"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Originally posted by Wooster25 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply dehusman Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Omaha, NE 10,621 posts Posted by dehusman on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:11 AM That trainmaster won't be fired. He doesn't have anything to worry about. If Amtrak was speeding they were violating the rules. They have no authority to violate the rules. Especially since they are carrying passengers. Dave H. Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:15 AM Dave-Read the last sentence of the original post. Or, they could fire the radar gun. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:16 AM ...Well was the train speeding or not...Both are indicated above....?? Quentin Reply coborn35 Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Duluth,Minnesota,USA 4,015 posts Posted by coborn35 on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:26 AM No, the train was not speeding and no, the trainmaster will not be fired because it was the radar gun that made an error, although he may have been a little overeager. Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..." The Missabe Road: Safety First Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 23, 2005 10:17 AM The story I heard is that the TM yanked the engineer because he was doing over the 35-mph freight-train speed limit, but that Amtrak trains are in fact allowed 45 on the stretch in question. It was not the fault of the radar gun--guns don't kill passenger trains; people kill them. If I were Amtrak, I'd be out to recover damages from that little episode. The things I have to look forward to when I ride the Capitol next month! Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 10:34 AM Maybe there is more to the story, but on reflection I find it hard believe that the action of immediately removing the engineer was in order. A stop and a warning and initiating investigation proceedures would seem to be more appropriate. I have heard that the NS is very rigid with the enforcement of safety rules, but this sounds like a "shoot now and ask questions later" event. On the face, it doesn't sound like something a good manager would do. If I had been a passenger on the train, and later discovered that the delay was due to the action of an oversealous safety enforcer, I would have been inclined to write some rather sharp letters of complaint. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Saturday, April 23, 2005 10:39 AM Whatever happened to old days when trainmen were required to know there speed without radar guns or speedometers. Come on, you mean to tell me he couldn't tell ,within a few miles an hour, how fast the train was going without the radar gun. Then he would know the gun was wrong (if that was the case). Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 10:54 AM Chad Good point. I know a fairly experienced Illinois State Highway Patrolman who tells me that he and his co-workers can eyeball a vehicle and come very close to the speed that will come up on the gun. (I know him because he is a business client of mine, NOT because he ever busted me for speeding.) OK? Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:05 PM Jay, Here in California the CHP didn't have radar for a long time (unless local government bought them for there area). I know a few of them were proud of the fact that they could tell your speed without them. One officer that is a friend of my dads never even turned his on after they finaly got them. I think he said something like "Radar...we don't need no stinking radar!" Reply dehusman Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Omaha, NE 10,621 posts Posted by dehusman on Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:11 PM I missed the last sentence. If it was the radar gun then he needs to have it checked. If he didn't know the speed at the location he was testing, then shame on him. Regarding pulling the crew out of service immediately, speeding can be a decertifiable rule violation (the engineer loses his engineer's license) so the crew has to be removed from service. On the freight railroads west of the Mississippi, an engineer found going 10 mph over the speed limit will be removed from service. Because it is so serious, you can't just "eyeball" it, the official has to use a radar gun or a speed recorder to determine that the speed was violated. Dave H. Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:34 PM I understand you can't just eyeball it. I meant he should have been able to tell if the radar gun is that far off. Sorry, I should have been clearer. Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,820 posts Posted by mudchicken on Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:38 PM Somebody forgot to calibrate! (This amuses this surveyor to no end! Technology in the wrong hands is license for stupidity.) Another "buttonpusher" bites the dust. [(-D][(-D][(-D] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply alcodave Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: marion 234 posts Posted by alcodave on Saturday, April 23, 2005 2:05 PM Did this happen on tuesday night/wednesday morning run? #29 was really late Wednesday morning at Sandusky Ohio it Arrived around 7:30 am about two hours late.I am glad it was late because I got to video the train in daylight it had an all Superliner consist and a privitly owned domecar and an observastion car on the rear. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 23, 2005 2:21 PM Radar? Obselete. Need to arm with Laser. One time on I-83 long ago in PA, A undercover trooper stepped out of his unmarked Mustang and leveled his Radar gun at my rig from about 70 feet away, I will always remember that to my dying day as I had to decide if I was under attack and swing the truck to take him out (kill him) or stand fast and let him get my speed. The physical act of leveling the gun and the body's weaver stance to hold it steady was just too similar to a combat position. The wire from his gun leading into the car is what saved him. (And me) Use laser. Much better and more idiot proof than radar. Safer too. Reply Edit csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Saturday, April 23, 2005 6:48 PM come on people...please read the thread better.... the train was not speeding.... the radar gun was calibrated....it was actions that a trainmaster thought was correct ..untill he got all the facts and found out he was wrong..... please read eveything befor you comment.... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply morseman Member sinceJuly 2004 From: Ontario - Canada 463 posts Posted by morseman on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:22 PM on my numerous travels on Amtrak & using my scanner when passing defect detectors I have never heard them giving the speed of the train. Do some railroads have such detectors and would it not be an easy item to install on the default detectors ??? Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:25 PM Highiron, Had something close to your experience just a few days ago... Across from our yard, there is a double set of overpasses...and HPD loves to hide in the dip between the two, and radar folks coming down the first one... Well, on the way to work, just before sunrise, I hit the top doing 55...the speed limit is 45. So I come zipping over and down this thing, and a HPD officer steps out, from inbetween a warehouse front and a oak tree, steps right out in front of me, and holds his hand up in the classic stop position, plam out, fingers up...I got darn near zero stoping distance...thank god for 4 wheel disc brakes. I leave a weeks worth of tire on the ground, and stop a few feet from running over this fool! The guy walks up to my window, with his laser gun tucked under his arm,(HPD uses the laser gun)...now, I got coffee all over the dash of my brand new car, and all over me for that matter...he hitchs up his gun belt, and says "son, were you looking at your speedometer?" Coffee-dash-wet pants-20 something year old cop calling me son...I looked him straight in the face and said, "no, you ***hole, if I had been looking at my speedometer, you'd be dead right now" His partner, a some what older guy, walks out from between the warehouse and the tree, looking kinda amused...the kid cop is trying to think of something to say to me...the senior cop take the laser gun, flicks it on, read the speed, turns it to me so I can see, says, "Sir, try to keep it down under 50, OK?" He flags me on, and as I drive away, I hear him talking to the kid, "boy, are you stupid, or what?".... Sheer luck on both of our parts, had he been a second later, or I had been going any faster, I would have run right over him...just enough light for me to see a shape moving in front of me...any earlier, and I would'nt have seen a thing. They spent the better part of the next four hours filling their citation books, (we can watch them from the yard, the street is right beside us) and I never saw the kid step out in traffic again.... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Saturday, April 23, 2005 10:15 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by morseman on my numerous travels on Amtrak & using my scanner when passing defect detectors I have never heard them giving the speed of the train. Do some railroads have such detectors and would it not be an easy item to install on the default detectors ??? Yes they do have em'. I belive they are all (if not all at least some are) capable of giving not just speed but also ambient temprature and axle count too. It just depends on how they are set up. Where I used to live on the coast line my nearest detector reported speed. That made it easy to tell if the train was passenger or freight as they had different speed limits (60/40). Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Sunday, April 24, 2005 12:21 AM If it was the radar gun that was faulty, I'm guessing it was a Mineta radar gun. The "Mineta" never gets it right with Amtrak. CC Reply mvlandsw Member sinceDecember 2001 1,190 posts Posted by mvlandsw on Sunday, April 24, 2005 4:21 AM The engine has an event recorder. That should settle how fast the train was going. Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Sunday, April 24, 2005 8:54 AM Amazing, some of these replies!?!?!?! This is what always bothers me, what have they done to the TM responsible for this fiasco and how far up did it have to go before someone said they weren't violating, they were well within the legal speed? Grievous errors like that usually result in a crew being removed from service but is the TM still working? They usually puni***hem by transferring them to some deep, dark hole somewhere, we lose our job, they get transferred. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 24, 2005 2:47 PM Defective radar guns? TM hiding in the weeds at 1:AM? Stopping a psgr train? What's going on here? Oh yea, NS is really cut in here. We are out op testing w/defective equip, TM doesn't know the correct maximum speed and we're going to stop the train and yank the engr off. For what, brownie points? Yep, we have a real cut in know it all TM who is staying on top of things. My parents are riding the Capitol to DC this summer and this is what they have to look forward to at CLE? Dad will be sure to flip the bird to out litte weed weasel when they pass by in the comfort of their roomette Reply Edit csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Monday, April 25, 2005 4:05 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Amazing, some of these replies!?!?!?! This is what always bothers me, what have they done to the TM responsible for this fiasco and how far up did it have to go before someone said they weren't violating, they were well within the legal speed? Grievous errors like that usually result in a crew being removed from service but is the TM still working? They usually puni***hem by transferring them to some deep, dark hole somewhere, we lose our job, they get transferred. the crew would get back to work ...the union would see to that... and get all the backpay untill it was settled in the investigation...but as the person that posted this in the first place...it came out right away...so im betting the crew was never "removed" from service...and even if they where...they would be back to work right away....as far as the trainmaster... he will get an***chewing form his superiors... but odds are he will keep his job..but im sure he will not be so fast to pull the trigger next time around.... my 2 cents on the whole thing is that the trainmaster is new to the area dosnt know all the speed zones and to what they apply to....and is out to make a name for himself...and got burned... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:01 AM [#ditto] The the drop in "on-time" payment from Amtrak to NS will probably be small, and on the scale of all things that could happen, I wouldn't put this in the category of a great big deal. If my understanding that the NS runs a tight ship is correct, managers there don't excape being called on the carpet for their mistakes. Unlike an issue where a union member is accused of a mistake or rule violation, whatever the trainmaster gets is not going to be generally reported to the NS employees or the public. That's just the way it works. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:22 AM a couple years back my girlfriend an i were out driving back to my house when she smoked a deer with her car. we called up the local county sherriff's office and they sent out a deputy an hour or 2 later. after all the reporting and paperwork was done we got to bs'ing with the cop about radar guns, turns out he never uses his. when he showed me why i was a little taken aback. he turned the gun on and then turned on the fan for the hvac, on low the gun showed something like 16 mph, on high it showed 45 or so. the interference from the fan motor threw off the radar gun that far. it was a little disturbing, if someone had been driving that car on a hot summer's day with the a/c on high he'd shoot someone who's really doing 60 and it'll show 95. Reply Edit Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. 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Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Quentin
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
23 17 46 11
QUOTE: Originally posted by morseman on my numerous travels on Amtrak & using my scanner when passing defect detectors I have never heard them giving the speed of the train. Do some railroads have such detectors and would it not be an easy item to install on the default detectors ???
QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX Amazing, some of these replies!?!?!?! This is what always bothers me, what have they done to the TM responsible for this fiasco and how far up did it have to go before someone said they weren't violating, they were well within the legal speed? Grievous errors like that usually result in a crew being removed from service but is the TM still working? They usually puni***hem by transferring them to some deep, dark hole somewhere, we lose our job, they get transferred.
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