What does Bush and parts of the US not understand about Amtrak and the national passenger rail?

[Anonymous]

Oh, unfunded liabilities. Do you think enough US citizens will figure out that eventually there's a reckoning when you borrow, borrow, borrow for your wants, wants, wants, and think somebody else is really paying the bill? Hark, do I hear "monetize the debt"?

[edblysard]

If I remember correctly, last night on ABC evening news, the feds said the pension fund guarantee was 23 million in the red already... yet a few years ago; it was 10 million in the black.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Ed-

From this mornings AP Wire.

LC

"United Can Dump Four Pension Plan

(AP) United's unions reserve the right to strike if contracts change.
The shift to a federal benefits plan inflames the unions and prompts some in Congress to warn that the Fed's pension agency may need a bailout."

[kevarc]

Yes, but look at the population density for the routes in California as compared to just about anywhere else. The NEC is the only other place where the density compares.

[passengerfan]

Is California the only state that realizes the importance of rail travel, don't the others get the message. Oh well California always leads the nation, the others eventually wake up and follow suit.

[Anonymous]

Ed-

From this mornings AP Wire.

LC

"United Can Dump Four Pension Plan

(AP) United's unions reserve the right to strike if contracts change.
The shift to a federal benefits plan inflames the unions and prompts some in Congress to warn that the Fed's pension agency may need a bailout."\

[edblysard]

The pension guarantee fund was set up as a tool of last resort...to be used only after a business was completely closed, as a buffer for the former employees.

It does not guarantee 100% payment on the pension; a lot depends on the contributions of the employer.

If, and that’s a suspicious if, the feds let United dump their pension, the problem will be that all major corporations in financial trouble will line up at the door to dump theirs.

Imagine you, the tax payer, having already "paid" for GMs pension fund as part of the purchase price of your new GM vehicle, now having to pay for the fund outright.

Pissed off yet?

Well, say your a United employee, worked there 25, 30 years, and are a month from retirement.

You put in your time, worked your fanny off, and surprise, when you retire, not only is there a very real chance your wont get a dime of your pension, if you do get anything, it might be as low as 50 cents on the dollar.

If that happened to you, I would bet that, instead of worrying what the impact on the rest of the industry would be, you would be screaming for the feds to bail out the fund...after all, you are now looking at not only losing almost 50 to 75% of your retirement funds, but are facing the certainty of having to remain full time employed the remainder of your life, just to keep even with your survival needs, and any chance of enjoying the fruits of your years of hard work are gone...

I think you are looking at the beginning of the end in the way major US companies conduct business.

I mean, look at this.

GM stock is reduced to junk status, not because they make a bad car, but because their managed to miss-manage their businesses.

They sell EMD in an attempt to hold off debt, and it still doesn’t work.

Over 1/2 of every dollar they make in profit has to go to the pension fund.

For every person on the GM pension fund, GM has to employee two full time workers on the current payroll just to pay the bills of day to day operations.

One of those employees are doing nothing more that earning the company enough (in productivity) to pay the pension fund debt.

A bare bones ratio would be one employee being productive enough to not only pay for his or her own pension, and keep the company solvent, but to also to retire the pension debt on at least one employee already retired.

That’s a very, very dangerous ratio.
Workable, but dangerous.

GM is way past that, United is also.

Many other airlines are either in the same condition, or so close as to not matter much.

Ought to scare the crap out you....

Ed

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Actually, UAL is just the latest firm to fob off its pension plans on Uncle Sam by way of Chapter 11. The precedent was set by Bethlehem Steel and other steel firms in the late 1980's and early 1990's. From here, it looks like United is headed for a Chapter 7 liquidation so the PBGC will get stuck with the pension plans in any case.

[Anonymous]

OK. United may shut down account of a work stoppage generated by the pension fund problem. All the airlines are booked. Where are the people gonna go?

By the way, and I may not understand this correctly, but it looks like the government is going to have to fund the United pension program at a reduced payout to employees.

When it comes to airlines there seems to be no end to the funds available to a "private concern."

Mitch

[daveklepper]

Kevin: I think the elderly and handicapped have a right to travel because when they were working they paid the taxes so you can drive your car and fly. Again, a think two billion dollars a year to insure that most elderly and handicapped have access to most of the country is worth it. To continue to releave highway congestion in corridors is worth it. To provide backup in most places in various time of emergency is worth it. To give people choices instead of locking them to auto transportation and nothing else in particular communities is worth it. To eventually provide money for capacity expansion at rail choke points to benefit both passsenger and freight is worth it. To provide a tourist amenity that foreign visitors expect in any civilized country is worth it.

You may not agree and you have a right to your opinion, but considering the hundreds of billions (total) spent each year on highways and airports, I think two billion a year for Amtrak is worth it.

Of course then there are the billions that have been spent on fuel-cell-Hydrogen research . Which will not buy the people a single thing regarding transportation. One big scam by the hihgway-auto-petroleum people so they can keep oil profits high while doing nothing practical about USA energy independence.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by paugust

Yawn, just another NeoCon obsessed with Clinton. _!_

So, on the one hand I have paugust calling me a NeoCon, and on the other I have Larry Kaufman calling me a communist. I guess that puts me smack dab in the middle of the ole' Bell Curve.

Just remember, when Clinton lied, thousands of Serbs died. BTW, have we rebuilt the Serbian rail network yet? After all, first bombed, first served.

Well would you please make up your mind then.....Which is it? Are you a Neo-Con or a Clintonista???[;)]

I'm just an average joe who's proud to be an American.

Okay ..good enough for me.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by paugust

Yawn, just another NeoCon obsessed with Clinton. _!_

So, on the one hand I have paugust calling me a NeoCon, and on the other I have Larry Kaufman calling me a communist. I guess that puts me smack dab in the middle of the ole' Bell Curve.

Just remember, when Clinton lied, thousands of Serbs died. BTW, have we rebuilt the Serbian rail network yet? After all, first bombed, first served.

Well would you please make up your mind then.....Which is it? Are you a Neo-Con or a Clintonista???[;)]

I'm just an average joe who's proud to be an American.

[edblysard]

So, Dan,
You saying beer isnt just a breakfast food anymore?

Ed

[dharmon]

Fund it...make it good, reliable, seperated from freight traffic as much as possible, equipped with modern equipment and ideas...doesn't have to be run for profit, but stop running it like a coma patient on life support...

...or kill it and let the states pick up regional traffic in the corridors that make sense.

...and if they do kill it, I've got a study of fermented grain beverage induced flatulance that I think would make a good long term government funding project. <burp>

[edblysard]

First, I agree, Amtrak in its current form sucks...I rode it the year it was created, and swore I would never set foot on it again.
Santa Fe spoiled me!
But then, I rode it in the middle 90s, and was surprised at how much better it had become, and disappointed at how badly the freight railroads screwed it over.

Re-read my original idea...let the feds run it at a loss if needs be...but price it so the average Joe can afford it.

As for those who don’t live near a rail line..so.

How many don’t live near an airport?

My sister lives in Bandera, way out in the Texas hill country, at least 50 miles from SA, for her to fly anywhere outside of the south west takes a days worth of airport hopping just to make the connections.

Face it, no matter what form of national transportation system you design, you can’t please everyone all the time.

I am not saying take any funding away from the other types of transportation.

What I am says is let quit worrying if they make money, because none of them do.

Not in real, concrete measurable terms.

But they do allow us, the taxpayer, to use them to make us, private concerns, money.

The Mississippi flood control, the intercostal water way, the airports and the interstate don’t pay for themselves in cash back...but they do allow us to make enough in corporate profits to pay the taxes to keep them working.

Which is exactally what we expect from our federal goverment.

Apply the same concept to a passenger train.

Who cares if it makes money, as long as it moves a sufficient number of people from point A to point B, at a price they are willing to pay, then it works just as well as any airport, city bus line, or light rail.

Ed

[kevarc]

Singular point of view? Maybe. I looked at using Amtrak to visit my parents. I live on the Sunset Route and they live in Pittsburgh. After finding out the cost for my wife, son, and me, it was crazy. For what it would cost, I could have flown and still had a hunk of money left over. Then we get to the time - I could drive it faster, stay in a nice hotel and still have money left over. Kinda of a no brainer. The time was longer, and that is on the premise that Amtrak is on time. Fat chance on that. Then the layovers - New Orleans and then I had my choice of Washington or Chicago. None of them are what I would consider a garden spot to wait for 6 hours. Bah, I don't mind driving that much, even with the cost of gas.

I just don't see where Amtrak is worth the effort for most of the country. In certain corridor, yes, but let the states help pick up the cost like they do in California. If they want it that bad, let them pay for it.

Common good? For who? Those that live near a line? What about the rest of the country? Are we going to jam it down the RR's throat? Another bad idea. The government could always appropriate the tracks, right? But then who is going to compensate those that have an interest in the RR's, the stockholders and bond holders? I own RR stock, maybe not much, but enough that I would definatley be interested in filing a breach of fiduciary duty lawsuit on any of the management and board that would agree to a deal with the government. Never forget how well the government did in WW1 and 2 in dealing with the RR's. Do you really want a repeat of that? They got lucky in Conrail that they had people who knew what they were doing.

[edblysard]

Kevin,
You appear to have a singular point of view...in that because Amtrak doesn’t affect you one way or the other, it should go away.
Well, I don’t ride buses...and I despise flying.
I figure if god had wanted me that high up, he would have given me wings, or put Houston on top of the Rockies...
So, from the position you present, airplanes and airports, and all city buses should be junked, because "I" don’t use them or benefit from their existence.
I also don’t get any direct benefit from the intercostals water way, or the Mississippi river, so they too should be cut off from federal funds?
As to allowing the states and local governments to use the funds at their discretion...well, last time I took IH10 across the bridge at Orange, I hit some of the cruddiest highway I have ever driven on. And then in the next parish, it was wonderful, so the patchwork spending of local governments has already been shown to produce a less than uniform and desirable product.
Now, I don’t plan on ever riding a barge up the intercostals, or rafting down the Mississippi, but I can see where traffic on both do benefit me…even though on the surface they both seem to compete with my business of railroading.
Some products don’t need to go by rail, or by truck, but fit quite well into a barge.

Shipping them any other way would increase my cost at the cash register.

Same thing applies to Amtrak.

By the way, for a failed entity, it sure draws a lot of riders ready to board at 2:00am in Houston, last time I was down there, I asked the ticket agent, 73 ticket sales, and they boarded a pretty crowded train.
Imagine if the thing was run right, and the first section of the Sunset Limited showed up at 2:00 pm in the afternoon?

I might never ride it again, but I can see where it would serve a large portion of the public.

To me, the direct benefit is I wouldn’t have to fly again.

The indirect benefit is that quite a few people would use it instead of driving or flying, lessening the crowding on the interstate and the crush at the airports.

An even better example, take New Orleans…now, from my point of view, anybody who builds a city on the third coast, below sea level, should expect to get drowned about once a year.

Hundreds, even billions of federal dollars are spent every year to keep the dikes and levees working, and to keep the city alive.

Why should I care if it sinks or swims?

I don’t even go there for Mardi-Gras, so I don’t receive any direct benefit.

So why are federal funds spent there?

Because the people who live there want them to be, and have managed to get their elected officials to help direct federal funds towards it.

All for the “common good” of the populace there.

I am pretty sure you could find a lot of folks in Oregon who dont even know where New Orleans is, and could care less if it sinks....but some of their mony is still spent there to keep it dry.

So why not spent some on the common good a national passenger rail system would create?

The funds have to be dedicated solely to Amtrak, and managed by a single, Federal entity, solely for Amtrak’s use, with broad enforcement and design powers.

Anything else is a pork barrel approach that we all know doesn’t work.

My concept is simple.

We own it already.
It is already there, and working, in a fashion.
Enough people want it to remain.

So.....

Ed

[kevarc]

Sorry, I did missread it.

It is easy to understand why certain projects get funded - PORK. Nothing more, nothing less. To them it is a big game to see how much they can bring to their district to get the votes to be re-elected. There is an old saying - all politics are local. While some of the emotional issues, abortion, for instance, may ring with Presidential elections, it is almost always local issues that play in every othere election. I know when I listen to the candidates for the Senate and House here, I don't care about the hot button issues, I want to know is it going to put money in my pocket and get government off my back. What is he/she going to do for local problems.

If you want to put Amtrak into the same catagory are NASA, what can I expect from them? NOTHING. Nothing amtrak does is going to improve the quality of life that many projects from NASA did and will continue to do. We have recieved tangible result. Research is good, subsidizing amtrak is bad. So you do want to compare the 2.

It is time to realize that amtrak is a failed entity and consign it to the dustbin unless major changes are made. Like I suggested above. Make transportation funds available to the states and let them decide whether to fund roads or trains or buses. We are the ones who must live with the decisions and considering that I only vote for 2 senators and 1 representive, why should the other idiots there tell us how and where to spend the money. I am still trying to figure out why some clown from Oregon knows what we need here in Louisiana better than what we know. (Nothing against Oregon, but they are far away from here)

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


Humm,
Well, Kevin, I must not have expressed myself quite a clearly as I wanted to, or you didn’t quite understand what I was writing.

I wasn’t comparing NASA to any railroad...in fact, what I was pointing out is that almost no one expects NASA to be a for profit venture, in terms of a hard cash return on the investment.
Everyone does expect technological advances to be made, and for theses advances to work their way down into the public domain, based on the research NASA and its contractors do.

And almost everyone still lets Congress get away with the "for profit" concept of Amtrak.

What I was suggesting was that you place Amtrak in the same political concept as NASA, a long term government funded public project.

And I doubt any private citizen who gets served by one of the TVA projects really cares one bit about the source of the funding for it, as long as the lights are on, their happy.

My point was, it’s your money, your representative, your congress.
If you will sit there and allow them to fund snail darter research, or warthog mating research...well, why not demand they spend your money on something you want?

Personally, I have a pretty good idea that wart hogs get on with it the same way rabbits, skunks and some of the forum members(fill in the blank) get by...and as for snail darters...well...I don’t miss the dodo bird, or the pigeons that were hunted out of existence...and I don’t see any real reason we, the general public, need to pay to find out how warthogs manage to procreate or save a fi***hat isn’t a food stuff for some other animal, and plays no real part in the planets ecosystem.

But somehow, we allowed our leaders to fund a few hundred projects that do research such concerns.

On the other hand, I do miss having a nationwide passenger train service that works.

And I don’t mind spending the money to create such a thing.

I certainly do mind spending some of the ludicrous amounts on the wild and wooly pork barrel home state projects our congressmen and women manage to get away with...
And I certainly would be more that happy to remind them they hold their current position because I helped vote them in...And don’t mind voting them out if they don’t spend my money on what I want.

And, no, railroads are not public utilities, but they were treated so by our government, and forced to behave as such, for so long that the government almost regulated them out of existence.
The mega mergers everyone seems so bent about are not solely motivated by greed, in most instances; they are the last attempt by a hammered industry to survive.

Had deregulation come even 20 years earlier, almost all of your fallen flags would still be here, in some shape or form, and almost all of them would be profitable.

If you look closely, you will notice that most of the Class1s are dropping the short haul, local industry switching in favor of the long haul, unit and intermodel train...and leaving the close to home stuff to the short lines and locals.

And, look even closer, you will see that they are investing, and helping those short lines to progress, note the excellent obituary LC posted about his friend, who made a career out of helping NS create shorelines out of their spin-off tracks.

I know, I work for a "local" railroad that serves BNSF, UP, and KCS...at a profit both to us, and the shippers.
It’s flat out cheaper for us to work the ship channel, gather it all up, and interchange with the Class 1s than it is for the big guys to do it themselves.
It’s a win, win thing for all of us.

So, while all of us sit around griping about the latest paint scheme on a BNSF locomotive, BNSF is busy showing a short line in New Mexico how to make money serving a few small mines...NS is busy teaching a local line how to get business that went to trucks back, and KCS is dragging everything it can get its hands on out of Mexico and into the US, and at less cost than trucks can move it.

They are busy recreating a business structure that existed 80 years ago, and was destroyed by our government’s attitude that they should be treated like the light company...as a public utility.

They are not, never have been, and never will be.

But, Amtrak can be...it belongs to us already, lets just take the final step, and claim ownership.

It’s ours, so let’s make it work for us.

Ed

Ed,

A wonderfully planned response, and oen of the few on this board that might make me rethink my position a little bit. Thanks for the copius amount of thought and time that you put into it.

Chris
Denver, CO

[Anonymous]

Thanks for proving my point!

_|_

Paul

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by paugust

Yawn, just another NeoCon obsessed with Clinton. _!_

So, on the one hand I have paugust calling me a NeoCon, and on the other I have Larry Kaufman calling me a communist. I guess that puts me smack dab in the middle of the ole' Bell Curve.

Just remember, when Clinton lied, thousands of Serbs died. BTW, have we rebuilt the Serbian rail network yet? After all, first bombed, first served.

[edblysard]

Humm,
Well, Kevin, I must not have expressed myself quite a clearly as I wanted to, or you didn’t quite understand what I was writing.

I wasn’t comparing NASA to any railroad...in fact, what I was pointing out is that almost no one expects NASA to be a for profit venture, in terms of a hard cash return on the investment.
Everyone does expect technological advances to be made, and for theses advances to work their way down into the public domain, based on the research NASA and its contractors do.

And almost everyone still lets Congress get away with the "for profit" concept of Amtrak.

What I was suggesting was that you place Amtrak in the same political concept as NASA, a long term government funded public project.

And I doubt any private citizen who gets served by one of the TVA projects really cares one bit about the source of the funding for it, as long as the lights are on, their happy.

My point was, it’s your money, your representative, your congress.
If you will sit there and allow them to fund snail darter research, or warthog mating research...well, why not demand they spend your money on something you want?

Personally, I have a pretty good idea that wart hogs get on with it the same way rabbits, skunks and some of the forum members(fill in the blank) get by...and as for snail darters...well...I don’t miss the dodo bird, or the pigeons that were hunted out of existence...and I don’t see any real reason we, the general public, need to pay to find out how warthogs manage to procreate or save a fi***hat isn’t a food stuff for some other animal, and plays no real part in the planets ecosystem.

But somehow, we allowed our leaders to fund a few hundred projects that do research such concerns.

On the other hand, I do miss having a nationwide passenger train service that works.

And I don’t mind spending the money to create such a thing.

I certainly do mind spending some of the ludicrous amounts on the wild and wooly pork barrel home state projects our congressmen and women manage to get away with...
And I certainly would be more that happy to remind them they hold their current position because I helped vote them in...And don’t mind voting them out if they don’t spend my money on what I want.

And, no, railroads are not public utilities, but they were treated so by our government, and forced to behave as such, for so long that the government almost regulated them out of existence.
The mega mergers everyone seems so bent about are not solely motivated by greed, in most instances; they are the last attempt by a hammered industry to survive.

Had deregulation come even 20 years earlier, almost all of your fallen flags would still be here, in some shape or form, and almost all of them would be profitable.

If you look closely, you will notice that most of the Class1s are dropping the short haul, local industry switching in favor of the long haul, unit and intermodel train...and leaving the close to home stuff to the short lines and locals.

And, look even closer, you will see that they are investing, and helping those short lines to progress, note the excellent obituary LC posted about his friend, who made a career out of helping NS create shorelines out of their spin-off tracks.

I know, I work for a "local" railroad that serves BNSF, UP, and KCS...at a profit both to us, and the shippers.
It’s flat out cheaper for us to work the ship channel, gather it all up, and interchange with the Class 1s than it is for the big guys to do it themselves.
It’s a win, win thing for all of us.

So, while all of us sit around griping about the latest paint scheme on a BNSF locomotive, BNSF is busy showing a short line in New Mexico how to make money serving a few small mines...NS is busy teaching a local line how to get business that went to trucks back, and KCS is dragging everything it can get its hands on out of Mexico and into the US, and at less cost than trucks can move it.

They are busy recreating a business structure that existed 80 years ago, and was destroyed by our government’s attitude that they should be treated like the light company...as a public utility.

They are not, never have been, and never will be.

But, Amtrak can be...it belongs to us already, lets just take the final step, and claim ownership.

It’s ours, so let’s make it work for us.

Ed

[kevarc]

Some comments

Dave - the handicpped and elderly - to me that is a red herring meant to tug at our heartstrings. Sorry, that does not wash with me. Right to travel? Try getting on an airplane without a picture ID or pay for the ticket with cash and you will find yourselve in a small room answering a lot of questions. I check the Constitution and found no right to travel.

The TVA...ever hear some one who get their electricity from the dams gripe that the government spent money on that?

Or complain about the feds changing out a turbine or running new power lines?
Nope...it’s expected...

Well, not really. THE TVA still must answer to a lot of regulators - the EPA is hammering them for replacing turbine blades and other work done to plants. They must also answer to the FERC.

It would have been better, if from the beginning, they told the truth. But, alas, they prefered to put rose colored glasses on and say yep, it will be profitable. Dave - Trains Mag, both in the editoral columns and Don Phillip's columns have been saying for years that Amtrak would never be profitable. So it is hard for me to understand why you think that it can be or that we have a RIGHT to it. We don't and it never will.

Let the states have it with the matching funds like the Feds do for highways. This puts the onus on the people closest to the problem - the state and local officials. Let them decide whether to use the funds for highways or railroads. I could live with that a lot easier than trying to get the feds to do everything.

Train dispatchers as Fed employees like Air Traffic Controllers? This is really a bad idea.

Comparing NASA to railroads is like comparing apples to oranges. At least we do get something usefull from NASA. While we may not see money put into our pocket, the advances in weather prediction from it have saved lives. Hurricanes! We get nothing like that from amtrak.

You cannot make the RR's into a public utility. It already is, but it does not have the level of regulation that a utility does. Esp. since the end of the ICC. I am in the utiltiy business and I see a HUGE number of parallels between the RR's and the electric companies. Everything we do is a big ticket item. The cost for new transmission is staggering. It is as much, if not more, for a mile of transmission lines as it is for a mile of RR track. We need a wider right of way, the structures needed are as daunting as what a RR needs, and maintenence is just as costly.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Sounds like a Socialist-Clintonista, with severe Pavlovian leanings....



As for Amtrak...in my opinion, I wouldn’t blink an eye at Amtrak becoming a complete ward of the Feds...in fact, I think they should take it over, and run it like a public works project.

I doubt there is an adult here who seriously thinks a passenger train, outside of the NEC, can make enough profit to be self sufficient.

From what I have read, and the opinions of a few friends who were there, even back in the heyday or the Golden Years, the only railroad that consistently made money on their passenger service was Santa Fe, and only because they served a clearly cut, dedicated market, and employed people who loved, and I mean loved, their jobs.

Compare them to, say, Southwest Airlines.
They do the same thing; serve a small, dedicated market with a vengence.

They don’t offer anything beyond a seat, a soft drink and a bag of almonds, and the promise to get you there, when you want to get there, on time, and consistently.

Miss the 12:05 to Salt Lake?

No sweat, there is a 2:05 flight also...in fact; they fly more planes to their system points than anyone else, except UPS and FedEx...

Take away the myth that Amtrak can ever be profitable, it can’t.

Give real power to the guys running it...

Let them take a hard look at the population centers that need train service.

Give them the power of the Feds to seriously put the screws to any freight railroad that doesn’t clear a path for their trains, and reward handsomely those that do.

Get the Class 1s on the carpet; tell them that we are going to upgrade the routes the Feds want, from piddley 45 mph lines to 90mph drag strips, in exchange for their willingness to get out of the way.

Fine the crap out of them, and the dispatcher that doesn’t.
Better yet, make the dispatchers on those dedicated routes/lines Feds...

Sounds like I want to make it a public utility?
You bet.

Why?

Because I sit here and watch while the feds pay upwards of 20 billion dollars to turn a 20 mile stretch of I 10, the Katy Freeway, from a 4 lane each way overcrowded freeway into a super freeway, with eight lanes each way...and by the time they finish, in 2008, it will be too small!

They are building a super freeway to funnel all these autos into a downtown/ loop system that can’t handle the traffic that exists today.

No one bats an eye at that expense, in fact, you expect your government to build and maintain the interstate, for your use.

Do the folks in Nebraska complain about the cost of the Katy freeway expansion?
I doubt they even know about it. (Well, maybe Mookie knows, but Mookies knows everything!)

You don’t hear too many gripes about the NEC from down here in the swamp...

And I am pretty sure the people who ride it every day don’t miss a minute’s sleep worrying about where the funding for it comes from.

But remove it, and watch the fireworks start!

Not a one of us really complains about NASA, which is the most un-profitable venture you could imagine, and no one expect it to ever make money, but we all "profit" from the things it does.

New medicines, new research tools, weather prediction, cell phone tech...The list goes on and on, but hard cash back?

Not a dime!

The TVA...ever hear some one who get their electricity from the dams gripe that the government spent money on that?

Or complain about the feds changing out a turbine or running new power lines?
Nope...it’s expected...

So, as soon as you, me, and everyone else we can convince gets the idea that a national passenger rail system should make money out of our heads, and start to view it as a public service/utility, we can make it work.

Tell the people you elected this last time around you don’t care if it makes a dime, you want the service.
If they can spend a few million dollars on warthog mating habit research or a hundred million on saving the snail darter fish....they can figure out how to fund and run a passenger train from Chicago to LA on time, at a cost to the user, (you) that is affordable.

Tell your representatives that if they can’t figure it out, you plan on electing someone who can.

They understand votes more than anything else.


Ed

Bravo!
Now, perhaps we could get a private concern to run the food, beverage, and sleeping and parlor service on the trains, and leave the train running to the feds. that way we won't have diners that resemble a mess tent.

Mitch

[edblysard]

Sounds like a Socialist-Clintonista, with severe Pavlovian leanings....



As for Amtrak...in my opinion, I wouldn’t blink an eye at Amtrak becoming a complete ward of the Feds...in fact, I think they should take it over, and run it like a public works project.

I doubt there is an adult here who seriously thinks a passenger train, outside of the NEC, can make enough profit to be self sufficient.

From what I have read, and the opinions of a few friends who were there, even back in the heyday or the Golden Years, the only railroad that consistently made money on their passenger service was Santa Fe, and only because they served a clearly cut, dedicated market, and employed people who loved, and I mean loved, their jobs.

Compare them to, say, Southwest Airlines.
They do the same thing; serve a small, dedicated market with a vengence.

They don’t offer anything beyond a seat, a soft drink and a bag of almonds, and the promise to get you there, when you want to get there, on time, and consistently.

Miss the 12:05 to Salt Lake?

No sweat, there is a 2:05 flight also...in fact; they fly more planes to their system points than anyone else, except UPS and FedEx...

Take away the myth that Amtrak can ever be profitable, it can’t.

Give real power to the guys running it...

Let them take a hard look at the population centers that need train service.

Give them the power of the Feds to seriously put the screws to any freight railroad that doesn’t clear a path for their trains, and reward handsomely those that do.

Get the Class 1s on the carpet; tell them that we are going to upgrade the routes the Feds want, from piddley 45 mph lines to 90mph drag strips, in exchange for their willingness to get out of the way.

Fine the crap out of them, and the dispatcher that doesn’t.
Better yet, make the dispatchers on those dedicated routes/lines Feds...

Sounds like I want to make it a public utility?
You bet.

Why?

Because I sit here and watch while the feds pay upwards of 20 billion dollars to turn a 20 mile stretch of I 10, the Katy Freeway, from a 4 lane each way overcrowded freeway into a super freeway, with eight lanes each way...and by the time they finish, in 2008, it will be too small!

They are building a super freeway to funnel all these autos into a downtown/ loop system that can’t handle the traffic that exists today.

No one bats an eye at that expense, in fact, you expect your government to build and maintain the interstate, for your use.

Do the folks in Nebraska complain about the cost of the Katy freeway expansion?
I doubt they even know about it. (Well, maybe Mookie knows, but Mookies knows everything!)

You don’t hear too many gripes about the NEC from down here in the swamp...

And I am pretty sure the people who ride it every day don’t miss a minute’s sleep worrying about where the funding for it comes from.

But remove it, and watch the fireworks start!

Not a one of us really complains about NASA, which is the most un-profitable venture you could imagine, and no one expect it to ever make money, but we all "profit" from the things it does.

New medicines, new research tools, weather prediction, cell phone tech...The list goes on and on, but hard cash back?

Not a dime!

The TVA...ever hear some one who get their electricity from the dams gripe that the government spent money on that?

Or complain about the feds changing out a turbine or running new power lines?
Nope...it’s expected...

So, as soon as you, me, and everyone else we can convince gets the idea that a national passenger rail system should make money out of our heads, and start to view it as a public service/utility, we can make it work.

Tell the people you elected this last time around you don’t care if it makes a dime, you want the service.
If they can spend a few million dollars on warthog mating habit research or a hundred million on saving the snail darter fish....they can figure out how to fund and run a passenger train from Chicago to LA on time, at a cost to the user, (you) that is affordable.

Tell your representatives that if they can’t figure it out, you plan on electing someone who can.

They understand votes more than anything else.


Ed

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by paugust

Yawn, just another NeoCon obsessed with Clinton. _!_

So, on the one hand I have paugust calling me a NeoCon, and on the other I have Larry Kaufman calling me a communist. I guess that puts me smack dab in the middle of the ole' Bell Curve.

Just remember, when Clinton lied, thousands of Serbs died. BTW, have we rebuilt the Serbian rail network yet? After all, first bombed, first served.

Well would you please make up your mind then.....Which is it? Are you a Neo-Con or a Clintonista???[;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by paugust

Yawn, just another NeoCon obsessed with Clinton. _!_

So, on the one hand I have paugust calling me a NeoCon, and on the other I have Larry Kaufman calling me a communist. I guess that puts me smack dab in the middle of the ole' Bell Curve.

Just remember, when Clinton lied, thousands of Serbs died. BTW, have we rebuilt the Serbian rail network yet? After all, first bombed, first served.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

Cynacism is a cop-out. It is very easy to become cynical. Nothing good ever comes from cynacism.

Fighting cynacism with cynacism is no good, either. It just makes the world more cynical.

Arguing FOR what you believe is harder than knocking the other guy (or his idea) down with a hail of cynacism.

If you want the world to become a more dark and cynical, then pile on the cynacism!

If you want the world to become a better place, then stand up for what you beleive and get busy!

I wish I had your faith still. I lost it for awhile with certain folk and cliques although I see little bits of promise here in there, nothing concrete.[V]

[Anonymous]

Jim:

Pull in your horns - like YESTERDAY!

It is better to be an idiot and say nothing, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

MWH is there to rebuild the IRR from scratch and make it work. This has nothing to do with the morality of, and the morass of legal opinions behind, the second Gulf War.

Leave your opinions about GWB out of this. They are not relevant.

If the State Department would hire Canadians for this job, I would be over there working my heart out for Mark right now.

NAR Guy
Conductor and ex-soldier
Canada

[oltmannd]

Of course, now I have to practice what I preach![:I]

[oltmannd]

Cynacism is a cop-out. It is very easy to become cynical. Nothing good ever comes from cynacism.

Fighting cynacism with cynacism is no good, either. It just makes the world more cynical.

Arguing FOR what you believe is harder than knocking the other guy (or his idea) down with a hail of cynacism.

If you want the world to become a more dark and cynical, then pile on the cynacism!

If you want the world to become a better place, then stand up for what you beleive and get busy!

[Junctionfan]

You have to remember that politics and thinking for yourself doesn't work in most places (or is refused to work). Bush doesn't do anything without his political advisors and spin-doctors giving the greenlight. Politicians don't know or want to think for themselves because then they might actually have to do a good job.

Believe me when I say that the world sympathises as useless politicans are not just an American thing (Primeminister Paul Martin, Premier McGuinty), they are a plague on all nations.