would correspond to the platform. The law calls for 'reasonable accommodation', which in the case of an only-intermittently-used facility would probably not require a full-length platform (or one of comparable length to the 'main' platform). I do think it would be 'reasonable', though, to expect accommodation if Amtrak does, in fact, expect to stop on that track at any time in normal service.

The comment on lifts is an interesting one, because if Amtrak only uses that second track in 'emergencies', it might be suitable to provide 'reasonable accommodation' only on an emergency basis -- in which case, use of a portable lift might no longer constitute an 'embarrassment' to riders, but an actual improvement in rider convenience (as well as a defendable "business-related" reasonable accommodation...)

The important thing is going to be the ramps/railings, and the lighting, signage, etc. regarding the 'barrier-free' arrangements. I also presume that some method of getting the disabled passengers between the main station area and the second-track platform would be involved in the design -- perhaps an abbreviated form of one of those rubber or concrete modular grade-crossing aprons that would provide a smooth running surface for wheelchair or walker wheels, etc.

One of the individuals mudchicken mentioned would be an ideal source of information regarding exactly what you need for compliance. I, for one, would be very interested to hear a report of such discussions...

[passengerfan]

I haver first hand knowledge of a pending lawsuit against Amtrak that proves that amtrak still does their best to discourage wheelchair bound passengers. Don't believe me just try to get the ADA sleeping car space on a Superliner equipped train. You can phone Amtrak six months in advance and they will tell you the space is sold out on every train. Ride the train and you will find out the space is occupied by anyone but someone confined to a wheelchair. VIA Rail is much better but they still need to be prodded a bit.
The ADA act was enacted over fifteen years ago and many cities and businesses have not gotten the message. I agree that many of the law suits are frivolous. But all persons whether handicapped or not deserve an equal opportunity whether it be in employment, access to buildings and travel. The Airlines for the most part have done far more to comply than Amtrak and Greyhound is doing a pretty good job as well. Why should I be refused transportation simply because I am wheelchair bound, It isn't by choice believe me.
But cities and transport have to do more for the handicapped and become ADA compliant or the number of lawsuits is going to increase. The number of people confined to wheelchairs is increasing dramatically and more needs to be done.

[Anonymous]

I seriously doubt that you can avoid putting a tactile surface in for the full length of both platforms, and would recommend that you not try to circumvent it--just put it in the budget and carry on. There are a number of ways to do this. Amtrak likes Armor Tile. There are other vendors as well. I would suggest 12" tiles minimum--do not get the 6x6 as they have a nasty tendency to pop out. A good economical way is to use stampcrete (they make a die with the truncated domes) and dye the concrete a contrasting color when you mix it. If you make this a separate pour, tie the rebar to the main platform pour and put an expansion joint between the two pours (also helps differentiate the tactile surface). This has worked in Michigan so I know it can stand the freeze cycles. We've used it successfully in TX. CTA has some experience and can also give you some guidance as to vendors that make products which work well in the cold and take salt.

Last time I looked, tactile surface in contrasting color is still 2' wide at the track edge of the platform.

There is no ADA requirement on platform length--just that whatever platform you build must be compliant. In our end of the world ATK thinks that they can get by with 300', which is generally not correct, but it has nothing to do with ADA. The incremental cost of making the platform ADA-compliant is minimal compared to the cost of the platform itself. I recommend building the second platform as long as is affordable, and then leave room to extend it.

Make each platform at least 10' wide--for safety. And if you can, go 8" above top of rail (8" TOR). This will clear any equipment on the track, including journals, and eliminate the step box requirement--you'll be amazed at how much faster ATK can load and unload without the step boxes.

Don't forget to light it--5 footcandles minimum. Not ADA, again just basic safety. Shoebox fixtures with HPS or metal halide work just fine. Just get the correct throw. Your design engineer should know all this.

And, assuming you can get a truck in on the field side of the platform for its entire length, pouring should be no big deal. CN is going to make you pay for a flagger during the entire period when the platform work (grading, base, framing, pour and finish, etc.) are being done.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

[jdamelio]

Very interesting discussion, for which I can offer no engineering or compliance advise.

My wife needs to use the high vestibule as the entrance as she cannot negotiate the steps. We have taken two round trips from Palatka, FL to 30th Street. When the northbound pulls in to Palatka we are usually on first. But it takes quite awhile before the conductor and trainmen and car staff can get the lift in position. Seems to me it was close to 20 minutes before the consist could be pulled forward for coach boarding. The train is fowling the street crossing while this is going on. The last time an amubulance on a run had to wait. The high platforms at 30th St are a big help! So are the Red Caps!!

We have not had problems with availability of H1 compartments on Viewliners. Do remember on one trip north we stopped in Raleigh at 0400 and sat for quite awhile. I heard quite a commotion outside in the passageway. Eventually a woman with head bandages, arm cast and leg cast in a very narrow wheel chair was brought down on the lift. Apparently she was roomed in a B compartment and they had trouble negotiating all the corners to get to the vestibule.

My anecdotes.

Jeff

[Anonymous]

jdamelio--

My condolences for your troubles. There must be reasonable accommodation made for paying customers.

Your Palatka FL problem sounds more like a station/crew issue than anything else.

While a high platform will certainly help you at PHL, you must remember that it will not clear a freight car, so installation of high platforms out in the hinterlands, particularly on joint freight lines (single or double track) would require installation of a cost-prohibitive gantlet track on the active platform track(s) so that the freights can be shunted off to the side away from the platform for clearance. This track must be longer than the platform and would require power switches and interlocking, for a cost (nominal 1000' platform) of about $600-800K per track, or more. And there are other issues. For instance, here in TX such a high platform cannot be built legally except on a dedicated passenger station track; construction on a joint freight track violates the Texas Clearance Law. Technically, we have trouble with even 8" TOR platforms, but some in that range may have accidentally occurred.

And, above Orlando (in your area) that high level platform like at PHL would not work with the Superliners on 1&2. Nor would it work south of West Palm, because it blocks the doors on the TriRail bilevels.

The only other fixed alternative is a ramp and on-board bridge, which works fine as long as (1) the consist is fixed, (2) the HC door is always in the same place, and (3) that door can be accessed by a train going either direction without causing traffic/operational issues. While such a ramp works well in LRT and commuter/regional rail contexts, it is not well-suited to long distance intercity because none of the above 3 conditions is a given. And on a train with sleepers, you need at least two if the train stops once.

That leaves either a portable ramp or a lift, both of which are dependent on manpower, and both of which delay the train. Unfortunately, that's the price you have to pay. If your station is staffed, they should be prearranging the stop and setting up the lift to minimize delay. Sounds like that is not happening.

But be happy! Out here in the west where we don't deserve a staffed station, the disabled are, with only a few exceptions, simply out of luck unless you can rustle together a posse to lift the chair into the Superliner's vestibule.

But that's OK, because according to Amtrak and a lot of politicos (of both parties--let's not get a flaming contest going here), those people-shaped things you see in the windows of the train are actually either:

(1) painted on the window a la Lionel
(2) mass hallucinations
(3) very small, human shaped weather balloons
(4) a rare form of St Elmo's fire
(5) swamp gas

But definitely not people.

So see--it's a moot issue.

Happy traveling![banghead][banghead][banghead]

[jdamelio]

drephpe -
Yes it is a station problem. There is no staff. When the train is late too bad passengers can't do something to speed the process up while they wait. The train staff really has to scramble. Also it is single track at the station. That is what is nice about Jacksonville, Amtrak pulls off the main for the two station tracks. Although no high platforms there.

We don't see superliners here, just viewliners.

My impression that the two trips we have been on were near to full. What was good was that instead of two viewliner bedrooms a third car was added to the consists at the beginning. Maybe why Florida trains will survive. West of the Mississippi, good luck!!

[cas2176]

Just finished installing tactile surface in Pittsburgh. Milled existing platform and recessed tiles, a much better installation method I believe. Amtrak has different preferences for tactile surfaces depending on where the stations are located. Some are okay with tiles, some prefer the two part mix method. The width is two feet and there is a requirement for striping and stencilling in addition to the tactile surface.

[WMNB4THRTL]

While I am not in construction, or any related field, for that matter, I do believe that the angle/pitch/slope of the ramp is important? I know that's what I've come across several times recently when I was looking to acquire one. The materials kept referring to commercial buildings, etc. Good luck; I think it can be quite complicated but, as other have said, well worth it! P.S. I know; I need them!!

[blue streak 1]

Robs Caboose: I have some good news / bad news information. Someone did not do their homework. According to the Amtrak web site your group is not responsible for the platforms but since the city owns the station it is fully responsible for the station building.

Source? 

1. Gp to Amtrak. com

2. Click on Government affairs

3. Click reports and documents

4. Click "PRIIA submissions and reports

That will lead you to the report (read it carefully especially the appendicies)

A few facts in the report

Matoon had 32,818 passenger off and ons for FY 2010 an average of 2734/ month.

Matoon is responsible for station and parking facilities.

CN is involved somehow.

Amtrak is controlling agency of exact design of platform and any ADA compliant items. Please beware and do not do anything until they approve in writing!!!!!!!

So read the report, copy it, and  then go to the city and ask why they did not know this?

[inch53]

ROB,,,

 

Can’t help you the problem. But I haven’t been by there for almost a year and was wondering how the restoration was going ??

 

For anybody interested, here’s a couple pictures of the platforms

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/20268/title/nbound-cn-passing-the-mattoon-2cil-station/cat/500

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/19910/title/rail-fanning-2c-mattoon-2cil-/cat/500

 

mike

[schlimm]

drephpe

jdamelio--



While a high platform will certainly help you at PHL, you must remember that it will not clear a freight car, so installation of high platforms out in the hinterlands, particularly on joint freight lines (single or double track) would require installation of a cost-prohibitive gantlet track on the active platform track(s) so that the freights can be shunted off to the side away from the platform for clearance. This track must be longer than the platform and would require power switches and interlocking, for a cost (nominal 1000' platform) of about $600-800K per track, or more. And there are other issues. For instance, here in TX such a high platform cannot be built legally except on a dedicated passenger station track; construction on a joint freight track violates the Texas Clearance Law. Technically, we have trouble with even 8" TOR platforms, but some in that range may have accidentally occurred.

And, above Orlando (in your area) that high level platform like at PHL would not work with the Superliners on 1&2. Nor would it work south of West Palm, because it blocks the doors on the TriRail bilevels.

 

Please excuse my ignorance but I honestly don't quite understand how a high level platform doesn't meet freight car clearances.  Are freight cars wider than passenger cars?