The Trains of Grand Central Terminal

[Junctionfan]

What all trains ran in this station in the 50s? Was there other railroads that used this station other than New York Central?

[tree68]

Trains did a big article about GCT a few years ago - check the Index of Magazines.

[oltmannd]

The New Haven ran into GCT, too. But other than that, unless you count the Times Square IRT shuttle and the 6th Ave IND (?) subway, that's all I'm aware of.

Trains that used GCT in the 1950s would have run up the Hudson Line or the Harlem Line on the NYC. The NH trains would have run up the Harlem Line to Woodlawn to reach NH rails.

The trains up the Harlem line went as far as Chatham NY where it intersected with the Boston and Albany (part of NYC). The trains up the Hudson Line would be all the main line trains to Albany and points west (Buffalo, Detroit, Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Louis, etc.) At Albany, there were through cars to and from the D&H trains to Montreal. I'm sure there were thru cars to and from the west, too, but I don't know any details.

[daveklepper]

NYC: Monitor roof mu-cars, short about 68 feet. About 1954 arch roof 79 foot air conditioned picture window mu cars began arriving. MU trains did not use Mott Haven Yard in general, used the lower level at GCT, and a small yard to the east of the platform tracks, and the yards at the suburban end points.

Transfer runs between GCT and Mott Haven were pulled by S-motors, the original electrification odd looking locomoitves (a stubby, non-streamlined version of GG-1 architecture). I think the wheel arrangement was 2-6-2. Back-up moves were avoided, and when one entered the platform to board a through train at GTC one first saw the S-motor that had brought the train in from Mott Haven. Exception was the 20th Century Limited where the S-motor cut off in the throat and the road power T-1, later P-1, or another S-1 would pu***he train in so the tail sign of the obs would greet passengers. Through cars on the Central included MP-TP cars for the Texas Eagle on the Southwestern Limited, red Canadian Pacific cars on the Wolverine cut off at Buffalo for Toronto, and modernized heavyweight D&H cars for the Lautentian and Montreal Limited. For a short time in the 50's Rutland cars would occasionally be seen. The Central's own passenger equipment included lots of two-tone grey lightweight cars, including those for the Century, the Budd cars for the Empire State Expres with some extras used on other trains, and lots of regular monitor roof coaches. The Lake Placid and Montreal NYC trains may still have used old heavyweight Pullmans for much of the 50's, also to places like Messina. T-motors were largely replaced by P-motors, big 4-6-6-4 machines, when the Cleveland Terminal electrification was scrapped.

The New Haven's original long 79-foot steel open-platform MU cars had been pretty much confined to the Danbury and New Haven shuttles, and most mu's were the conventional monitor roof and arch roof 79-foot green cars, non-air-conditioned. Toward the end of the 50's the 4400 silver sided fluted "wash boards" came. (Perhaps I am mistaken and these came around 1962?) The post war 8600 silver fluted sided coahces and matching parlors, diners, grill cars, and parlor-baggage, and two round-end obsesrvations for the Merchants Limited had already arrived, supllementing the some 250 earlier prewar green "American Flyer" cars of similar design (vestibules on both ends, unusual for a lighweight car). Still lots of the old monitor roof non-ariconditioned cars around, and the New Haven definitely did use old standard Pullmans into the '60's into GCT (I rode them). But there were the post war silver sided 10-and-6 sleepers and the "Bay" serieis with sections, roomettes, and bedrooms. The New Haven handled an occasional through Boston and Maine and Manie Central and Candian Nations car. The New Haven used wood cleristory roof baggage cars up to 1955. Before FL-9's began arriving about 1958, locomotives were the box cab 2-6-2-2-6-2 EP-2, the 4-6-6-4 EP-3, and the similar but streamlined EP-4. But all transfer runs to and from Mott Haven were handled by the New York Central S-1's.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The S-motors were built in 1906 with a 1-D-1 wheel arrangement, later converted to a 2-D-2 arrangement to improve riding qualities. They had a gearless drive, which was a major contribution to their incredible longevity. A few lasted long enough to turn up on the Conrail roster in active duty, although none received blue paint.

[jchnhtfd]

In many ways there were two Grand Central Terminals in the '50s -- plus Penn Station, of course, a few blocks away. The upper level of GCT handled the long-distance trains mentioned by Dave -- all New York Central, but many of them carried through Pullmans for other destinations as he notes. The lower level handled all the commuter stuff; mostly NYC, but with a good fraction of New Haven commuters (all MU equipment as I recall). Penn handled through and 'long distance' New Haven passenger service -- almost anything that terminated or originated east of New Haven, CT (at that time the end of wire), as well as all Long Island Railroad commuters. Penn also handled all PRR trains, of course.

Things have changed, though... Amtrak now uses Penn exclusively (in some ways not such a bad change -- the ride up the west side of Manhattan is nice in its way! But Penn Station is one of the sleaziest ways to arrive in a big city that I know of... come to think of it, though, Montreal isn't really a whole lot better architecturally, although a lot cleaner and nicer), and GCT is all commuter now. There is a plan afoot -- although where the money is coming from I don't know -- to complete an East River tunnel line to GCT, so some Long Island trains can get to GCT and take some of the pressure off Penn.

[martin.knoepfel]

I thought they already built the East River tunnel to GCT, together with a highway-tunnel.
However, GCT would still remain a stub-end-station.

[daveklepper]

Excuse my corrections: About half the Boston trains ran to Penn Station, the Federal, Senator, Quaker, Colonial, William Penn, Patriot. The Merchants Limited, Yankee Clipper, Owl, Naragansett, Bankers (to Spirngfield), Nut Megger (local), Clam Digger (local) and some others ran to Grand Central. The Montrealer was a Washington train and ran to Penn, but the daytime Ambassador went to Grand Central. Also the State of Maine and while it ran the Day Express to Portland via Worcester. All New Haven throught trains to GCT used the upper level like the NYC through trains. This included the Springfield service and even the Pittsfield Housatonic River trains. Also, some of the New Haven Springfield trains ran through to Boston on the NYC's B&A and tickets for these trains could be had at either the New Haven ticket window on one side of the concourse or the NYC's on the other side. The lower level did not have just mu trains, because some suburban trains were locomotive hauled. Specifically the NYC's trains to Peekskille and Poughkeepsie and Brewster. The Chatham trains left from the upper level and were considered long distance. The New Haven trains to Waterbury were suburban trains locomotive hauled on the lower level. Other than the Waterbury trains, all New Haven trains on the lower level were mu's. It was not until Penn Central days that all Boston trains got shifted to Penn Stration. At the same time, GG1-s replaced all New Haven power on these trains west of New Haven, and most FL9-s got shifted to ex NYC Poughkeepsie, Peekskill, and Brewster service, with some retained on the New Haven for work east of New Haven and on the Waterbury trains. Most Harford Springfield service was reduced to shuttles to New Haven. East and north of New Haven ex-PRR and NYC E units became most prevelant, along with the road switchers..

Still, in my frequent travels on the New Haven, I preferred the Penn Station trains because of simpler subway connections to and from my parents' house and the fine view of Manhattan from the Hell Gate Bridge.

[Anonymous]

The tunnel under the East River was completed quite a few years ago. It has two levels: the upper level is used by a subway line and the lower is unused. The lower level is designed to bring LIRR commuter traffic into an extension of GCT.

Although the tunnel itself is built, the connections on both ends have yet to be constructed.

Note that the LIRR trains will not come into GCT itself or use any existing trackage at GCT. There will be a new stub end terminal built, I think in the Madison Ave area. Note that the third rail used by LIRR and Metro North are not compatible and so the equipment is not interchangeable.

[Junctionfan]

Which locomotive is those E units that looks like they have 20 or so axles? I think I saw one of those in a picture switching some baggage cars toward an annex facility I believe some place in New York.

I'm pretty sure it was New York because it didn't look like Dearborn in Chicago.

[jchnhtfd]

Dave -- you have better information than I do -- your corrections are most appreciated, at least by me!

[daveklepper]

At the same time I appreciated having my memory refreshed that the S-1 motors were 2-8-2's. Tjhe T-1's and T-2's must have been 4-8-4's. Interestingly, the S-1's, T-1's, and T-2's had two tiny pantographs on the roof for contacting the "overhead third rail" where lots of switches close tegether make the third rail gaps too long.

[Junctionfan]

How many tracks did Grand Central set aside for the handling of mail and baggage?

[daveklepper]

Baggage was removed and added on the same platform as passengers. Battery-powered electric luggage carriers, very quiet and with very low floors, were used. Mail was generally handled in part the same way, but also the most east of the underground yard tracks (Track 1?) east of the platform tracks. No New Haven mail was handled at GCT, only NYC. NYNH&H mail was handled at Penn Station.

[Overmod]

Yeesh, Dave!

There's ample cause for confusion here, perhaps. The ORIGINAL T-motors, from 1906, were 1-D-1, but were rapidly rebuilt to class S-2 with four-wheel trucks (that look 'shoehorned' into the area at the frame ends) after a dramatic wreck attributed to characteristics of the 2-wheel radial trucks. Here's a link to a factory shot of a T-2:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/nyc3401.jpg

and a good account of the class is at:

http://alfredbarten.com/oldmaude.html

The 'classic' T-motors have four B trucks in some combination of articulation I don't remember -- I think they were B-B+B-B, two sets of span-bolstered trucks. A good shot that shows a side view of the truck articulation is

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc254s.jpg

As a little side-note, IIRC the reason the TRUE Niagaras are class S has to do with the "4-8-4" wheel arrangement on the electric class S (and perhaps the reason for the 6000 number series being the number on the prototype motor...)

To round things out, there were class Rs that had long C trucks (with uneven axle spacing to fit traction motors) -- some of these went to CSS&SB in the '50s and I remember a Trains Magazine cover from 1965 that had the front end of one. Apparently a few of the R-2s were geared for passenger service, used the H-series heater cars, etc. etc.

The T-motors were supplanted by the (glorious!) P-motors from Cleveland in the '50s, which might be considered NYC's version of the GG1 (they were close in hp, and were 2-C+C-2 with continuous undercarriage).

When I was fairly young, I remember visiting GCT as a train I remember as the Twentieth Century Limited was being readied for departure. What I remember about the locomotive was that it had a raised GE insignia, flanked by the words "electric" and "locomotive", on the side -- I thought it was unusual that the railroad or manufacturer would see a need to label a locomotive as if it were a refrigerator or other appliance! I'm still not sure what locomotive this was...

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

A few words about wheel arrangements:
S-motors were 2-D-2
T-motors were B-B+B-B
P-motors were 2-C+C-2 (ex-Cleveland Union Terminal)
R-motors were C+C, these were strictly freight motors but turned up in GCT in emergency situations. Ten of them were sold to and seven were rebuilt by South Shore Line between 1955 and 1967.

[Overmod]

Slightly off original topic: Anybody have pictures, links, or information regarding the R-motor undercarriage? As Paul indicated, these are almost certainly C+C, not C-C (the difference isn't trivial; it involves the trucks being articulated together rather than just pivoted to the carbody). I can't tell they're articulated from the available pix; the tipoff is that the couplers are carried on the truck frames, not the carbody frame, and draft forces between the trucks in this case wouldn't be carried through the carbody and pivot pins...

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Four or five of the R-motors were re-assigned to the Detroit River Tunnel operation just prior to the dieselization of that operation.
While the R-motors were converted from third-rail-shoe to pantograph current pickup when they were rebuilt by South Shore Line, the P-motors were converted from pantograph to third-rail-shoe pickup when NYC rebuilt them for the GCT operation.

[oltmannd]

Wow! This has been a very interesting and informative thread!

In the early days of Amtrak when I was using Empire Svc trains to get beteen GCT and Alb-Renss, I used to sit in the concourse of GCT an watch all those old train names roll by on the track destination boards.

I also remember many trips where the FL9 couldn't even clear the platform on electric before the engineer would resort to diesel to get us out of there.

I also had a nice tour of the bowels of the place when part of (what turned out to be a political) mission to try to understand why the commuter equipment (in particular, the air conditioning) was so lousy.

[jchnhtfd]

Don -- I too remember sitting on the concourse in GCT, but before Amtrak (oh well -- after Amtrak too, for that matter!) and I wonder if my fascination with trains and travel didn't start right there. It may be just that I'm a somewhat sentimental old man now, but there was a romance in those trains and those names... !

[daveklepper]

One reason the FL-9's had problems on electric operation was improperly maintained third rail shoes as well as badly maintained third rail. This problem became very serious as the they would even loose their shoes being nocked off by gaps in the third rail resulting from track maintenance without ramps being applied. This led to widespread use of diesel into Grand Central until Restaurant Associates complained to Metro North that their patrons in the Waldor Astoria Hotel Restaurant were being gassed, and Metro North replied, naturally, that they only used electric power into Grand Central. Now who do suppose ratted on Metro North to the Restaurant Associates Lawyer? Take a good guess. I hope Walter Zulig reads this thread! (Metro North's lawyer at the time and a great railfan.)

Anyway, I am glad to have my memories of the S-1 and T-1 and T-3 and R wheel arrangements corrected.

After, Metro North's lawer said the use of diesel power into Grand Central had to be curtailed, we again started seeing engine changes at White Plains North Station and at Harmon Croten and more P-motors and even some T's were put back into service. (The P's had been handling all the Amtrak trains at the time, since Amtrak didn't own any dual-mode diesels at that time.) They then got serious about third rail and shoe maintenance, and went to a simpler shoe that then prevented the FL-9's from running into Penn Station, which was OK since Metro North was using them all anyway. Another problem if I remember correctly was the changeover switch with EMD having problems with a vendor out of business.

From what I understand, Amtrak's diesels do not use their shoes on Metro North trackage but continue on diesel all the way from just north of Penn Station to Albany and beyond. The shoe is simply mechanically pivoted vertically, up, out of the way of Metro North's underrunning third rail and is used only into Penn Station and to Sunnyside on the LIRR third rail. This is true of the new power and the FL-9's.

The original EMD third rail shoe was double sprung with a center horizontal resting position that could make good contact with either type of third rail, if the third rail were properly maintained. Thhis was not the same type of third rail that was applied to New Haven Passenger power, the EP-2's through EP-5's, which had a motor-operated cam that reversed the sringing. New Haven passenger power (not sure about the EP-1's, they may have only been intended for Grand Central) could run into either New York Station, but the freight power only into Penn. The EF-3 designed for freight with a designed top speed of only 70mph (often exceeded) did many times haul passenger trains into Penn Station and ten were eqipped with train boilers. The EF-3 and EP-4 were similar streamlined 4-6-6-4's. I still think the EF-3 was the best electric ever built, even better than a GG-1, which was similar mechanically and electrically. EF-3 had higher horsepower, both continuous and short time. But the GG-1's outlasted them.

[stmtrolleyguy]

Read "When the Stam roads electrified" by WIlliam D Middleton. It clear up a lot of this mess, and has a nice history of the early electification in NY and elsewhere. If anything, it's got some great pictures in it.

[Anonymous]

Hi
Just found in my Feb 1947 copy of Model Builder an article by David Marshall on the conception and planning of the worlds largest(at the time )railroad terminal. There are complete track diagrams of the express level and the surburban level of the station. It is a great article and a complete history up to 1947.

[Anonymous]

Just one more bit of info from the 1947 article: "Wilguslaid down his plan for the present day GST on the twenty-second of December 1902 ". :By the Tenth of January,1903 William J Wilgus was made VP of the Central Hudson RR which was in charge of the construction. Deep in the tunnel 1/22/1902 a New haven Commuter train was in the color (standing stock still in front of a red light) thus the color. In back of heron the same track a Central Hudson train was moving through the smoke by dead reckoning. Seventeen people dead and the hue and cry that banned all steam locomotives from Manhattan on all tracks used for passenger service by 1910 meant that electrification of passenger service had to be done in 8 years. Up went the new GST

[Anonymous]

Might I recommend a book on GCT? It is Grand Central Terminal by Kurt C. Schlichting, John Hopkins Press, 2001. Lots of photos, maps, etc. A good history.

[Anonymous]

I think that only the New York Central and the New Haven RR. used Grand Central

[daveklepper]

Yes, but the NH ran into GCT with through trains from the B&M, Maine Central, Central Vermont, Canadian Pacific, and Canadian National. The NYC ran into GCT with through trains from the D&H, Rutland, and CP and its subsidiary TH&B. Coaches and sleepers from all these could be seen at one time or another in GCT, along with occasional through sleepers from the Missouri Pacific anmd Texas Pacific and for a short time the AT&SF.