Union Pacific's Historical Blunder?

[nanaimo73]

Thank you, stillgrande. It's great to be talking about railroads on this forum instead of Wednesday's main topic.

[StillGrande]

Another set of reasons for the chosen route at the time was access to suitable water, trees suitable for ties and building materials (they paid particular attention to the rivers and streams near the route which could support logging activities as well as water for the trains and building crews), access to possible coal and mineral reserves (There was a mineral surveyor with the route surveyors), limits on bridging and filling activites, and as noted before, hostile indians, severity of winter weather and snow fall patterns (one group of surveyors was sent to monitor the amount of snow in an alternate path, another was charged with monitoring how the snow fell and was blown around to pick which side of a pass or canyon the route should take to remain open year round with less effort. Remember, the route had to be available year round. The northern route mentioned was looked at, but there was discussion that there would be greater snowfalls to be dealt with at that point. Some of the other routes were not as available year round given the technology at the time. There was also concern about the suitability of the ground to support a railroad. There was some discussion about whether the ground could hold the line without extensive upgrades.

As has been brought up, the UP at the time was getting paid for laying track which could run a train (not necessarily the most efficient route available, but the cheapest which could pass inspection). 40 fewer miles is less money to the investors in land speculation.

The US method of building a route between two points is not always the shortest route. Consideration is made for grade changes and available resources (UK method, because points were usually closer together, was to build in a straight line and to heck with the costs) . In the west at the time they were also nation building and were selecting sites which could become future towns and supply the route with traffic when it was finished. You can't build a road with no customers. And you can't build a town with no income source for the residents.

[nanaimo73]

The top corner of page 39 in the May 1969 Trains magazine is where I got the information about the effect on Cheyenne and Laramie. The Laramie river goes through the ridge, although the ground could be rough. There are no paved roads currently on this route.A westward connection from Denver would have needed to build through Laramie along the present mainline route or north through Cheyenne on the current BNSF ( C&S) route.

[dehusman]

Unless you have documentation, I doubt that the impact on Cheyenne or Laramie had much to do with it, after all the UP bypassed Salt Lake City and that was certainly the biggest city (possibly the only "city") in Utah.

I think maybe the ridge that shows on the Topo maps along the Albany-Laramie county line (west of Wheatland) might have had something to do with it.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

The goal during construction of a lot of railroads was often a ruling grade no more than x. The grade at the other end of Wyoming is actually worse than Sherman. Curvature could be a factor as well. Later on, UP had extensive shops at Cheyene & Laramie and the cost to relocate those would also be a factor. Moving the line farther north would also affect the connections to much larger Denver.

[nanaimo73]

I am saying the UP did not go ahead and build this surveyed line in 1909 because of what it would have done to those cities. I say they should have built it in 1867.

[PNWRMNM]

Nanaimo,

Laramie and Cheyene were both creations of the UPRR and would not have affected the original location decision.

Mac

[nanaimo73]

I said the Oregon Trail, the Mormon Trail and the Pony Express used the South Pass route. The best route, the proposed 1909 route, would have used the Yoder line to Veteran WY, and then through Wheatland to a point on the present mainline around Medicine Bow. The current line would have been used from there. The new construction would have been about 85 miles, while a South Pass route would have met the current main at Granger, another 240 miles further west. This line was not built because of the effect it would have had on Laramie and Cheyenne.
There could have been a steep grade somewhere, I would certainly have a look if I was in that area.

[PNWRMNM]

I doubt that UP made the blunder alleged. The South Pass route was well known before the UP started to survey. I suspect that there may be a few miles of very steep grade somewhere that dominted the issue.

Mac McCulloch

[eastside]

Those are only the direct incremental costs.
From UP’s 2004 annual report:
Fuel: $1.8 billion (will probably be much more this year)

Here are some of the other costs each train must share:
Depreciation: $1 billion
Casualty costs: $694 m
Interest on debt: $527 m
Salaries and wages: $4.1 b
(Also including administration: dispatchers, marketing, sales, and management)
Property taxes

What’s interesting to me is the size of the “casualty costs,” they’re much higher than interest and a significant proportion of S&W. Apparently UP is caught up in the web of asbestos lawsuits.

These costs are not negligible. So each train is pulling quite a load. When companies get into cost-cutting mode and want a quick fix they tend to focus on the "other" costs rather than improving operating efficiencies.

There was a better crossing of the continental divide north of the original route that was undetected. From what I’ve read, even though they didn’t get the best route the UP was very satisfied. By the standards of the day you could hardly hold the surveyors remiss. In fact, Ambrose considered their accomplishment almost heroic, considering that they were being constantly hassled by the Indians. By the time the UP found out about the better route, the whole infrastructure (including Cheyenne, WY) was too well established.

UP’s original route was dictated by government subsidies, which rewarded amount of track laid and disregarded efficiency. This gave Will Durant, the president of UP, added incentive to extort payoffs from towns along the route by threatening to bypass them if they didn’t pay. If they paid up, the UP got the double bonus of the payoff and government subsidy for the distance added by the detour. Later, after Harriman got control, the UP straightened out much the Overland route. In addition, trains were slower, shorter, lighter, and could take curves of small radius. Several years ago, Trains did an article remarking that the Overland route was about as efficiently laid out as possible for modern trains.

[miniwyo]

Nanimo- I am a Wyoming native, Feel free to ask me any questions about wyoming you like on here or by email at [e-mail] If I can't answer you question i know many who I can ask and get the answer.

[nanaimo73]

Wheatland had been there over 30 years, so scores of settlers and frontiersmen must have followed the Laramie River west.

[dldance]

the short answer is Indians - the surveryers working across Wyoming were trying to avoid being killed by the Northern Shoshone. In fact they were trying to out run an Indian attack when they spotted the grade that became Sherman Hill.

dd

[tree68]

Barring other historical reasons (land disputes and the like) - you must recall that the surveyors probably didn't have the nice aerial photographs and topographical maps we take for granted today. They may have simply not seen the better route at the time.

[BNSFGP38]

Its like that because.............

How boring it would be to see the 844 and Challenger just toot along on flat track when they do excursions. [:o)][:D][8D]

[chad thomas]

check it out:

http://www.uphs.org/

[nanaimo73]

I would like to know if the UPHS has ever done an article on this topic in their magazine.
We must have several of their members using this forum.

[chad thomas]

Aw come on, have a little faith in yourself. [:D]

[nanaimo73]

April 23, 2005 was my first time on a computer and I doubt I could do the proper research. As well,I have never been to Wyoming to look over the area and I don't know if I'll ever get there. I think Gabe could do a heck of an article.Thanks for the reply.

[chad thomas]

I think your doing a good job yourself. That would make for an interesting article. Why don't you want to do the reasearch and submit it? It sounds like a good idea.

[nanaimo73]

So, how much does it cost UP to run a train 40 miles? Probably not very much. Less than an hours wages for the crew. Perhaps 50 gallons of fuel. It can't be that much. Now lets say the train has to climb 1,000 feet and go back down the other side. I would guess the fuel usage would probably triple, and it might take two hours. If Union Pacific ran 70 trains a day over that hill, costs would start to mount. You would need three tracks instead of one, for instance.If UP has been doing it for 136 years, the costs must be enormous.Perhaps $100 million? $1 billion? The Company could figure it out, I sure can't.
Construction of the Union Pacific started in 1865 in Omaha and proceded west along the Platte river. At present day North Platte, the river forked. UP could follow the South Platte River to Denver, but then the Rockies blocked further progress. How about the North Platte? UP makes heavy use of this route today for PRB coal trains as far as Joyce. This route could have continued to Fort Laramie, over South Pass and back to the present route around Fort Bridger.The Oregon Trail and the Mormon Trail took this route. The Pony Express ran this way for a year and a half until it was killed by the telegraph. Union Pacific chose to split the two. There were no settlements at the time, so the railroad founded Cheyenne and Laramie. Cheyenne became the Capitol in 1869 and Wyoming became a State in 1890. This route topped Sherman at 8,247 feet and was later lowered to 8,013 feet.
In 1909 the Union Pacific surveyed a cut-off from Yoder (near Joyce) to Medicine Bow along the Laramie River. This would have crossed the current BNSF (C&S) route at Wheatland, Wyoming's first permanent trading post (1834). The cut-off was not built because of the crippling effect it would have had on Cheyenne and Laramie.
Why didn't they go that route in the first place, did the surveyers miss it? Not saving 40 miles in distance and 1000 feet in altitude is a blunder in my books.
A lot of you out there write a heck of a lot better than I do.Do some research and you could have an article in Trains.
.