Originally posted by BNSF railfan. [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:19 AM BNSF fan... why are you interested in an entire carload of lumber?? CC Reply dehusman Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Omaha, NE 10,621 posts Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:38 AM You don't "buy a carload of lumber from the UP". The UP doesn't sell lumber. You buy a carload of lumber from Boise Cascade. The UP will charge you (or Boise Cascade) to ship it where ever. Dave H. Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:57 AM The UP price inquiry site is cool. I've been checking out prices of various commodoties and routes. Interesting stuff. And here's what it would cost to have a load of lumber shipped from Longview,Wa. to Blair,Nb.: $3,696.00-$4,944.00 Per Car Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 12:04 PM Here are some avgs for NS http://www.nscorp.com/nscorphtml/speech05/lip0427/lip0427.pdf See page 9. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 12:12 PM QUOTE: You don't "buy a carload of lumber from the UP". The UP doesn't sell lumber. If you give the right price to the right person you just might be able too... if ya know what I mean[(-D] CC Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 12:28 PM Bob Wilcox: Do ytou have any idea of how much traffic moves under tariff authority vs contract authority for rails these days? I doubt if you would know the exact percentage, but is it a large portion? Do most of the large shippers (GM, Ford, etc.) move under contract? thanks ed Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 1:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob Wilcox: Do ytou have any idea of how much traffic moves under tariff authority vs contract authority for rails these days? I doubt if you would know the exact percentage, but is it a large portion? Do most of the large shippers (GM, Ford, etc.) move under contract? thanks ed It depends on the commodity. Things like autos and petrochemicals move on contracts(80%+). Food products and box car traffic such as lumber go mainly by tariff(80%). Western coal is in a transition from 100% contracts to 100%tariffs as contracts expire. A few large intermodal third parties have heritage contracts but the others use tariffs. More and more tarffic will be moving on tariffs unless capital investments need to be protected. Bob Reply tree68 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Northern New York 25,010 posts Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 2:37 PM Wish my aunt had web access. She's now retired, but in her working days she would have made regular use of the type of inquiry Chad did - she worked for a wholesale lumber company. They bought and sold lumber by the car load. She'd be amazed (and her job would have been that much different). Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it... Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 4:10 PM Just for the heck of it I got prices on a couple different routes for several commodities for side by side comparison Prices between LA & Houston lumber $4,066.00-$5,423.00 Per Car scrap metal $4,207.00 Per Car LPG $3,460.00-$4,151.00 Per Car plastics $3,460.00-$4,151.00 Per Car wheat $3,362.00 Per Car catsup $3,340.00-$4,554.00 Per Car oil $3,460.00-$4,730.00 Per Car cement $2,238.00-$4,230.00 Per Car gravel / balast $2,238.00-$3,475.00 Per Car LA & Yuma lumber $1,942.00-$2,428.00 Per Car scrap metal $2,294.00 Per Car LPG $1,908.00-$2,290.00 Per Car plastics $1,908.00-$2,290.00 Per Car wheat $1,427.00 Per Car catsup $1,908.00-$3,041.00 Per Car oil $1,908.00-$2,290.00 Per Car cement $1,848.00-$2,661.00 Per Car gravel / balast $1,848.00-$2,661.00 Per Car I find it interesting how much scrap metal fetches. I also find it interesting how relativly little LPG and oil is. Also the wide differance between gravel & lumber. You could ship 2 loads of gravel for every lumber load. I also noticed there are differences according to the kind of car used. The differance favoring the boxcar (not illustrated) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 4:26 PM No wounder why the Railroads are so FILTHY rich! wow. If one car load costs that much,Id just hate to see what one 140 car loaded Coal Train would cost. It would be stagering. Reply Edit kevarc Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Richland WA 361 posts Posted by kevarc on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 4:44 PM A 100 car train carried 100 tons of coal/car between the PRB and Louisiana is around $180,000 Kevin Arceneaux Mining Engineer, Penn State 1979 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 7:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc A 100 car train carried 100 tons of coal/car between the PRB and Louisiana is around $180,000 WOW! Reply Edit PNWRMNM Member sinceMay 2003 From: US 2,593 posts Posted by PNWRMNM on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:08 PM BNSF FAN You are forgetting the capital cost of that train. Make the math easy, 100 cars at $60,000, $6,000,000. Three new units is another $6,000,000. Now add fuel, labor, track investment, and track maintenance and not much of that $180,000 gets into the stockholder's pockets. Mac Reply kevarc Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Richland WA 361 posts Posted by kevarc on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:19 PM We own our trainsets. Kevin Arceneaux Mining Engineer, Penn State 1979 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:45 PM $180,000 x how many trips per year, 25 maybe? That's $4.5 million per year for the railroad gross. If the utility bought or leased their own cars, then all the railroad is paying for is rent for engines, labor, etc. The railroad has gotta be clearing one or two million annually with each captive coal utility, maybe half a million for utilities with some rail head to head competition. Yeah, I'd say those global investment firms are getting a decent share of what the ratepayers are forking over. Reply Edit MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:46 PM Chad: Thanks for the freight charges. This is what I find most interesting these days on the rails. The LPG rates may be impacted somewhat by the fact that tank cars are not railroad supplied, but owned/leased by shippers. I wonder why the high rate for lumber. Perhaps it is due to specialized nature of the cars, but doubt it. Take a look at most of the rates and you see the value of the commodity drives the freight charges...as it should. Lower valued products tend to stay close to the point of manufacture or distribution. I seriously doubt if many cars of scrap metal move at $4200 per car. Mostly I would think those would move within a few hundred miles. I took advantage of light work schedule, good weather, and four CN eastbounds stacked up to go train watching. The revenue generated on these trains had to have been staggering. For instance...CN 396 (Memphis - Toronto) had 152 cars. Many of those cars were tank cars. Most were loads. Highly rated freight moving long distances. CN 398 off of the UP had 89 cars ( powered by a WC SD45 btw) and CN394 from the BNSF only had 86 cars. Throw in 708 with 120 loads of PR Coal from the UP and there was some serious coin in the cash register today. All in all, a very enjoyable two hours. Reply kevarc Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Richland WA 361 posts Posted by kevarc on Thursday, April 28, 2005 8:48 AM We get 3 to 4 trains a week. During turnarounds we do not get coal, so figure about 168 trians a year. And as I have stated before, we are a captive facility. Studies show that if we had competitive shipping, we could save over $14+million a year. There is also a price saving for using aluminum cars - about $0.50-0.60/ton A few hard numbers from other cases that are a matter of public record. Hugo Power Plant in Olkahoma - their price AFTER doing a buildout went from $1.5/mmbtu to $1/mmbtu Houston Power & Light had a drop of about the same size when they did a buildout. Kevin Arceneaux Mining Engineer, Penn State 1979 Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, April 28, 2005 9:06 AM Kevin, By buildout you mean building a spur from a competing railroad to the plant, Right? Reply kevarc Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Richland WA 361 posts Posted by kevarc on Thursday, April 28, 2005 9:21 AM yes Studies have shown I we build one, which includes a major bridge over a navigatable river, we could recover the costs in less than 5 years. Kevin Arceneaux Mining Engineer, Penn State 1979 Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, April 28, 2005 9:29 AM 5 years seems like a lot. How many miles do you have to build? And how much is the bridge estimated to cost? Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, April 28, 2005 9:36 AM Five years payback IS a long time. The internal rate of return hurdle for Conrail in the mid 1990s was roughly 30% which is roughly a 3 year payback. DIscretionary projects with longer rates of return didn't get done. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply tatans Member sinceMay 2004 4,115 posts Posted by tatans on Thursday, April 28, 2005 10:14 AM Very interesting subject and superb answers, so when you go to pick up your brand new cadillac SUV, check the freight charges now that you know what it costs to ship a freight car, that will surprise your car dealer. Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, April 28, 2005 10:51 AM Autorack rates are not available on UPs price site. That is one of the things I was interested in. I guess most auto transportation prices are on a contract basis so there is no need. The same goes for coal rates but kevin has done a good job of informing us on that. Reply kevarc Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Richland WA 361 posts Posted by kevarc on Thursday, April 28, 2005 1:12 PM The payback period varies on the costs and the savings from the lower cost of transportation. The low end is 3.5 years with a high end of 6 years. I just picked a conservative value. It would be about a 10 mile line and the cost would be around $46 million Kevin Arceneaux Mining Engineer, Penn State 1979 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 8:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Chad: I wonder why the high rate for lumber. Perhaps it is due to specialized nature of the cars, but doubt it. Take a look at most of the rates and you see the value of the commodity drives the freight charges...as it should. Lower valued products tend to stay close to the point of manufacture or distribution. I seriously doubt if many cars of scrap metal move at $4200 per car. Mostly I would think those would move within a few hundred miles. I asked a local scrap shipper in Lewiston Idaho where they send their gondolas of scrap metal (about 10 a week). He stated they send all of it to the Deep South. That's a couple a thousand miles. I also have a friend that works in the timber industry. They currently send a good portion of their lumber loads to the Midwest and East Coast. Another couple a thousand miles. It is interesting to note that the local shortline railroad has competitive rate setting from both UP and BNSF. I wonder how much that plays into the longer hauls? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 8:34 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc We get 3 to 4 trains a week. During turnarounds we do not get coal, so figure about 168 trians a year. And as I have stated before, we are a captive facility. Studies show that if we had competitive shipping, we could save over $14+million a year. There is also a price saving for using aluminum cars - about $0.50-0.60/ton A few hard numbers from other cases that are a matter of public record. Hugo Power Plant in Olkahoma - their price AFTER doing a buildout went from $1.5/mmbtu to $1/mmbtu Houston Power & Light had a drop of about the same size when they did a buildout. I was part of a lobbying effort by a local economic development agency here in North Central Idaho trying to get one of the proposed coal fired power plant proponents to locate up here instead of in Southern Idaho. I pointed out that the rail rates to get the coal to a plant located in Southern Idaho (served only by UP) would be close to twice the rate of locating here in North Central Idaho where we are served by shortline proxy by both UP and BNSF. The one drawback of course is the transmission bottleneck between the upper PNW and California (the intended market), whereas there is much more available transmission capacity running from Southern Idaho to California. The one thing I could not answer (and perhaps you could) is, would the savings from having competitive rail rates outweight the cost of upgrading transmission? If we're talking $15 million a year in savings by having competitive rail rates, wouldn't that make up for the enterprise's share of upgrading the BPA lines running south? Reply Edit kevarc Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Richland WA 361 posts Posted by kevarc on Thursday, April 28, 2005 9:09 PM To be honest, I don't know. I'll ask around at work and see if I can get an idea. Kevin Arceneaux Mining Engineer, Penn State 1979 Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
QUOTE: You don't "buy a carload of lumber from the UP". The UP doesn't sell lumber.
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob Wilcox: Do ytou have any idea of how much traffic moves under tariff authority vs contract authority for rails these days? I doubt if you would know the exact percentage, but is it a large portion? Do most of the large shippers (GM, Ford, etc.) move under contract? thanks ed
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc A 100 car train carried 100 tons of coal/car between the PRB and Louisiana is around $180,000
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Chad: I wonder why the high rate for lumber. Perhaps it is due to specialized nature of the cars, but doubt it. Take a look at most of the rates and you see the value of the commodity drives the freight charges...as it should. Lower valued products tend to stay close to the point of manufacture or distribution. I seriously doubt if many cars of scrap metal move at $4200 per car. Mostly I would think those would move within a few hundred miles.
QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc We get 3 to 4 trains a week. During turnarounds we do not get coal, so figure about 168 trians a year. And as I have stated before, we are a captive facility. Studies show that if we had competitive shipping, we could save over $14+million a year. There is also a price saving for using aluminum cars - about $0.50-0.60/ton A few hard numbers from other cases that are a matter of public record. Hugo Power Plant in Olkahoma - their price AFTER doing a buildout went from $1.5/mmbtu to $1/mmbtu Houston Power & Light had a drop of about the same size when they did a buildout.
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