Originally posted by oltmannd [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 25, 2005 10:25 AM Should have read: Sure you may have seen a few "young" persons but in general those "young" people who use the train are a on vast minority to more elderly riders. [:o)][:D] Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 25, 2005 10:20 AM Sure you may have seen a few "young" persons but in general those on the train in my opinion are in a very large minority. [:o)][8D] Originally posted by Muddy Creek Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:09 AM In 1976, the Phila to NY fare was $5.25, $6.25 for the Metroliner. Gas costs about $0.60 then. Now, the Amtrak fare is $50, $93 for the Metroliner and gas costs about $2.40. Admittedly, the rail service is better now, but maybe Amtrak fares are too high. It may be that the game Amtrak is playing is maximizing the revenue given their equipment constraints. With bettter access to capital, Amtrak could buy or lease more coaches and lengthen trains for a small incremental cost and if the demand elasticity was right, make more than the incremental cost back in increased revenue. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 8:55 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman Well cut the Northeast Corridor from Amtrak and save 30 plus billion .... Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a substantial ridership on the Northeast Corridor? That sounds like telling the Postal Service to save money by cutting mail service to Northeast Cities. Wayne Reply Edit jockellis Member sinceMay 2002 From: Just outside Atlanta 422 posts Posted by jockellis on Sunday, April 24, 2005 8:54 PM I saw on PBS today that flying to Singapore costs 6.5ยข per mile. Tough to beat that. Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers Reply conrailman Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NS Main Line at MP12 Blairsville,Pa 830 posts Posted by conrailman on Sunday, April 24, 2005 6:34 PM Well cut the Northeast Corridor from Amtrak and save 30 plus billion amtrak operates 100 of own train to 1200 trains of other railroads in Northeast Corridor is Black Hole of Money Pit, Everything to Corridor not to the National System where it should Go for New Cars like Brand new order of 500 Superliners, 50 New Viewliners Diner Cars, Viewliners Lounge Cars 50 , 150 Viewliners Coaches, 50 Baggage Cars.[:D] Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:38 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Well A/trak has to compete against the jet plane. In my opinion most A/trak customers are elderly & afraid to fly. Interesting opinion. Fantasy, if my observations on the Adirondack are correct. Wayne Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:06 PM The question is if they raised fares just 50% how much would they lose due to loss of patronage? [:o)][:D] Originally posted by jeaton [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:56 PM In 1999 the subsidy for heavy rail in the USA was 64% Here are some current figures for trains in California: (Dollars in Millions) Pacific Surfliners Revenue $27.7 Expenses $48.3 Farebox Ratio 57.3% Subsidy 42.7% San Joaquins Revenue $22.7 Expences $50.9 Farebox Ratio 44.6% Subsidy 53.4% Capitol Corridor Revenue $16.4 Expenses $39.7 Farebox Ratio 41.3% Subsidy 58.7% The sudsidies for 2001 (the earlist figures I found) were 46.9%, 56.7% and 62.3% I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:44 PM dldance- Still even if those costs you say are a given still have to be payed for. Some people who take the train do not have to pay for all that. Nothing realy is a given. Owning a car and taking the train is a luxury. The best way to live..... exept for when comuting. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:35 PM dldance- ya ok, it works for you wich is an example. The real big difference between Europe and USA is not realy taxes or gas prices or competition, but population density, wich favors HSR in Europe and the way things are in USA favors the car. Not that there aren't more millions of cars in Europe then here. But even parts of USA the population is increasing and may catch up to Europe because Europe is not increasing very much. Even the western USA is becoming less western all the time. Even more so look at Japan. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:38 AM dldance- That's way high. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but It is more like the grant request for Operating Expense is around $700 million. I think that is something less than half than operating revenue, so a 50% increase would do the trick. BIG IF! That works only if you could keep all the business. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:11 AM I think the real issue is that Amtrak would need to raise fares about 300% to offset their purported operating losses. dd Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:31 AM 440 - Note I said marginal cost per mile. I have to have a car or truck so the registration, license, insurance, and maintenance are a given. I can either chose to drive cross country - which I often do (to the tune of 30 - 40,000 miles per year) or I can fly (which I do about every two weeks) or I can take Amtrak (which I have done once when I had the time). At the time of my Amtrak trip, I thought the fare was high for a sleeper - but I justified it by including the prices of meals and hotels in my comparison. I must say that Amtrak lived up to my best expectations with great service. I will do it again. dd Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:18 AM If I may I would like to give you a little analogy here between lets us say the turtle & the hare. I worked for Cunard line who operated the steamships Queen Mary & Queen Elizabeth. Besides being queens of the sea they were usually fully booked every week of the year that they sailed. Now the voyage took 5 days more/less. Now go back in time 48 years to the advent of the 707 & Trans Atlantic flight. In no time flat after the 707s started flying the queens were M/T & within 5 years withdrawn from service. I think that is a pretty good analogy of todays A/trak vs todays jets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:11 AM Well A/trak has to compete against the jet plane. In my opinion most A/trak customers are elderly & afraid to fly. As they go elsewhere all you will see is a continued dropoff of patronage except in the NEC. Here are some samples of airfares from where I live. FLL to LV $238.00 R/T via Delta FLL to Omaha $116.00 R/tT via SW FLL to Phila $120.00 R/T via US Air (last Dec) So besides cheap airline rates you get to your destination in hours & not days as with A/trak/[:o)][:D] Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:52 AM dldance- 13 cents a mile eh? Well if gas is twice as high in Europe that would be still only 26 cents. Still a bargan, of course you have to buy a car , register it, pay insurance, parking and maintance, for the real cost per mile, and still pay taxes too. Or at least rent one. Insurance in Europe is lower then in USA. They also have more fuel efficient cars to choose from to offset the price in gas for travel costs. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:35 AM One of the reasons European railways have developed HSR was that the old speeds of passenger trains were too slow to charge enough. You need busssiness travelers and for that you need speed for short travel times. A fast train can charge more per mile AND cover more miles, not as labour intensive but more technoligical. The European rails would be in a sorry state today if there was no HSR between the biggest populated centers and if they were still using the old method trains. Their rails would be loosing even more money and road and air traffic would be gridlock. It is a more densly populated place then USA. Most citizens in Europe are entiteled to discounts of various types and conditions, only bussiness and tourists pay full price. It is the price that bussiness men will pay that matters. Amtrak is too slow to charge these high prices. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:28 AM With businesses like this, you have to be careful and not gouge. Profit by volume is better than gouging just because of competition. However, there is a fine line between that and under-pricing. For the longer distance travel, it might be better to increase prices. To take the train from St.Catharines to Montreal is about $200 to $300 but ridership is still quite high. From St.Catharines to Toronto is about $25-$40. All depends on how much time you book the ticket. Andrew Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:14 AM Trains in Europe can get twice as much per fare as the price of gasoline is twice as high, if not more..... Amtrak fares reflect the price they can sell tickets at, which is a direct link to the prices of air travel and bus travel.....in America.....not Europe.... Of course, the taxes on gasoline in Europe is much higher, paying for their train service too.... which is not the case here in America..... The Europeans actually have a modern up to date train service, running several trains daily as opposed to the obsolete daily train service in much of America..... The key statistic is revenue miles..... The more frequency and the quicker the times the more revenue there is per mile...... Its been my opinion, and its no secret in this forum, that we need to push on to HSR..... which will provide America a state of the art system with much more frequency than what we have now for the same number of equipment..... Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:21 AM Try some comparisons with the Acela fares. They try to go head to head with airline fares in the markets from Washington to Boston. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:09 PM Maybe - but Amtrak is not competing with Europe but with US aircarriers, bus lines, and automobiles. Even at $2.50 per gallon, my marginal cost to drive is only about 13 cents a mile. That's what Amtrak is competing with. dd Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:07 PM Possibly. LC Reply Edit DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Amtrak fares too low? Posted by DSchmitt on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:04 PM I did comparisons of some passenger train fares in Europe with Amtrak fares. This is what I found: Europe (2nd class) Paris to Lyon: 244 mi, $104, 42 cents per mile Paris to Berlin: 546 mi, $142, 26 cents per mile Paris to Milan: 397 mi, $119, 30 cents per mile USA San Francisco to Los Angeles: 377 mi, $51, 14 cents per mile San Francisco (Emeryville) to Seattle: 786 approx mi $98, 12 cents per mile San Francisco to Salt Lake City: 730 mi, $74, 10 cents per mile Maybe Amtrak's fares are not high enough. I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 25, 2005 10:20 AM Sure you may have seen a few "young" persons but in general those on the train in my opinion are in a very large minority. [:o)][8D] Originally posted by Muddy Creek Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:09 AM In 1976, the Phila to NY fare was $5.25, $6.25 for the Metroliner. Gas costs about $0.60 then. Now, the Amtrak fare is $50, $93 for the Metroliner and gas costs about $2.40. Admittedly, the rail service is better now, but maybe Amtrak fares are too high. It may be that the game Amtrak is playing is maximizing the revenue given their equipment constraints. With bettter access to capital, Amtrak could buy or lease more coaches and lengthen trains for a small incremental cost and if the demand elasticity was right, make more than the incremental cost back in increased revenue. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 8:55 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman Well cut the Northeast Corridor from Amtrak and save 30 plus billion .... Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a substantial ridership on the Northeast Corridor? That sounds like telling the Postal Service to save money by cutting mail service to Northeast Cities. Wayne Reply Edit jockellis Member sinceMay 2002 From: Just outside Atlanta 422 posts Posted by jockellis on Sunday, April 24, 2005 8:54 PM I saw on PBS today that flying to Singapore costs 6.5ยข per mile. Tough to beat that. Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers Reply conrailman Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NS Main Line at MP12 Blairsville,Pa 830 posts Posted by conrailman on Sunday, April 24, 2005 6:34 PM Well cut the Northeast Corridor from Amtrak and save 30 plus billion amtrak operates 100 of own train to 1200 trains of other railroads in Northeast Corridor is Black Hole of Money Pit, Everything to Corridor not to the National System where it should Go for New Cars like Brand new order of 500 Superliners, 50 New Viewliners Diner Cars, Viewliners Lounge Cars 50 , 150 Viewliners Coaches, 50 Baggage Cars.[:D] Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:38 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Well A/trak has to compete against the jet plane. In my opinion most A/trak customers are elderly & afraid to fly. Interesting opinion. Fantasy, if my observations on the Adirondack are correct. Wayne Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:06 PM The question is if they raised fares just 50% how much would they lose due to loss of patronage? [:o)][:D] Originally posted by jeaton [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:56 PM In 1999 the subsidy for heavy rail in the USA was 64% Here are some current figures for trains in California: (Dollars in Millions) Pacific Surfliners Revenue $27.7 Expenses $48.3 Farebox Ratio 57.3% Subsidy 42.7% San Joaquins Revenue $22.7 Expences $50.9 Farebox Ratio 44.6% Subsidy 53.4% Capitol Corridor Revenue $16.4 Expenses $39.7 Farebox Ratio 41.3% Subsidy 58.7% The sudsidies for 2001 (the earlist figures I found) were 46.9%, 56.7% and 62.3% I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:44 PM dldance- Still even if those costs you say are a given still have to be payed for. Some people who take the train do not have to pay for all that. Nothing realy is a given. Owning a car and taking the train is a luxury. The best way to live..... exept for when comuting. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:35 PM dldance- ya ok, it works for you wich is an example. The real big difference between Europe and USA is not realy taxes or gas prices or competition, but population density, wich favors HSR in Europe and the way things are in USA favors the car. Not that there aren't more millions of cars in Europe then here. But even parts of USA the population is increasing and may catch up to Europe because Europe is not increasing very much. Even the western USA is becoming less western all the time. Even more so look at Japan. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:38 AM dldance- That's way high. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but It is more like the grant request for Operating Expense is around $700 million. I think that is something less than half than operating revenue, so a 50% increase would do the trick. BIG IF! That works only if you could keep all the business. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:11 AM I think the real issue is that Amtrak would need to raise fares about 300% to offset their purported operating losses. dd Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:31 AM 440 - Note I said marginal cost per mile. I have to have a car or truck so the registration, license, insurance, and maintenance are a given. I can either chose to drive cross country - which I often do (to the tune of 30 - 40,000 miles per year) or I can fly (which I do about every two weeks) or I can take Amtrak (which I have done once when I had the time). At the time of my Amtrak trip, I thought the fare was high for a sleeper - but I justified it by including the prices of meals and hotels in my comparison. I must say that Amtrak lived up to my best expectations with great service. I will do it again. dd Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:18 AM If I may I would like to give you a little analogy here between lets us say the turtle & the hare. I worked for Cunard line who operated the steamships Queen Mary & Queen Elizabeth. Besides being queens of the sea they were usually fully booked every week of the year that they sailed. Now the voyage took 5 days more/less. Now go back in time 48 years to the advent of the 707 & Trans Atlantic flight. In no time flat after the 707s started flying the queens were M/T & within 5 years withdrawn from service. I think that is a pretty good analogy of todays A/trak vs todays jets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:11 AM Well A/trak has to compete against the jet plane. In my opinion most A/trak customers are elderly & afraid to fly. As they go elsewhere all you will see is a continued dropoff of patronage except in the NEC. Here are some samples of airfares from where I live. FLL to LV $238.00 R/T via Delta FLL to Omaha $116.00 R/tT via SW FLL to Phila $120.00 R/T via US Air (last Dec) So besides cheap airline rates you get to your destination in hours & not days as with A/trak/[:o)][:D] Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:52 AM dldance- 13 cents a mile eh? Well if gas is twice as high in Europe that would be still only 26 cents. Still a bargan, of course you have to buy a car , register it, pay insurance, parking and maintance, for the real cost per mile, and still pay taxes too. Or at least rent one. Insurance in Europe is lower then in USA. They also have more fuel efficient cars to choose from to offset the price in gas for travel costs. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:35 AM One of the reasons European railways have developed HSR was that the old speeds of passenger trains were too slow to charge enough. You need busssiness travelers and for that you need speed for short travel times. A fast train can charge more per mile AND cover more miles, not as labour intensive but more technoligical. The European rails would be in a sorry state today if there was no HSR between the biggest populated centers and if they were still using the old method trains. Their rails would be loosing even more money and road and air traffic would be gridlock. It is a more densly populated place then USA. Most citizens in Europe are entiteled to discounts of various types and conditions, only bussiness and tourists pay full price. It is the price that bussiness men will pay that matters. Amtrak is too slow to charge these high prices. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:28 AM With businesses like this, you have to be careful and not gouge. Profit by volume is better than gouging just because of competition. However, there is a fine line between that and under-pricing. For the longer distance travel, it might be better to increase prices. To take the train from St.Catharines to Montreal is about $200 to $300 but ridership is still quite high. From St.Catharines to Toronto is about $25-$40. All depends on how much time you book the ticket. Andrew Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:14 AM Trains in Europe can get twice as much per fare as the price of gasoline is twice as high, if not more..... Amtrak fares reflect the price they can sell tickets at, which is a direct link to the prices of air travel and bus travel.....in America.....not Europe.... Of course, the taxes on gasoline in Europe is much higher, paying for their train service too.... which is not the case here in America..... The Europeans actually have a modern up to date train service, running several trains daily as opposed to the obsolete daily train service in much of America..... The key statistic is revenue miles..... The more frequency and the quicker the times the more revenue there is per mile...... Its been my opinion, and its no secret in this forum, that we need to push on to HSR..... which will provide America a state of the art system with much more frequency than what we have now for the same number of equipment..... Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:21 AM Try some comparisons with the Acela fares. They try to go head to head with airline fares in the markets from Washington to Boston. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:09 PM Maybe - but Amtrak is not competing with Europe but with US aircarriers, bus lines, and automobiles. Even at $2.50 per gallon, my marginal cost to drive is only about 13 cents a mile. That's what Amtrak is competing with. dd Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:07 PM Possibly. LC Reply Edit DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Amtrak fares too low? Posted by DSchmitt on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:04 PM I did comparisons of some passenger train fares in Europe with Amtrak fares. This is what I found: Europe (2nd class) Paris to Lyon: 244 mi, $104, 42 cents per mile Paris to Berlin: 546 mi, $142, 26 cents per mile Paris to Milan: 397 mi, $119, 30 cents per mile USA San Francisco to Los Angeles: 377 mi, $51, 14 cents per mile San Francisco (Emeryville) to Seattle: 786 approx mi $98, 12 cents per mile San Francisco to Salt Lake City: 730 mi, $74, 10 cents per mile Maybe Amtrak's fares are not high enough. I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Muddy Creek Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:09 AM In 1976, the Phila to NY fare was $5.25, $6.25 for the Metroliner. Gas costs about $0.60 then. Now, the Amtrak fare is $50, $93 for the Metroliner and gas costs about $2.40. Admittedly, the rail service is better now, but maybe Amtrak fares are too high. It may be that the game Amtrak is playing is maximizing the revenue given their equipment constraints. With bettter access to capital, Amtrak could buy or lease more coaches and lengthen trains for a small incremental cost and if the demand elasticity was right, make more than the incremental cost back in increased revenue. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 8:55 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman Well cut the Northeast Corridor from Amtrak and save 30 plus billion .... Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a substantial ridership on the Northeast Corridor? That sounds like telling the Postal Service to save money by cutting mail service to Northeast Cities. Wayne Reply Edit jockellis Member sinceMay 2002 From: Just outside Atlanta 422 posts Posted by jockellis on Sunday, April 24, 2005 8:54 PM I saw on PBS today that flying to Singapore costs 6.5ยข per mile. Tough to beat that. Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers Reply conrailman Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NS Main Line at MP12 Blairsville,Pa 830 posts Posted by conrailman on Sunday, April 24, 2005 6:34 PM Well cut the Northeast Corridor from Amtrak and save 30 plus billion amtrak operates 100 of own train to 1200 trains of other railroads in Northeast Corridor is Black Hole of Money Pit, Everything to Corridor not to the National System where it should Go for New Cars like Brand new order of 500 Superliners, 50 New Viewliners Diner Cars, Viewliners Lounge Cars 50 , 150 Viewliners Coaches, 50 Baggage Cars.[:D] Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:38 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Well A/trak has to compete against the jet plane. In my opinion most A/trak customers are elderly & afraid to fly. Interesting opinion. Fantasy, if my observations on the Adirondack are correct. Wayne Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:06 PM The question is if they raised fares just 50% how much would they lose due to loss of patronage? [:o)][:D] Originally posted by jeaton [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:56 PM In 1999 the subsidy for heavy rail in the USA was 64% Here are some current figures for trains in California: (Dollars in Millions) Pacific Surfliners Revenue $27.7 Expenses $48.3 Farebox Ratio 57.3% Subsidy 42.7% San Joaquins Revenue $22.7 Expences $50.9 Farebox Ratio 44.6% Subsidy 53.4% Capitol Corridor Revenue $16.4 Expenses $39.7 Farebox Ratio 41.3% Subsidy 58.7% The sudsidies for 2001 (the earlist figures I found) were 46.9%, 56.7% and 62.3% I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:44 PM dldance- Still even if those costs you say are a given still have to be payed for. Some people who take the train do not have to pay for all that. Nothing realy is a given. Owning a car and taking the train is a luxury. The best way to live..... exept for when comuting. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:35 PM dldance- ya ok, it works for you wich is an example. The real big difference between Europe and USA is not realy taxes or gas prices or competition, but population density, wich favors HSR in Europe and the way things are in USA favors the car. Not that there aren't more millions of cars in Europe then here. But even parts of USA the population is increasing and may catch up to Europe because Europe is not increasing very much. Even the western USA is becoming less western all the time. Even more so look at Japan. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:38 AM dldance- That's way high. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but It is more like the grant request for Operating Expense is around $700 million. I think that is something less than half than operating revenue, so a 50% increase would do the trick. BIG IF! That works only if you could keep all the business. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:11 AM I think the real issue is that Amtrak would need to raise fares about 300% to offset their purported operating losses. dd Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:31 AM 440 - Note I said marginal cost per mile. I have to have a car or truck so the registration, license, insurance, and maintenance are a given. I can either chose to drive cross country - which I often do (to the tune of 30 - 40,000 miles per year) or I can fly (which I do about every two weeks) or I can take Amtrak (which I have done once when I had the time). At the time of my Amtrak trip, I thought the fare was high for a sleeper - but I justified it by including the prices of meals and hotels in my comparison. I must say that Amtrak lived up to my best expectations with great service. I will do it again. dd Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:18 AM If I may I would like to give you a little analogy here between lets us say the turtle & the hare. I worked for Cunard line who operated the steamships Queen Mary & Queen Elizabeth. Besides being queens of the sea they were usually fully booked every week of the year that they sailed. Now the voyage took 5 days more/less. Now go back in time 48 years to the advent of the 707 & Trans Atlantic flight. In no time flat after the 707s started flying the queens were M/T & within 5 years withdrawn from service. I think that is a pretty good analogy of todays A/trak vs todays jets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:11 AM Well A/trak has to compete against the jet plane. In my opinion most A/trak customers are elderly & afraid to fly. As they go elsewhere all you will see is a continued dropoff of patronage except in the NEC. Here are some samples of airfares from where I live. FLL to LV $238.00 R/T via Delta FLL to Omaha $116.00 R/tT via SW FLL to Phila $120.00 R/T via US Air (last Dec) So besides cheap airline rates you get to your destination in hours & not days as with A/trak/[:o)][:D] Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:52 AM dldance- 13 cents a mile eh? Well if gas is twice as high in Europe that would be still only 26 cents. Still a bargan, of course you have to buy a car , register it, pay insurance, parking and maintance, for the real cost per mile, and still pay taxes too. Or at least rent one. Insurance in Europe is lower then in USA. They also have more fuel efficient cars to choose from to offset the price in gas for travel costs. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:35 AM One of the reasons European railways have developed HSR was that the old speeds of passenger trains were too slow to charge enough. You need busssiness travelers and for that you need speed for short travel times. A fast train can charge more per mile AND cover more miles, not as labour intensive but more technoligical. The European rails would be in a sorry state today if there was no HSR between the biggest populated centers and if they were still using the old method trains. Their rails would be loosing even more money and road and air traffic would be gridlock. It is a more densly populated place then USA. Most citizens in Europe are entiteled to discounts of various types and conditions, only bussiness and tourists pay full price. It is the price that bussiness men will pay that matters. Amtrak is too slow to charge these high prices. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:28 AM With businesses like this, you have to be careful and not gouge. Profit by volume is better than gouging just because of competition. However, there is a fine line between that and under-pricing. For the longer distance travel, it might be better to increase prices. To take the train from St.Catharines to Montreal is about $200 to $300 but ridership is still quite high. From St.Catharines to Toronto is about $25-$40. All depends on how much time you book the ticket. Andrew Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:14 AM Trains in Europe can get twice as much per fare as the price of gasoline is twice as high, if not more..... Amtrak fares reflect the price they can sell tickets at, which is a direct link to the prices of air travel and bus travel.....in America.....not Europe.... Of course, the taxes on gasoline in Europe is much higher, paying for their train service too.... which is not the case here in America..... The Europeans actually have a modern up to date train service, running several trains daily as opposed to the obsolete daily train service in much of America..... The key statistic is revenue miles..... The more frequency and the quicker the times the more revenue there is per mile...... Its been my opinion, and its no secret in this forum, that we need to push on to HSR..... which will provide America a state of the art system with much more frequency than what we have now for the same number of equipment..... Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:21 AM Try some comparisons with the Acela fares. They try to go head to head with airline fares in the markets from Washington to Boston. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:09 PM Maybe - but Amtrak is not competing with Europe but with US aircarriers, bus lines, and automobiles. Even at $2.50 per gallon, my marginal cost to drive is only about 13 cents a mile. That's what Amtrak is competing with. dd Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:07 PM Possibly. LC Reply Edit DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Amtrak fares too low? Posted by DSchmitt on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:04 PM I did comparisons of some passenger train fares in Europe with Amtrak fares. This is what I found: Europe (2nd class) Paris to Lyon: 244 mi, $104, 42 cents per mile Paris to Berlin: 546 mi, $142, 26 cents per mile Paris to Milan: 397 mi, $119, 30 cents per mile USA San Francisco to Los Angeles: 377 mi, $51, 14 cents per mile San Francisco (Emeryville) to Seattle: 786 approx mi $98, 12 cents per mile San Francisco to Salt Lake City: 730 mi, $74, 10 cents per mile Maybe Amtrak's fares are not high enough. I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:09 AM In 1976, the Phila to NY fare was $5.25, $6.25 for the Metroliner. Gas costs about $0.60 then. Now, the Amtrak fare is $50, $93 for the Metroliner and gas costs about $2.40. Admittedly, the rail service is better now, but maybe Amtrak fares are too high. It may be that the game Amtrak is playing is maximizing the revenue given their equipment constraints. With bettter access to capital, Amtrak could buy or lease more coaches and lengthen trains for a small incremental cost and if the demand elasticity was right, make more than the incremental cost back in increased revenue. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 8:55 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman Well cut the Northeast Corridor from Amtrak and save 30 plus billion .... Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a substantial ridership on the Northeast Corridor? That sounds like telling the Postal Service to save money by cutting mail service to Northeast Cities. Wayne Reply Edit jockellis Member sinceMay 2002 From: Just outside Atlanta 422 posts Posted by jockellis on Sunday, April 24, 2005 8:54 PM I saw on PBS today that flying to Singapore costs 6.5ยข per mile. Tough to beat that. Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers Reply conrailman Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NS Main Line at MP12 Blairsville,Pa 830 posts Posted by conrailman on Sunday, April 24, 2005 6:34 PM Well cut the Northeast Corridor from Amtrak and save 30 plus billion amtrak operates 100 of own train to 1200 trains of other railroads in Northeast Corridor is Black Hole of Money Pit, Everything to Corridor not to the National System where it should Go for New Cars like Brand new order of 500 Superliners, 50 New Viewliners Diner Cars, Viewliners Lounge Cars 50 , 150 Viewliners Coaches, 50 Baggage Cars.[:D] Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:38 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Well A/trak has to compete against the jet plane. In my opinion most A/trak customers are elderly & afraid to fly. Interesting opinion. Fantasy, if my observations on the Adirondack are correct. Wayne Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:06 PM The question is if they raised fares just 50% how much would they lose due to loss of patronage? [:o)][:D] Originally posted by jeaton [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:56 PM In 1999 the subsidy for heavy rail in the USA was 64% Here are some current figures for trains in California: (Dollars in Millions) Pacific Surfliners Revenue $27.7 Expenses $48.3 Farebox Ratio 57.3% Subsidy 42.7% San Joaquins Revenue $22.7 Expences $50.9 Farebox Ratio 44.6% Subsidy 53.4% Capitol Corridor Revenue $16.4 Expenses $39.7 Farebox Ratio 41.3% Subsidy 58.7% The sudsidies for 2001 (the earlist figures I found) were 46.9%, 56.7% and 62.3% I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:44 PM dldance- Still even if those costs you say are a given still have to be payed for. Some people who take the train do not have to pay for all that. Nothing realy is a given. Owning a car and taking the train is a luxury. The best way to live..... exept for when comuting. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:35 PM dldance- ya ok, it works for you wich is an example. The real big difference between Europe and USA is not realy taxes or gas prices or competition, but population density, wich favors HSR in Europe and the way things are in USA favors the car. Not that there aren't more millions of cars in Europe then here. But even parts of USA the population is increasing and may catch up to Europe because Europe is not increasing very much. Even the western USA is becoming less western all the time. Even more so look at Japan. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:38 AM dldance- That's way high. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but It is more like the grant request for Operating Expense is around $700 million. I think that is something less than half than operating revenue, so a 50% increase would do the trick. BIG IF! That works only if you could keep all the business. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:11 AM I think the real issue is that Amtrak would need to raise fares about 300% to offset their purported operating losses. dd Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:31 AM 440 - Note I said marginal cost per mile. I have to have a car or truck so the registration, license, insurance, and maintenance are a given. I can either chose to drive cross country - which I often do (to the tune of 30 - 40,000 miles per year) or I can fly (which I do about every two weeks) or I can take Amtrak (which I have done once when I had the time). At the time of my Amtrak trip, I thought the fare was high for a sleeper - but I justified it by including the prices of meals and hotels in my comparison. I must say that Amtrak lived up to my best expectations with great service. I will do it again. dd Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:18 AM If I may I would like to give you a little analogy here between lets us say the turtle & the hare. I worked for Cunard line who operated the steamships Queen Mary & Queen Elizabeth. Besides being queens of the sea they were usually fully booked every week of the year that they sailed. Now the voyage took 5 days more/less. Now go back in time 48 years to the advent of the 707 & Trans Atlantic flight. In no time flat after the 707s started flying the queens were M/T & within 5 years withdrawn from service. I think that is a pretty good analogy of todays A/trak vs todays jets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:11 AM Well A/trak has to compete against the jet plane. In my opinion most A/trak customers are elderly & afraid to fly. As they go elsewhere all you will see is a continued dropoff of patronage except in the NEC. Here are some samples of airfares from where I live. FLL to LV $238.00 R/T via Delta FLL to Omaha $116.00 R/tT via SW FLL to Phila $120.00 R/T via US Air (last Dec) So besides cheap airline rates you get to your destination in hours & not days as with A/trak/[:o)][:D] Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:52 AM dldance- 13 cents a mile eh? Well if gas is twice as high in Europe that would be still only 26 cents. Still a bargan, of course you have to buy a car , register it, pay insurance, parking and maintance, for the real cost per mile, and still pay taxes too. Or at least rent one. Insurance in Europe is lower then in USA. They also have more fuel efficient cars to choose from to offset the price in gas for travel costs. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:35 AM One of the reasons European railways have developed HSR was that the old speeds of passenger trains were too slow to charge enough. You need busssiness travelers and for that you need speed for short travel times. A fast train can charge more per mile AND cover more miles, not as labour intensive but more technoligical. The European rails would be in a sorry state today if there was no HSR between the biggest populated centers and if they were still using the old method trains. Their rails would be loosing even more money and road and air traffic would be gridlock. It is a more densly populated place then USA. Most citizens in Europe are entiteled to discounts of various types and conditions, only bussiness and tourists pay full price. It is the price that bussiness men will pay that matters. Amtrak is too slow to charge these high prices. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:28 AM With businesses like this, you have to be careful and not gouge. Profit by volume is better than gouging just because of competition. However, there is a fine line between that and under-pricing. For the longer distance travel, it might be better to increase prices. To take the train from St.Catharines to Montreal is about $200 to $300 but ridership is still quite high. From St.Catharines to Toronto is about $25-$40. All depends on how much time you book the ticket. Andrew Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:14 AM Trains in Europe can get twice as much per fare as the price of gasoline is twice as high, if not more..... Amtrak fares reflect the price they can sell tickets at, which is a direct link to the prices of air travel and bus travel.....in America.....not Europe.... Of course, the taxes on gasoline in Europe is much higher, paying for their train service too.... which is not the case here in America..... The Europeans actually have a modern up to date train service, running several trains daily as opposed to the obsolete daily train service in much of America..... The key statistic is revenue miles..... The more frequency and the quicker the times the more revenue there is per mile...... Its been my opinion, and its no secret in this forum, that we need to push on to HSR..... which will provide America a state of the art system with much more frequency than what we have now for the same number of equipment..... Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:21 AM Try some comparisons with the Acela fares. They try to go head to head with airline fares in the markets from Washington to Boston. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:09 PM Maybe - but Amtrak is not competing with Europe but with US aircarriers, bus lines, and automobiles. Even at $2.50 per gallon, my marginal cost to drive is only about 13 cents a mile. That's what Amtrak is competing with. dd Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:07 PM Possibly. LC Reply Edit DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Amtrak fares too low? Posted by DSchmitt on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:04 PM I did comparisons of some passenger train fares in Europe with Amtrak fares. This is what I found: Europe (2nd class) Paris to Lyon: 244 mi, $104, 42 cents per mile Paris to Berlin: 546 mi, $142, 26 cents per mile Paris to Milan: 397 mi, $119, 30 cents per mile USA San Francisco to Los Angeles: 377 mi, $51, 14 cents per mile San Francisco (Emeryville) to Seattle: 786 approx mi $98, 12 cents per mile San Francisco to Salt Lake City: 730 mi, $74, 10 cents per mile Maybe Amtrak's fares are not high enough. I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman Well cut the Northeast Corridor from Amtrak and save 30 plus billion ....
Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Well A/trak has to compete against the jet plane. In my opinion most A/trak customers are elderly & afraid to fly.
Originally posted by jeaton [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:56 PM In 1999 the subsidy for heavy rail in the USA was 64% Here are some current figures for trains in California: (Dollars in Millions) Pacific Surfliners Revenue $27.7 Expenses $48.3 Farebox Ratio 57.3% Subsidy 42.7% San Joaquins Revenue $22.7 Expences $50.9 Farebox Ratio 44.6% Subsidy 53.4% Capitol Corridor Revenue $16.4 Expenses $39.7 Farebox Ratio 41.3% Subsidy 58.7% The sudsidies for 2001 (the earlist figures I found) were 46.9%, 56.7% and 62.3% I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:44 PM dldance- Still even if those costs you say are a given still have to be payed for. Some people who take the train do not have to pay for all that. Nothing realy is a given. Owning a car and taking the train is a luxury. The best way to live..... exept for when comuting. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:35 PM dldance- ya ok, it works for you wich is an example. The real big difference between Europe and USA is not realy taxes or gas prices or competition, but population density, wich favors HSR in Europe and the way things are in USA favors the car. Not that there aren't more millions of cars in Europe then here. But even parts of USA the population is increasing and may catch up to Europe because Europe is not increasing very much. Even the western USA is becoming less western all the time. Even more so look at Japan. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:38 AM dldance- That's way high. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but It is more like the grant request for Operating Expense is around $700 million. I think that is something less than half than operating revenue, so a 50% increase would do the trick. BIG IF! That works only if you could keep all the business. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Saturday, April 23, 2005 11:11 AM I think the real issue is that Amtrak would need to raise fares about 300% to offset their purported operating losses. dd Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:31 AM 440 - Note I said marginal cost per mile. I have to have a car or truck so the registration, license, insurance, and maintenance are a given. I can either chose to drive cross country - which I often do (to the tune of 30 - 40,000 miles per year) or I can fly (which I do about every two weeks) or I can take Amtrak (which I have done once when I had the time). At the time of my Amtrak trip, I thought the fare was high for a sleeper - but I justified it by including the prices of meals and hotels in my comparison. I must say that Amtrak lived up to my best expectations with great service. I will do it again. dd Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:18 AM If I may I would like to give you a little analogy here between lets us say the turtle & the hare. I worked for Cunard line who operated the steamships Queen Mary & Queen Elizabeth. Besides being queens of the sea they were usually fully booked every week of the year that they sailed. Now the voyage took 5 days more/less. Now go back in time 48 years to the advent of the 707 & Trans Atlantic flight. In no time flat after the 707s started flying the queens were M/T & within 5 years withdrawn from service. I think that is a pretty good analogy of todays A/trak vs todays jets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:11 AM Well A/trak has to compete against the jet plane. In my opinion most A/trak customers are elderly & afraid to fly. As they go elsewhere all you will see is a continued dropoff of patronage except in the NEC. Here are some samples of airfares from where I live. FLL to LV $238.00 R/T via Delta FLL to Omaha $116.00 R/tT via SW FLL to Phila $120.00 R/T via US Air (last Dec) So besides cheap airline rates you get to your destination in hours & not days as with A/trak/[:o)][:D] Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:52 AM dldance- 13 cents a mile eh? Well if gas is twice as high in Europe that would be still only 26 cents. Still a bargan, of course you have to buy a car , register it, pay insurance, parking and maintance, for the real cost per mile, and still pay taxes too. Or at least rent one. Insurance in Europe is lower then in USA. They also have more fuel efficient cars to choose from to offset the price in gas for travel costs. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:35 AM One of the reasons European railways have developed HSR was that the old speeds of passenger trains were too slow to charge enough. You need busssiness travelers and for that you need speed for short travel times. A fast train can charge more per mile AND cover more miles, not as labour intensive but more technoligical. The European rails would be in a sorry state today if there was no HSR between the biggest populated centers and if they were still using the old method trains. Their rails would be loosing even more money and road and air traffic would be gridlock. It is a more densly populated place then USA. Most citizens in Europe are entiteled to discounts of various types and conditions, only bussiness and tourists pay full price. It is the price that bussiness men will pay that matters. Amtrak is too slow to charge these high prices. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:28 AM With businesses like this, you have to be careful and not gouge. Profit by volume is better than gouging just because of competition. However, there is a fine line between that and under-pricing. For the longer distance travel, it might be better to increase prices. To take the train from St.Catharines to Montreal is about $200 to $300 but ridership is still quite high. From St.Catharines to Toronto is about $25-$40. All depends on how much time you book the ticket. Andrew Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:14 AM Trains in Europe can get twice as much per fare as the price of gasoline is twice as high, if not more..... Amtrak fares reflect the price they can sell tickets at, which is a direct link to the prices of air travel and bus travel.....in America.....not Europe.... Of course, the taxes on gasoline in Europe is much higher, paying for their train service too.... which is not the case here in America..... The Europeans actually have a modern up to date train service, running several trains daily as opposed to the obsolete daily train service in much of America..... The key statistic is revenue miles..... The more frequency and the quicker the times the more revenue there is per mile...... Its been my opinion, and its no secret in this forum, that we need to push on to HSR..... which will provide America a state of the art system with much more frequency than what we have now for the same number of equipment..... Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:21 AM Try some comparisons with the Acela fares. They try to go head to head with airline fares in the markets from Washington to Boston. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:09 PM Maybe - but Amtrak is not competing with Europe but with US aircarriers, bus lines, and automobiles. Even at $2.50 per gallon, my marginal cost to drive is only about 13 cents a mile. That's what Amtrak is competing with. dd Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:07 PM Possibly. LC Reply Edit DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Amtrak fares too low? Posted by DSchmitt on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:04 PM I did comparisons of some passenger train fares in Europe with Amtrak fares. This is what I found: Europe (2nd class) Paris to Lyon: 244 mi, $104, 42 cents per mile Paris to Berlin: 546 mi, $142, 26 cents per mile Paris to Milan: 397 mi, $119, 30 cents per mile USA San Francisco to Los Angeles: 377 mi, $51, 14 cents per mile San Francisco (Emeryville) to Seattle: 786 approx mi $98, 12 cents per mile San Francisco to Salt Lake City: 730 mi, $74, 10 cents per mile Maybe Amtrak's fares are not high enough. I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:11 AM Well A/trak has to compete against the jet plane. In my opinion most A/trak customers are elderly & afraid to fly. As they go elsewhere all you will see is a continued dropoff of patronage except in the NEC. Here are some samples of airfares from where I live. FLL to LV $238.00 R/T via Delta FLL to Omaha $116.00 R/tT via SW FLL to Phila $120.00 R/T via US Air (last Dec) So besides cheap airline rates you get to your destination in hours & not days as with A/trak/[:o)][:D] Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:52 AM dldance- 13 cents a mile eh? Well if gas is twice as high in Europe that would be still only 26 cents. Still a bargan, of course you have to buy a car , register it, pay insurance, parking and maintance, for the real cost per mile, and still pay taxes too. Or at least rent one. Insurance in Europe is lower then in USA. They also have more fuel efficient cars to choose from to offset the price in gas for travel costs. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:35 AM One of the reasons European railways have developed HSR was that the old speeds of passenger trains were too slow to charge enough. You need busssiness travelers and for that you need speed for short travel times. A fast train can charge more per mile AND cover more miles, not as labour intensive but more technoligical. The European rails would be in a sorry state today if there was no HSR between the biggest populated centers and if they were still using the old method trains. Their rails would be loosing even more money and road and air traffic would be gridlock. It is a more densly populated place then USA. Most citizens in Europe are entiteled to discounts of various types and conditions, only bussiness and tourists pay full price. It is the price that bussiness men will pay that matters. Amtrak is too slow to charge these high prices. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:28 AM With businesses like this, you have to be careful and not gouge. Profit by volume is better than gouging just because of competition. However, there is a fine line between that and under-pricing. For the longer distance travel, it might be better to increase prices. To take the train from St.Catharines to Montreal is about $200 to $300 but ridership is still quite high. From St.Catharines to Toronto is about $25-$40. All depends on how much time you book the ticket. Andrew Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:14 AM Trains in Europe can get twice as much per fare as the price of gasoline is twice as high, if not more..... Amtrak fares reflect the price they can sell tickets at, which is a direct link to the prices of air travel and bus travel.....in America.....not Europe.... Of course, the taxes on gasoline in Europe is much higher, paying for their train service too.... which is not the case here in America..... The Europeans actually have a modern up to date train service, running several trains daily as opposed to the obsolete daily train service in much of America..... The key statistic is revenue miles..... The more frequency and the quicker the times the more revenue there is per mile...... Its been my opinion, and its no secret in this forum, that we need to push on to HSR..... which will provide America a state of the art system with much more frequency than what we have now for the same number of equipment..... Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:21 AM Try some comparisons with the Acela fares. They try to go head to head with airline fares in the markets from Washington to Boston. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:09 PM Maybe - but Amtrak is not competing with Europe but with US aircarriers, bus lines, and automobiles. Even at $2.50 per gallon, my marginal cost to drive is only about 13 cents a mile. That's what Amtrak is competing with. dd Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:07 PM Possibly. LC Reply Edit DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Amtrak fares too low? Posted by DSchmitt on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:04 PM I did comparisons of some passenger train fares in Europe with Amtrak fares. This is what I found: Europe (2nd class) Paris to Lyon: 244 mi, $104, 42 cents per mile Paris to Berlin: 546 mi, $142, 26 cents per mile Paris to Milan: 397 mi, $119, 30 cents per mile USA San Francisco to Los Angeles: 377 mi, $51, 14 cents per mile San Francisco (Emeryville) to Seattle: 786 approx mi $98, 12 cents per mile San Francisco to Salt Lake City: 730 mi, $74, 10 cents per mile Maybe Amtrak's fares are not high enough. I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by DSchmitt Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:52 AM dldance- 13 cents a mile eh? Well if gas is twice as high in Europe that would be still only 26 cents. Still a bargan, of course you have to buy a car , register it, pay insurance, parking and maintance, for the real cost per mile, and still pay taxes too. Or at least rent one. Insurance in Europe is lower then in USA. They also have more fuel efficient cars to choose from to offset the price in gas for travel costs. Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:35 AM One of the reasons European railways have developed HSR was that the old speeds of passenger trains were too slow to charge enough. You need busssiness travelers and for that you need speed for short travel times. A fast train can charge more per mile AND cover more miles, not as labour intensive but more technoligical. The European rails would be in a sorry state today if there was no HSR between the biggest populated centers and if they were still using the old method trains. Their rails would be loosing even more money and road and air traffic would be gridlock. It is a more densly populated place then USA. Most citizens in Europe are entiteled to discounts of various types and conditions, only bussiness and tourists pay full price. It is the price that bussiness men will pay that matters. Amtrak is too slow to charge these high prices. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:28 AM With businesses like this, you have to be careful and not gouge. Profit by volume is better than gouging just because of competition. However, there is a fine line between that and under-pricing. For the longer distance travel, it might be better to increase prices. To take the train from St.Catharines to Montreal is about $200 to $300 but ridership is still quite high. From St.Catharines to Toronto is about $25-$40. All depends on how much time you book the ticket. Andrew Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:14 AM Trains in Europe can get twice as much per fare as the price of gasoline is twice as high, if not more..... Amtrak fares reflect the price they can sell tickets at, which is a direct link to the prices of air travel and bus travel.....in America.....not Europe.... Of course, the taxes on gasoline in Europe is much higher, paying for their train service too.... which is not the case here in America..... The Europeans actually have a modern up to date train service, running several trains daily as opposed to the obsolete daily train service in much of America..... The key statistic is revenue miles..... The more frequency and the quicker the times the more revenue there is per mile...... Its been my opinion, and its no secret in this forum, that we need to push on to HSR..... which will provide America a state of the art system with much more frequency than what we have now for the same number of equipment..... Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:21 AM Try some comparisons with the Acela fares. They try to go head to head with airline fares in the markets from Washington to Boston. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:09 PM Maybe - but Amtrak is not competing with Europe but with US aircarriers, bus lines, and automobiles. Even at $2.50 per gallon, my marginal cost to drive is only about 13 cents a mile. That's what Amtrak is competing with. dd Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:07 PM Possibly. LC Reply Edit DSchmitt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018 4,422 posts Amtrak fares too low? Posted by DSchmitt on Friday, April 22, 2005 11:04 PM I did comparisons of some passenger train fares in Europe with Amtrak fares. This is what I found: Europe (2nd class) Paris to Lyon: 244 mi, $104, 42 cents per mile Paris to Berlin: 546 mi, $142, 26 cents per mile Paris to Milan: 397 mi, $119, 30 cents per mile USA San Francisco to Los Angeles: 377 mi, $51, 14 cents per mile San Francisco (Emeryville) to Seattle: 786 approx mi $98, 12 cents per mile San Francisco to Salt Lake City: 730 mi, $74, 10 cents per mile Maybe Amtrak's fares are not high enough. I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it. I don't have a leg to stand on. Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.