Railroad Labor Strife Is Very Solvable!

[croteaudd]

Yes, I believe railroad labor conflicts are very solvable!

There is great disillusionment and conflict when there is no awareness of the fact that, normally, NEITHER management nor labor is the UNDERLYING cause of their problems.

When both management and labor perceive the reality of little known economic limitations, they then CAN come to have a perspective that promotes objectivity, unity, and a solution-minded outlook.

[Jackflash]

I suspect that you dont work in the industry
or are not from the "labor" side and dont see
the whole picture. I have been in the industry
26 years, but prior to becomming a railroader
I worked in the steel and shipbuilding industry
with a short tour in the building trades, and
believe me, I PROMISE no one else treats their
employees as bad as the railroads, you might ask
why on earth did you stay, a good question
I dont even know myself, probably above average
wages, AND things were a little bit better
when I started, things really started to turn
sour about the time the carriers took the
caboose off trains, and merged yard and road
seniorty (I give those examples as time frames)
I had already established myself by then
and gotten older too, in other words, I was
stuck where I was, unlikely to find another
job with the pay as good at my age.
I have seen several young men 25-30 years
old start out as trainmen and after two or
three months say "how do you fellows take this
crap" and we wouldnt see them again.
One of these guys was my conductor, while
unloading a coal train he secured a job for
himself at the power company.
In another posting at this site someone
stated when he was interviewing for a job
with the railroad the "official" doing the
interviewing was ranting and raving about
"I'll fire you for this and I fire you for
that" this is not the way you recruit people
for anything, but its the mind set that
most officials have (not all of them)
I could go on and on but I think I made my point
The employees on the railroad are not treated
as well as employees in (most) other industries.
jackflash

[Anonymous]

I will agree with you on that. I do not work for the railroad but I have 2 brothers that do. There always on call, which makes for a rough famly life. They have thick rule books they are responsible to learn. Managment peaple talk to them like they are 3 year olds. I ask them why they take it, there responce is "I need the money"

[Anonymous]

I'll second that motion! I do not work for the railroad, (thank god), but I do work in a "union" shop. I can say first hand, that the so-called "management vs. labor" issue is VERY real.
College educated "experts" with questionable knowledge of real-world situations, are constantly at odds with those who actually know what is going on.
Now, if a nice wood-veneer desk is akin to the cab of, say, an SD-40-2 grinding along with too much tonnage at 4:00 in the morning, and these "managers" were subjected to 8 hours off between assignments (not including commute time, or relaxing time at home), I think they might just see the light.
So, a couple of trains collide. All of the sudden, management will go to great lengths to place the blame on the crew. When I am deprived of the basic sleep that I need, for fear of being fired, I suppose I would get on board and do the best that I could. But this is NO way to treat a human being. And, yes, fatigue is the biggest factor in RR accidents. The folks with the 9-to-5 jobs just can't seem to understand that though.
I have known many people that worked on the RR, and I'll tell you right now, these people have absolutely no normal family life. So the next time some "desk-jockey" says that these folks are overpaid, or "coddled", all I can say is, walk a few miles in their shoes, THEN tell me how great it is.
Todd C.

[croteaudd]

Anger, anger, everywhere anger! But, does it make sense for two victims to kill each other off instead of taking united action to deal with the cause of their victimization, and constructively working towards mutual survival? Is there a certain predetermined destiny in all this, or do corporations and employees have free choice to act wisely or foolishly?

[Anonymous]

Corporations are free to do as they wish, as long as they don't violate any "laws", employees on the other hand, must either accept the managements policy, or quit and move elsewhere. I think all we need here, is a compromise of common sense, and common decency. These are things that unfortunately have been lacking in the labor/ management relationship for a very long time.
I can only hope for better times ahead, but, I doubt much will change.
Todd C.

[croteaudd]

To Todd C.:

Both “compromise of common sense” and “common decency” truly are words of wisdom. The original post spoke of “little known economic limitations.” I believe once individuals comprehend those limitations, their whole perspective can change for the better, a perspective that can impel them to do exactly what YOU said!

[Jackflash]

Boy, it sure "aint" hard to spot the fellows
who dont have to put up with the crap day in and day out, it sure is easy to have a 9 to 5 and
say corp. can do what ever they want to, the
employees can just move on, I say the corp has a responsibility to get rid of the jack-asses
that create these problems ( you know who they
are) the people out there moving the freight
at two in the morning (Christmas day) are the
bread and butter of the industry, these are the
people that should be kept happy and secure,
but no, some jack-*** abolishes a 11 PM switcher
causing trains to back up out on the main
and others not able to get out of the yard gets
an "ATTA_BOY" from the manager because he has
reduced labor cost, and in 5 days the job is
back on and the jack-*** says its the unions
fault instead of just saying he made a mistake
WALK WITH ME FOR ONE MILE,, jackflash

[croteaudd]

That is what happens when management and labor are in ignorance of the underlying cause, as mentioned in the initial post.

[Anonymous]

Oh give me a break.Easy to find fixes for a problem when your outside looking in.

[Anonymous]

Well, here's an idea. Lets make all the 4 foot, 8 in one half inches ribbons of steel the domain of the federal government, not unlike the interstate highway system. That way, anybody that can scrape up enough money for a couple second-hand SD-40-2's
can get out there and move some freight for a profit.
Just kidding, that would never work. Or would it? Not that much different than the modern trucking industry. And I'm certain that the rail customer would benefit from the competitive marketing. Just think of the variety of paint schemes we would see then, no more "yellow-blues", we might photograph old geeps with candy-apple paint with more shine than the top of my head! And the rails would be a real competitive alternative to the interstate. Of course I'm not likeing the vision of a bunch of "don't waste any money on maintenance" operators out there, there needs to be certain requirements to operate. Safety is the biggest concern. And of course, the operating crew needs to be checked out.
Just some thoughts guys,

[Anonymous]

Jackflash, you're right on. Croteudd, when were you last examined??

[wabash1]

unfortunately its is management that is lacking common sense and the common deceny. if they would only listen to the guys and gals who do this job day in and out, things would or could go smoother. but we have to many collage educated book smart people out here with no mechanical back ground who couldnt even change a light bulb calling the shots. problem is it dont and wont work the way they want it done. so common decency is to fire the people that have done the work for years. couse i am the boss and i will make your life miserable i will change the world over night. they hate it when my answer is i am here for 12 hours and i wont work past it. It is so much fun to break in a new trainmaster, we have went thru 8 in the last 4 years. and by june we will have 3 new guys again couse the ones we got wont listen either.

[croteaudd]

Tunafish:

Do you know how to explain the original post? Do you admire those that tear down and cause war, or those that offer solutions?

[Anonymous]

Bobbishna, do you work on the RR? What in the world are you thinking saying that the road should be open for any clown to put a couple motors out there and haul freight. If that were to happen, do you know how many idiots would be out there causing damage to anything in their path? That would be the definition of cluster$#@%. Geez, switching effeciently and safely is an art. You just don't jump out there and "check out," the crew and turn them loose with a 200+ ton loco after they will most likely have not had the proper training (conductor on the BNSF 13-15 weeks, engineer a heck of alot more than that). If something like that were to come about us guys that have been properly trained and seasoned would be replaced by a bunch of wannabes that wouldn't know kicking a car from a wet fart!

[Saxman]

J,

Look yourself in the mirror and answer truthfully this question: It is ALWAYS mangements fault and I have never participated in anything that could be looked at as job delaying tactics? Your statement: "It is so much fun to break in a new trainmaster" pretty well gives me the answer. As you point your finger at management, stop and look at how many are pointing at you!

Now before you jump to conclusion that I am not a "rail" and do not understand, Yes I am! And, I am sick to death of the tactics by BOTH sides. Also, I have been on both sides as a Road Foreman and brakeman, conductor and engineer.

Examples:

One year I did not receive my signing bonus on the contract. I contacted my local UTU chairman. His answer was: "You are now in management and will get it when you come back to the ground." Fact was, I was on special assignment with the rules department. I contacted the head of Rules and training. He made a few phone calls and low and behold, I got my money. And from the "enemy" at that. My over riding question has always been: Who told payroll not to pay my signing bonus? I can only come to one conclusion.

One of my last battles as Road Foreman had to do with the proper way to MU "dead locomotives." Someone had convinced the uppers that the delay to a particular train was the engeineers MUing B/O power at a particular terminal. Well a plan was deviesed to only connect the brake pipe and main reservior line, cut out the automatic and leave the independent in lead. I stated my opposition to this and gave the reasons why. I was told this is what the GM wanted and we would make it work. Needless to say a report came back that a locomotive was found with thermal cracks. I traced it back to this particular terminal two days prior and being P/U there. This practice stopped shortly there after.

Only one sided huh?

[Anonymous]

What kind of medication are you on???

[wabash1]

I am avalible and work for the most part 7 days a week. i just went thru my time book and it is 70 to 75 days before i get a day off. I dont care who marks off, I figure if i put that kind of service in i should get a day when i need it. But us guys working like this cant get days off when needed couse you have regular cry babies. who the bosses pamper and give all the breaks to. I needed off for personal reasons and in 75 days that I worked there was 2 times i needed 1 day each . i was told i could be let off that he needed the man power. only 7 men on the off board at 730am in the morning i wasnt allowed off. by that afternoon 15 guys on the off board and the next day add 6 more, Then he has the balls to come to me 4 months later and apologize for his oversight that he didnt look at my work history and should have given me the day off. My reply was simple what is done is done, I Dont care if your trains get moved, I dont care what others do, Just dont come to me for any favors couse i wont do any. and walked away.I missed 2 funerals this year and a grand baby getting born becouse of him. And that is just this boss. us guys who keep a low profile get screwed on a regular basis, So i work by the rule book, takes more time yes. i dont get relieved couse i always make it in. In other words i do my job, And you are right i am tired of the back room agreements that both sides do in violation of the agreement.

[Jackflash]

Read your posting concerning MU of dead or B/O
locomotives, as stated, this was the way
I've been taught to do it. ie, set it up for
lead/cut out and connect the main reservior
lines, you say this is wrong, how would you
do it. thanks, jackflash

[Anonymous]

Let me say right off, I do NOT work for any railroad. I am, a "blue-collar" union man though. I know how management can, and will mistreat their employees. But, I don't think that anyone is holding a gun to your head forcing you to work on the railroad. If you don't like it, move on. I myself would like to work on the RR, but probably not make a lifelong career out of it. This seems to be a job for young men. I would most likely put in about ten years, then get out. Sure, I moan and complain about my current job too, but if it gets THAT bad, I'll move on. I have a nice plate of cheese to go with your whine.

[wabash1]

sure is easy to judge someone when you have no idea what they are talking about. did i say i hated my job. Ill answer that for you NO... i would not work 75 days without a day off if i didnt. But if i work to cover the cry babies you saw me write about, and needed a day off and couldnt get it, well i wont do any favors for that boss again. end of statement. and i am not the only one who this has happened to. And as far as you thinking it is a job for young men that is the ones all railroads are having problems with 90% of them wont work. but since you are a 9-5 union man you wouldnt have any idea of what i am talking about. as for the cheese ill take it it will go good with the ham.

[Anonymous]

Bobbishna, first, if you don't work for the RR keep your opinion to yourself. I too worked in a union shop (I'm very pro-union) and it was nothing like it is on the RR. Sure you would like to work on the RR for a few years, most train dazzled foamers would. That "If you don't like it move on," statement is ignorant. Some of these guys are close to retirement and that may be all that they have done. Is there no respect for a man that can hold the same job for 30 years? Most of these college grad types change jobs very often. That cheese and whine statement was over the top. That is a direct shot at somebody and is not needed. This is the exact reason why many of us rails don't like foamers! You speak out of turn.

[Saxman]

Jackflash,

My problem with the MUing practice on my railroad was the possibility of the engine brakes not releasing properly after an automatic brake pipe reduction as they may become over charged from the main reservior. Also the chance of run-in as these locomotives would set up differently than the trailing cars. Remember this practice was adopted after a trainmaster convinced those above him that the train delays were from MUing locomotives. Never mind there were other problems such as: cars not ready by carmen, B/O's to kick out of the pick up, waiting for yard assignments to clear and crossing the yard to the engine house to get the engines and return to the train. (I spent WAY to much time tracking the delays to this train.)

With that said, I would MU the locomotives the proper way when picking up on line. Brake Pipe, Main reservoir, Independent Apply and Release and Actuating and trailing units cut-out and in trail.

To "haul it as a box car" one really needs to use the dead engine feature. One of the key points of this is that the compressor of the locomotive is off line. Also, the main reservoirs are drained and then will be filled to 40 lbs less than brake pipe through the dead engine feature. Reducing the chance of over charging and not releasing fully.

To close, while building my case, I called Westinghouse Air Brake. They agreed with my summation and recommended that locomotives be MUed properly unless there is an air brake problem then use the dead engine feature.

After I tracked the locomotive that had the thermal cracks on the wheels back to being picked up three days prior at this particular terminal, a circular came down to stop this practice. I had only one call that said: "You know, I think you were right." To late boys and girls I am back in the seat and it is another Road Foreman's turn in the barrel.

[Jackflash]

Yes I know about the dead engine feature, we were
taught that this is used when you couldnt MU
the main reservior hoses between a good operating
locomotive and one that was dead in tow, such as
if the dead engine was back in the train not
coupled to the operating consist. I know when
doing this with a dead locomotive with electro-
pneumatic brakes you must open up the AR and
ACT. MU hoses to the atmosphere, this is
interesting, food for thought. thanks jackflash

[Jackflash]

wonder why this one died so fast it was just
getting interesting

[wabash1]

i think it is due to the fact we argue with managment all day why come here to argue with other managment type on are off time. the just of the matter is managment might mean well and have great intentions. but have no clue to reality. and to do the work of 3 with 1 guy is asking for trouble. lost production and higher cost. and the people who do the most complaining are teh guys who want to keep the jobs we have. not becouse rcl might be better it is becouse we are better.but it wont matter the old heads will have the jobs the new guys will be on the street.

[Saxman]

J,

Your comments are on the mark. Coming to this board should be a source of information and a form of relaxation from the insanity of our everyday work world.

[edblysard]

But you see, railroading has its own culture, with two sub cultures. The railroad culture has been this way since the beginning, and it dosnt want any outsiders looking in, its a closed society, very much like IBM. Even though labor and managment disagree on almost every point, they both agree that they like things the way they are, and dont want anyone to try to change anything. The sub cultures are of course the labor culture, with its own odd rituals and code of behaviors, and managments culture, with it strict codes and old management styles. Neither side will change, because it is profitable to both to remain static. The railroad culture relies on the collective bargianing agreements to operate almost outside the laws and rules which goveren every other business. Because railroads are still seen by most people to be public utilities, regulated by the goverment, instead of proffit driven publicly owened business, abuses from both cultures abound. Name me one other business which is allowed to require it employees to work eight hours, with only a 20 minute lunch break? Or twelve hrs with only two such breaks. Where else can you find employees who can be ordered to work every 8 hours, with only 8 hours off between shifts? So why does the labor culture allow such "abuse"? Because the money is good when you work like that. Management likes it this way too, because they dont have to follow the rules of behaviour managers of business have to. The view that train crews are nothing more than expendable and replacable equipment has been there so long, its ingrained into almost every decision they make.
Progressive disipline dosnt exsist. Any officer can fire you for almost any reason they choose. And because both cultures operate outside of regular business rules, and because seniority is a driving factor in almost everything, often the people running things on both sides are not the best qualified, only the oldest. It is almost a feudal culture, with power given not to the best, but to the guys who stick around the longest. And both sides still act as if, because the railroads have been here forever, it will allways be here, forever. Neither side will ever budge an inch, for fear of losing the power they have within this culture. Ever notice that women make up such a small percentage of railroaders? Both cultures try to run off any woman who trys to join. Ever notice that MOW crews are almost all blacks, while trains crews are slowly intergrating? Change at a railroad is almost impossible to create. Both sides will spend more energy and effort resisting change, even changes that are good for everyone, because their respective cultures forbid change at all. And they will happily sit there, each accuseing the other of trying to cheat one or the other out of money, while their industry dies of inertia.

[croteaudd]

“And they will happily sit there … while their industry dies of inertia.” Happily or growling is debatable, but … Picture management sitting on one rail, labor across four feet and some inches on the other. A loose boxcar is rolling toward them. Once someone points out the danger to both, would wisdom take over, or would they prefer to still focus on each other?

[Saxman]

My vote is that they will focus on each other.