Signal aspect at interlockings

[Anonymous]

I'm curious about the signals at an interlocking where two roads cross at grade.Are the signals dark until a train approaches, or are they constantly red until permission is granted to cross?

[Anonymous]

It depends on whether or not they are set up to be approach lit, or constant display. Most automatic interlockings ( without a control operator) are set up so the first train on the approach circuit gets the signal. Interlockings with either a on site control operator (tower)or a remote operator (dispatcher) are lined up by the control operator by request.

[Anonymous]

I've seen it mentioned in a WP Employees Timetable something about a crew member pushing a button in a box near the crossing. I would imagine this would be for a remote operator that you're talking about.

[wabash1]

the button is use for setting the signal in stop in all directions at automatic interlockings. what this does if you approach the signal and it is displaying stop you do as the timetable says as far as opposing traffic. then push button wait the prescribed time and it should clear.

[BR60103]

Here in Brampton we have a crossing between CN and CP (well, B&O now). The interlocking is controlled and signals are set to clear by the dispatcher, so they may show green for a long time before the train appears (especially if it's miserable weather and you're waiting on the platform...)
The situation is complcated by a road crossing located between the station platform and the crossing. The crossing gates lower as the train approaches, but if it waits too long at the platform, the signals go red and the gates rise. Then the conductor has to push a button on the platform to lower the gates and get a green light.
GO trains used to run all the way to the end of the platform and the signal was placed there before the road crossing. Some crews used to run past the signal (called "Knocking it down") so that they claimed the block and kept the gates down. This was frowned upon and possibly illegal.
--David

[Anonymous]

I WORK FOR CSX IN OHIO. I CAN ONLY TELL YOU WHAT
I SEE DAY IN AND DAY OUT. THE SIGNALS AT THE INTERLOCKINGS I RUN ACROSS SHOW A STOP ASPECT AND REMAIN RED UNTIL THE DISPATCHER OR TOWER OPERATER LINES UP THE ROUTE.

[Anonymous]

By law, if it is a true "interlocking", all home signals are to display the most restrictive indication, (stop). Only once a route has been "lined-up" either by an operator AT the interlocking, or a dispatcher hundreds of miles away, will a proceed signal be displayed for ONE route only. Some seldom-used lines will have what is referred to as an "automatic-interlocker", These can operate several ways. Most common, is the so called, "first-come-first-served" type. Approach circuts detect a train within the outer boundarys of the interlocker, and will line that route up. A few of the older installations will require a train to stop at the inner-most limits of the interlocker, a member of the crew will then activate a device, usually a switch key, or a button enclosed in a locked box. After a prescribed time delay, the mechanism will initiate the interlocking process, and a proceed indication will be displayed.
On some real "backwaters" operations, maintenance expenses do not justify such equipment, and a simple stop board is employed. But, that is not a real interlocking.
Hope this answers your question.
Todd C.

[Anonymous]

the pushbutton type interlockings are "automatic interlockings," the style that you are required to talk to the DS for are manual interlockings. There are alot of GCOR rules that govern the use of interlockings.

[wabash1]

most interlockings i go thru are automatic its cheaper than having a operator on duty 24hrs a day to line you thru. and as far as the backwater operations, well just run that stop board one time and see how long you have a job. but for sake of arguement. define a interlocker or interlocking???

[Anonymous]

This is how the CN defines an interlocking: AN ARRANGEMENT OF SIGNALS AND SIGNAL APPLIANCES SO INTERCONNECTED THAT THEIR MOVEMENTS MUST SUCCEED EACH OTHER IN PROPER SEQUENCE AND FOR WHICH INTERLOCKING RULES ARE IN EFFECT. IT MAY BE OPERATED MANUALLY, REMOTELY OR AUTOMATICALLY.

[wabash1]

with that definition exsplain how todd can say that an automatic interlocking is not a true interlocking.

[Anonymous]

When you pass a signal, it is called knocking it down. It is called that because when your train fouls that block/interlocking the signal will go red on either end of that block. If we run past a signal it is called a "violation." Running a red board is illegal and grounds to have your engineer's card pulled. See 10 deadly sins of an engineer.

[Anonymous]

Todd, I don't know what RR you work on, but here on the BNSF Automatic or Manual they are both interlockings. Def "interlocking: Signal appliances that are interconnected so that each of their movements follows the other in a proper sequence. Interlockings may be operated manually or automatically." quoted from GCOR 2000 4th edition. You should have known......

[Anonymous]

Before making a statement, read the entire post.
Go back to my original posting, and tell me where I said that anything better than a "stop sign" at the diamond was not a true interlocking. Remote, Manned, or Automatic. An interlocking is an interlocking. But a "stop board" at a diamond does not constitute an interlocking. If you don't believe me, ask the FRA. I have spent a considerable amount of time in interlocking towers around Michigan, and we don't have any special rules up here either.
Todd C.

[Anonymous]

My bad, Todd. I didn't catch the stop sign part. And I do agree with you. No interconnected signals, no interlocking.

[Saxman]

The "STOP BOARD" is usally found at railroad crossing at grades that have very few train movements. In the Grand Trunk Wetern Operating Rules book this was called a "Non Interlocked Railway Crossing." One still exists today on what is called the Pontiac Service Track in

[Saxman]

The "STOP BOARD" is usually found at railroad crossing at grades that have very few train movements. In the Grand Trunk Western Operating Rules book (Since replaced by U.S. Opertaing Rules) this was called a "Non Interlocked Railway Crossing." One still exists today on what is called the Pontiac Service Track in
Pontiac, MI.

The Ann Arbor Railroad and Chessie System(CSX) had this type of arrangement at their crossing in Alma, MI.

[Soo2610]

There is another one on the Escanaba and Lake Superior. Used to go past it on the way to Marquette when my son went to school there. Problem is that I can't remember if it was in Pembine, Wisc, along hwy 141 or Channing in the UP along hwy 95.

[Anonymous]

No big deal, sometimes I question the knowlege of some of the participants in the forum though. I always try to only answer questions that I am qualified to answer, and if I am not sure about something, I will state so. I have another "debate" in another discussion here, concerning the heritage of the Conrail E-units. Someone out there insists that the 4022 was of PRR heritage. I know, for a fact that 4022 was the EX-Erie Lackawanna 833. But, some folks.......
Todd C.

[wabash1]

ok. then exsplain the statement and i qoute." i have spent a considerable amount of time in interlocking towers around michigan, and we dont have any special rules up here either." just what are you trying to say here?

[Anonymous]

Well, let me see if I can "exsplain" it to you.
I am familiar with interlockings, you, obviously, are not. I suppose I was just lucky to catch the tail-end of the "tower era", but in the 15-odd years I spent hanging around towers, I gained a considerable amount of knowlege on how they functioned. I don't post statements here that I am not sure of, if I say something, it comes from experience, not opinion.
Todd C.

[wabash1]

you side stepped that one didnt you. well let me see if i can shed some light on it for you todd. I ask about special rules. you didnt answer that becouse you didnt know, but you did try and insult me. in the 15 years that you say you hung in towers you learned something. obviously not enough. Myself on the other hand do have a little exsperiance with interlockings, in the run i make i have 5 to deal with 2 manual and 3 automatic, and on another section of the division there is a crossing with a stop sign. now if i would have listen to you i would be in violation of rule 402 and rule 462 in the ns gray rule book.( look it up as you have said you run for the ns) and these are fra rules not ns. the territory i work is dark,abs,rc/tc so i have the best of all worlds. to sum it up, Todd when it comes to detail you dont have the answers. and to make a statement that there are no special rules at interlockings in michigan is wrong. have a good day.

[Anonymous]

Thanx for the reply. I am right with you on the "question," of the knowledge of some participants. I have been corrected on issues that I know that I am right on by railfans (not all are bad, just some are know-it-alls). The shine sure seams to wear off of the RR when you have to live it as opposed to having the RR as a hobby........

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone I am Rodney and I am a conductor/switchman for the BNSF I make runs on a lot of subdivisions that have several types of interlockings which are goverened by different rules the main type of interlocking i run accrose is the manual type that is controled by a control operator/dispatcher some of them are not controled by our dispatchers the one taht are controled by our dispatcher if it is all red i.e. stop indication we i.e. the crew contacts the control operator or tone up the dispatcher to get the signal or get talked by the stop inication if the indication is stop there would have been a hard yellow on the approach to the interlocking. The next type of interlocking i see is an automatic interlocking now these can get a crew in trouble if they are not on there toes they can have a clear approach signal (green) and be all red this has happened once to me luckly there was a perminent 20 mph speed restriction in the area if the indication is stop i.e. red i have to go to the box and check for no conflicting movements by the other railroad before I unlock the box and pu***he button to get the line up the automatic interlocking is controled by first come first serve something funny here is sometimes dispatchers have trains stop completly through the interlocking to get some hot shots through. There are also some other interlockings there ara gated these are singaled there is usualy an approach signal that is most often indicating approach they can be gated for or against these are governed by diffetren rules in the GCOR and some have stop signs at them these are federal stops in all directions at these there is most usualy a tower by them to talk or give a proceede signal to the crew. The best way i can say is manual interlocking go to the man automatic go to the box.

[edblysard]

Depends on the road. We have a manual interlocker. The signal is dark untill you approach within 50 feet. The main it crosses is old sp, tno. If you get a red, you walk to the signal box, pu***he button, and wait. You get a "time out" Yes, I know it sound weird. What you are doing it startimg a timer which checks all the approach circuts for traffic.If there is traffic present you stll have a red. Because the "traffic" may be nothing more than a switch left open, or a car left on the main around the bend, you can flag the interlocking. After the time out, 5 mins for this one, you get to go look at the opposing signals. If dark, and yours is still red, you must "flag " thru the interlocking. Acutally a stop, look and listen thing.If you get lucky, you get an lumar aspect, (color of the signal) which on most roads is green. If the opposing signal is red, and yours is red, you must also flag thru after checking to make sure no traffic is coming. On fully signaled interlockers, some remain dark untill you hit the approach circut, some remain lit constantly, depends on the road. Most are dark here in texas, it saves on bulbs. If you have a copy of the GCOR, (general code of opperating rules) look it up, although each road has its own way of doing this, and it is often posted in their timetable.

[Anonymous]

Greetings, all:

Have read this ENTIRE thread with some interest and now would like to make a few points and clarifications to what has already been posted:

-- Ed of Houston writes of a "lumar" aspect, which, according to how I'm reading his post, is "usually green". I think it should be pointed out green and LUNAR (a blui***inted white color), are each individual aspects with very different meanings: Green implies clear, proceed with no further restriction, while Lunar is universally understood as RESTRICTING, which in layman's terms means "proceed at your own risk, ready to stop short of anything you could run into or run over."

-- Read Todd C.'s original post twice to be sure I knew what he was saying and I see nothing factually wrong with what he said...stop signs are NOT interlocked to display only one route (technically they display NO route, they rely on a fallible, non-interlocked human being to grant verbal permission), therefore no interlocking. Bobbishna, lighten up...

-- Even though the basic concepts of interlocking rules are the same throughout the industry, when it comes to flagging your way through interlockings (automatic OR manual), every rulebook (and in the case of the GCOR, some of the member railroads) have some differences in procedures: Do I place fusees on the conflicting route? If the interlocking is controlled by the "other" railroad, do I need MY Dispatcher's permission through THEIR interlocking IN ADDITION to their permission?
The point is: What is "by the book" in, say, the GCOR can get you fired on NS, and neither book would be much help on CSX, etc., etc. The rails on this thread know their stuff for their home roads, but some of you guys are comparing apples and oranges.

-- EVERYONE has something valuable to contribute. (Just wish some of you didn't package it in a 5-gallon pail of manure and then wonder why we can't find it.)

-- And just so everyone knows where my pedigree is from to be making the statements I'm making, I am a Rules Examiner for Amtrak. I am qualified on (and teach classes on) GCOR (including BNSF, CP and UP special instructions), NORAC, CSX, CN/IC and NS (a.k.a."the little gray book").

That's enough for now. Fire away, flamethrowers!

Harold

P.S. Everyone (myself included) could stand to use the spell-checker on this contraption more often.

[wabash1]

Very well put, but you did say one thing wrong, and i probley gave you the reason to state it wrong. Its the little grey bible. thou shalt not or we will fire you.

[Anonymous]

Touche, Wabash! I can't argue that one!

Harold

[edblysard]

Harold, you right, my machine cant spell worth a hoot, and I can't either. Yes, I meant lunar, not lumar, and on the port, all of "our" track is "yard limits:, so restricted is the top speed, our rule book say 20mph. As for the GCOR, I pointed out that each road seems to have it's own way of doing things. The discription I gave was for us rockpounder on the port, but I recomonded the person asking check some timetables, as it differs road to road. As for manure, didnt know I piled it that high or deep...but then again, I work for a railroad, so...

[wabash1]

ED i bet there is more to the meaning restricted speed that you did get into, in our book it says a speed to stop with in half the distant of sight. now i bring this up couse you need to use this to your advantage, if the yard master has screwed you around or some thing they have done couse you to work over and you needed to be home for the wifes tupperware party. then you can drag your feet and they cant say a word couse there is a max speed not a min speed. I have learned from some of the best on how to dog with light engine working at restricted speed.