The biggest Jerk! Don't go into Wheaton!

[Glen Ellyn]

Today, I was standing in a parking lot where I am getting pictures in Wheaton now, and this cop is hastling me. "Hey! What the hell are you doing?" He really said that. I had a scanner in my hane and camera strapped to my shoulder. I said, "I am wating for the trains. i think their will be a special one today." He says, "This is UP property, get out." If infact the parking lot were UP property, their would have been a sign, I would have known about it, and their wouldn't be a basketball hoop nailed to a building, or 2 Ford pick up trucks. He said, "Leave, or I'll have you arrested." I moved to the other side of the road where their is another lot, and he comes back and says, "This is still UP property, I am glad you moved, but get out!" I was on a public road when he came up to me and said this, and stayed on the road. Then I go to the Wheaton train station, he is their too. He says, "This is METRA property, leave." I say, "This is public property hosted by METRA and UP. I don't want to be mean, but stop hasteling me. I don't need to tell you you'r job, but if I need to, I will!" He stormed off when I said, "You think you know what is owned by who, but I was on public property, unless it has your name everywhere, I am fine!" That guy had to have been the biggest jerk I have ever met. This was in Wheaton Illinois, for a word of the weise, yell at the cops their if they get started with you, or else, you will be in a cell the rest of the day. These people are more serious then METRA!

[BNSFGP38]

Was there a point to this lunaticish rant?

[DPD1]

I would have got his badge number and gone down to the police station and demanded to file a complaint... Especially if I was a citizen of that city. Which I assume he didn't know if you were or not, so obviously he would treat his own citizens that way too. Then go home and write letters to anybody and everybody associated with the town... Chamber of Commerce, City Hall, local store owners associations on that street... Explain to them how a guy who represents their city, is spending their tax money by being paid to treat visitors like garbage... and how you're planing on telling anybody you know that's what they're in for when visiting the area.

Dave
-DPD Productions - Featuring the NEW TrainTenna LP Directional RR Radio Monitoring Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/dpdp/

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

Was there a point to this lunaticish rant?

Point?

Oh yea. I will be very careful to stand in PUBLIC areas and keep those tracks in view. Along with a pen and paper ready to write badge numbers down. I doubt that I would want to go to Wheaton Illinios (which I am sure is a very fine town) to watch trains.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DPD1

I would have got his badge number and gone down to the police station and demanded to file a complaint... Especially if I was a citizen of that city. Which I assume he didn't know if you were or not, so obviously he would treat his own citizens that way too. Then go home and write letters to anybody and everybody associated with the town... Chamber of Commerce, City Hall, local store owners associations on that street... Explain to them how a guy who represents their city, is spending their tax money by being paid to treat visitors like garbage... and how you're planing on telling anybody you know that's what they're in for when visiting the area.

Dave
-DPD Productions - Featuring the NEW TrainTenna LP Directional RR Radio Monitoring Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/dpdp/

Naa,He's just power hungry.

[gabe]

I don't mean to be aggressive against anyone's position, but I am not sure the cop did anything illegal. And the statements about getting aggressive with the cop should be taken with the highest amount of reservation.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Gabe correct me if im wrong but,If someone where on public property and if a cop asked that person to leave isn't kind of childish? I mean come on now.

[Junctionfan]

It is illegal to harass citizens without due cause. I am more then sure of this because I read the papers and I listen to news of the U.S. I have heard the outcomes of some of the cases in Los Angelas for example so I would say that unless Illinois law is different then California law, the police officer did in fact break the law and could be suspended for it.

The fact that he didn't arrest him even though he was challenging the officer should tell you something right away. The officer new he didn't have just cause to arrest him so he gave up the "dirty harry" act.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

I don't mean to be aggressive against anyone's position, but I am not sure the cop did anything illegal. And the statements about getting aggressive with the cop should be taken with the highest amount of reservation.

Gabe

I agree. Contempt of cop is an easy way to wind up in the Graybar Inn as a guest of the County...

LC

[CShaveRR]

The jail in DuPage County isn't too far from the tracks--maybe you could get lucky from a northward-facing window.

Seriously, a less confrontational attitude, or a different choice of photo spots (I doubt that anyone would have bugged you on the Prairie Path bridge, for example) might have been helpful.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Gabe correct me if im wrong but,If someone where on public property and if a cop asked that person to leave isn't kind of childish? I mean come on now.

I am sorry, my mind doesn't think in terms of “childish and non-childish;” it thinks in terms of what one may legally do and what one may not legally do.

From the scenario described above, it seems to me that the officer probably had the legal right to do what he did. I would also point out that, in many states, resisting an officer’s order is just as illegal if the officer didn't have the right to arrest you in the first place. The law wants you to challenge police officers in court or through complaints, not by on-the-scene confrontations.

Being on public property is often a safe haven for rail fans. But, it is not an automatic pass. For instance, you can be arrested for loitering on public property in many instances. The more "functional" the "public property" in question is, the more the government has the right to police it. Just because the train station is public doesn't mean gangs can hang out there, bums can sleep on the benches, you can set up your own photography studio, etc.

My point: DO NOT BECOME AGGRESSIVE WITH THE OFFICER. If you want to photograph trains at a particular spot and the officer wont let you, seek permission from someone who has authority to give it. Better yet, politely ask the officer to whom you might ask to get permission. Such a non-confrontational approach might get the officer to let you take pictures. If you are going to be aggressive with an officer, you better be absolutely certain you have the right to do what you are doing.

As for why the officer didn't arrest anyone, he probably didn't think it was worth his time for the paper work, which leads me back to my earlier point—don't get him mad enough to make it worth the time for the paper work.

There is a point where officers don't have a right to make you do something, and I am all about making sure officers do not cross that line. The scenario described above is, at the very best, a grey area. If you want to risk your liberty when you are not certain you have a right to challenge the officer, do it at your peril.

Gabe

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

It is illegal to harass citizens without due cause. I am more then sure of this because I read the papers and I listen to news of the U.S. I have heard the outcomes of some of the cases in Los Angelas for example so I would say that unless Illinois law is different then California law, the police officer did in fact break the law and could be suspended for it.

The fact that he didn't arrest him even though he was challenging the officer should tell you something right away. The officer new he didn't have just cause to arrest him so he gave up the "dirty harry" act.

See last post.

[edbenton]

No worse than dealing with the Berwyn IL City Atty. I had a minor incedent invoving a tree I knocked off about a 1 square foot section of bark. Now here is were it gets interesting the tree was on private property in a yard 10 ft inside the sidewalk and i was charged with damage to city propety. I was billed 195.00 for the removeal of said limb my bosses insurance company paid the bill. Just to get all that done took 5 months. I went into court after the 4th mouth got tired of the City atty antics so I said lets take it before the judge.

That ******e City atty dismissed the charges on the guy ahead of me Same BADGE # as me but mine he contines for another month. The next month I had done EVERYTHING that the city had asked me to do execpt kiss the mayors butt on main st. I got the smae judge and showed him the recepit from the city that the bill was paid. The judge goes I am dissmissing the charges against me starts to hand me my licsence back. The City atty rips the licencse out of the judegs hand and goes he will get this back when I am good and F*****G ready to give it back you don't run this courtroom I do. The judge looked him in the eye and said Balliff show the Prosecuter to the Gray bar hotel under the charge of contempt of court and assualt on a judge. Then the judge threw out every case from the city of Berwyn that day. So it is not just Wheaton that has an attitude from city employees must be the air or water that turns them into GOD [soapbox][:(!]. Sorry about the rant just wanted to show you were not alone in dealing with idiots.

[gabe]

I can't imagine an attorney ripping something out of the judges hands and saying "I run this courtroom." It is simply inconceivable.

Gabe

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Gabe correct me if im wrong but,If someone where on public property and if a cop asked that person to leave isn't kind of childish? I mean come on now.

Just adding in my 2cents here but even if the cop was being a classic example of a power mad a$$hole, yelling back at him is a very bad idea...its a great excuss for him to feel "threatened by the suspects actions" and introduce you to business end of Mr Nightstick!

Its always better to keep a even tone of voice and not act aggressively, you can be firm in your point of view but dont go ballistic on him, some cops just live for confrontations like this so they can act out there aggressions on someone, anyone... you, me, or the nun who spit on the sidewalk...

[chad thomas]

Well after a trip to jail I would imagine he would not try that again. I've seen people do some really stupid things in court. One time this punk was facing GTA charges. I was shocked when he said to the judge"I'm going to kill you when I get out". The judge replied "Well than, I'll just make sure you don't get out" and gave him 2 consecutive life sentences without paroll. How stupid can you get.

[Randy Stahl]

Sounds like the world wrestling federation school of courtroom protocall..... would have loved to see it.
Randy

[selector]

You get more flies with honey that you do with vinegar.

General rule: defying those in authority is not good sense. Can really ruin one's month...if your case is over by then.

My approach would have been to agree immediately to move, express regret for any transgression, and then to put it back onto the cop by asking him, "Where would you like me to go to where I can still get a good picture of this rare special train? You see, I am a big train fan, and would hate to miss an opportunity."

He might have screamed at you, but chances are good that he might have been mollified and given you a suggestion that became HIS acceptable place for you to be.

[Anonymous]

You know what? Wheaton probably does not cover the entire state of illinois.

I would simply relocate outside of town limits somewhere else further down the rail line where it may still be legal to get the shot.

I would rather do it within viewing distance from the city line. But that's just me.

[Kurn]

A sad commentary on how things are today.I suppose people will blame it on increased security since 9/11,but I suspect it's more about power than anything else.

[Junctionfan]

My exact opinion is that is what internal affairs is for. The police's police. Give them a call and let them deal with it in a hearing if necessary.

If that doesn't work, give a letter to the mayor and the city council. Give a letter to the chamber of commerce. Report to the media. Find some civil rights group that will step up to the plate and go from there. Don't yell or scream or anything like that but you can ask politely on what grounds he has for removing you on public property just in case you are violating the law and tell them you are sorry and even ask for advice for an alternative way to take a picture-diplomacy and respect is never usually a bad idea.

I still say that the guy was violating civil rights and without just cause. People like that give decent hard-working and community loving police officers in general a bad name and for that they should be very much ashamed. I have met many nice police officers who couldn't be nicer if they were Santa Clause and then there are those who hate the police because of one unfortunate incident where a bad apple has spoiled it. Now the nice officers are unjustly hated and untrusted just because of a certain jerk with a badge. It make investigations of crimes more difficult now because the witnesses are unwilling to cooperate with "those darn flat-foots" potentially allowing the escape of a dangerous suspect. It really bothers me when that happens.

[Anonymous]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Probably another example of 9-11 hysteria being once again extended to the average American citizen.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by amtrak-tom

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Probably another example of 9-11 hysteria being once again extended to the average American citizen.

Agree! and besides the cops wife, who wears the pants at home had cut him off that morning and he had to take his lack of power at home out on somebody.

While patrol cars in a lot of instances have cameras and recording equipment that in addition to be used in trials as evidence, also provides evidence of police misconduct, when misconduct occurs. Too bad foot patrol cops can't be outfitted with similar equipments to critique their sometimes offensive behavior.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

Well after a trip to jail I would imagine he would not try that again. I've seen people do some really stupid things in court. One time this punk was facing GTA charges. I was shocked when he said to the judge"I'm going to kill you when I get out". The judge replied "Well than, I'll just make sure you don't get out" and gave him 2 consecutive life sentences without paroll. How stupid can you get.

[(-D]Ya that is a sure good way to get your self locked up for a very long time.

[MP173]

Life changed after 9-11-01.

Who would have thought on September 10, 2001 that four jets could be flown into the WTC, Pentagon, and came seriously close to the White House?

I am not here to discuss the philosophical pros and cons of personal freedoms. The reality is simple, things have changed.

Ask Mark Hemphill about personal freedoms...he should give a pretty good point of view.

ed

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

QUOTE: Originally posted by amtrak-tom

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Probably another example of 9-11 hysteria being once again extended to the average American citizen.

Agree! and besides the cops wife, who wears the pants at home had cut him off that morning and he had to take his lack of power at home out on somebody.

While patrol cars in a lot of instances have cameras and recording equipment that in addition to be used in trials as evidence, also provides evidence of police misconduct, when misconduct occurs. Too bad foot patrol cops can't be outfitted with similar equipments to critique their sometimes offensive behavior.

OK, now I will be less polite—as you are far from polite to the officer in question and base it on a circumstance in which none of us know anything about. The next time someone trespasses on your property and you call a cop, I hope the cop tells you to stick it in your ear.

The original post did not indicate that he had any idea to whom the parking lots belonged. His biggest argument was they didn't look like UP parking lots. As far as anyone knows, the officer was doing his job.

As for the Metra Station, I agree with others that it would be courteous if he would have let him stay there and take the pictures. But, neither of us know whether the officer had the right to kick the person off the station. Just because property is public doesn't mean you can do whatever you want on it. Metra may very well have a policy against non-ticket holders being at their station. For liability reasons, they might have a very good reason for their policy.

If I have a congressional fetish, can I simply take my camera into a session of congress and start taking pictures of congresswomen and yell at the security guard that it is public property when I am booted? I think not.

I don't know what you do for a living, but you can bet there is someone who knows nothing about your job and gives you a hard time when they don't know what they are talking about. After what you said about that officer and his family, you now deserve it.

Gabe

[Junctionfan]

With all due respect Gabe, there is a great difference in taking pictures inside of a government institution particularly a government legislature and a train in a non-classified area in an area that may not have no tresspassing signs up in an area that is easily accessable and is located in a parking lot. Railroad property is usually well marked particularly in this age and can be very black and white (tresspassing or not tresspassing).

A friend of mine was watching trains at the station parkinglot after hours (station was closed). He was approached by two police cars; officers asked him why he was there. He told them what he was doing; he even showed him an Athearn Genesis locomotive. They were satisfied and even particularly fascinated with the model and away they went.

I was in Buffalo along with some 2 other friends. We went to the CSX Frontier Yard at Broadview Street. We were not tresspassing but we were watched by both CSX police and Buffalo Police but not for long as they were satisfied and continued their patrols.

In Fostoria, we saw both CSX police and NS police. NS police is fairly known for their lack of patience with railfans tresspassing. We were not, so they left us alone. In fact they waved at us and smiled. Certainly nothing what I expected from any security/ police authority in post 9-11 era. Police because of their trainning, general develop a keen instinct of who is a trouble-maker and who is legit. Even a rookie can usually tell. I asked a friend of mine who is a police constable a similar question concerning people in general and he told me basically the same thing. So yes I have done some of my home work before I am writing here. Since I will get the same kind of trainning as a customs officer, I will know that too. The course has several psychology units; in it, it has a unit on how to prepare the officer on how to read body language. In a police academy, I would imagine that there would quite a bit of units like that as well.

I don't know what Illinois laws say about this incident as far as rights of arrest, tresspassing etc. I am not aware of any police incidents off hand in Canada that involved railfans. It doesn't even sound much like a post 9-11 hysteria. It sounds like without more information like a grumpy police officer as most police officers I have seen or heard about anyways don't act that way even when the suspect was in fact breaking a law because it is not professional.

[Glen Ellyn]

I didn't se his badge number, Be careful of cops, stand in public areas. Point, he is a jerk.

[jeaton]

A DA losing his cool and yelling at the Judge seems kind of far fetched, but I guess it could happen.

When I hear stories about someone dissing a judge, I really like the part where the judge gets to tell the person that they are in contempt. and they are going to be incarcerated. It is especially fun when the person cited learns for the first time about a judge's powers in such situations.

Jay

[selector]

Yeah, I can just see the judge recounting the episode to a few of his buddies at the "Club" that evening, and getting high-fives all around.

Moral of the story: Defy cops at your peril. Oh, and judges, too. They have the capacity to make your life miserable, just because you disgreed with them telling you to get lost.

I have a Master of Arts degree in Conflict Analysis and Management. As I said in my last post, you can use common sense to gain an ally in these situations, and therefore get reasonably good pix WITH the support of an otherwise intractable peace officer, or you can bluff and bluster, and hope to hell a judge agrees with you when you get to squeek out your side of the story. Good luck.