Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
Originally posted by erikthered [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 15, 2005 8:30 AM I'm sure they purchased the ad long term not thinking the brakes may crack. Originally posted by mucable [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 8:32 AM Last month TRAINS talked about the availability rate of the locomotives on ACELA service. Seemed to be awfully low to me. For the old heads out there who have actually worked with mechanical and design engineers introducing (or demonstrating) new equipment, and who do not work with AMTRAK, how do you think your railroad would react to this kind of teething problem? Erik Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Friday, April 15, 2005 8:35 AM mucable and others. The Amtrak press release on their web site shows a time of 3:00am, this morning. Figure someone notes the condition during the evening inspection and maintenance operation, evaluation and decision making process takes a few hours and then the word goes forth. No doubt tough call, but it indicates very functional management. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, April 15, 2005 9:00 AM ....And they are talking about the passenger cars so if certain parts must be replaced or at worse redesigned.... We're talking about a massive numbers of parts, this will be an expensive repair and or redesign. [:0] Where will the money come from....and from what I read Acela is 20% of traffic in that area...A bunch. Bush adminstration has nixed any amount of money for Amtrak so we'll see....how it will or maybe won't be resolved. And this is the beloved NEC. Quentin Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, April 15, 2005 9:23 AM What kind of life expectancy is that component supposed to have? I don't recall any ot the other railroads in Europe and beyond having any other problems with their equipment in that area or is it a common occurance? Andrew Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Friday, April 15, 2005 9:42 AM I guess my question, the answer to which is apparently to be determined, is whether or not this is a design/manufacturing flaw or a maintenance issue. I'm sure both Amtrak and Bombardier want to get to the bottom of that one too. So unfortunate for Amtrak though as Mineta is probably have a field day with this! Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 9:55 AM I find it interesting we run frieghts with thousands of cars and nary a word about brake problems. Here we have a finely engineered train that is apparently not strong enough to withstand the rigors of high speed service. I would speculate that this problem will wipe out the current shop budget for this year. What now? Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 15, 2005 10:15 AM If GWB knows I am sure it will harden his anti A/trak position [:(] Originally posted by HighIron2003ar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, April 15, 2005 10:16 AM ....These parts of Acela must be of specific new design as were the brackets supporting the shock absorbers on the engines a year or so ago....They had cracks develope in those pieces and believe a redesign was necessary. The brake parts might be a similar problem. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 12:35 PM Don't worry -- the administration in Washington will use our dollars to pay for everything. The Acela is the one train all the NEC politicians ride to get to the trough in DC. If they can't get there on regular Amtrak, W will give up our money for the repairs. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 1:08 PM The unions are making this up to get leverage on there contracts Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 15, 2005 1:15 PM Your post made me chuckle & what is there to say but you are RIGHT! [:p][:o)][:)] Originally posted by Jack P Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply mucable Member sinceDecember 2001 47 posts Posted by mucable on Friday, April 15, 2005 1:40 PM God forbid those politicians should have to ride the lowly Metroliner! i think they should all be forced to ride the old mu's. Now there's a mode of travel that's not politically correct!!! Reply jchnhtfd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 1,537 posts Posted by jchnhtfd on Friday, April 15, 2005 2:17 PM If it cheers anyone up any... this sort of thing happens to airplanes, too, when they first go into service. Only no one hears about it... Jamie Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Friday, April 15, 2005 2:40 PM For that matter it also happens to European High Speed trains too. Unless you read the Swedish news you won't hear about the X2000 being taken out of servive due to cracks, wich has happened. Reply martin.knoepfel Member sinceDecember 2003 400 posts Posted by martin.knoepfel on Friday, April 15, 2005 3:27 PM The Germans had similar problems with a diesel-tilt-train, which is not high-speed. First, all trains were restricted in curve-speed, i.e. slowed-down to non-tilting-standards. then, they were sidelined until repair was done. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 16, 2005 7:15 AM According to the AP news story today, the cracks are in the steel spokes of the disc brake rotors. Repair time could be weeks to as long as a couple of months. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 16, 2005 8:09 AM The papers this AM said the cracks are a millimeter long Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 16, 2005 10:49 PM If I remember correctly Amtrak brought over 3 or 4 different exisiting high-speed train sets from europe a few years ago when they were gearing up to start the service in the US. They made a big show of it. I went to see one when it came to DC Union Station. One car was set up to tilt and you could walk through the rest of the train. I think it was one of the German ICE trains. In Japan they have had this type of train since the 1960's and europe since the 70's. The powers that be are so bass ackwards they decided that it would be a good idea to reject all of these proven designs and start from scratch. So they started from the begining and built all new unproven designs. Then while they wasted time doing this they upgraded and wired much of the track in the NEC. When the new train set was done and ready to test at the test ground in Colorado. They found all kinds of problems like uneven wheel wear. Each time they found a problem they slapped a redesign bandage or a restriction on it. These trains were flawed from the begining. Amtrak was just being forced to build it here for job and political reasons although the trains these high speed ones would replace were headed by the most powerful engines owned by Amtrak, those slabsided Swedi***oasters. Those weren't made or designed in the US. So there is a precident for going outside and in this case they should have. It would have saved money, time and greif. After many restrictions and too much time passed at the Colorado test grounds and in rebuild / redesigns they finally brought the trains to the NEC to test. They found that the tilt mechanisim made the cars overhang onto parallel tracks. So unless they wanted to temp fate the trains most high tech expensive feature is moot. Now it is just extra weight keeping the car on the track and much money lost. OOPS. Come on, was nobody thinking about this. Good thing this isn't rocket science. There is only on section in Rhode Island where the train can reach full speed anyway. There were trains in the steam era that were able to keep close shedule to this service and that was over 50 years ago. This whole thing is sad and it is just another excuse to pull the plug on Amtrak. In California we have close to $3.00 gas now. It will be $5 and then $10 soon. Train travel is looking better and better. Too bad it will all be gone when we all break down and want to use it again. It is probably easier to keep track of the citizens if they stay in one place anyhow. After September 11 all the jet planes were forbidden to fly and one of the open alternatives was the train. If (or I maybe should say when) this type of thing happens again it may be that one more option is closed. Amtrak was set up to fail in this venture and it is really a crime. The timing could not have been better planned. The supposed flagship and savior of american rail travel is shown to have serious flaws at a time when they are questioning continuing the service. This area the train travels in is the most profitable one for passenger service. It is the only area that people travel on it with a fequency like that of the "good old days". This one area of strength was promised a silver bullet and given a mylar band-aid. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 17, 2005 1:05 AM Hmph. Would you rather have Amcrack run the acelas anyways while they tried to crack the problems of fixing small issues in the brakes? Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 17, 2005 7:40 AM CNN says no service until at least Wednesday Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:21 AM ...Where are the engineering capibilities like those who put men on the moon when applied to engineering new products for land based transportation...Surely we can do better. But then there seem to be too many around who really don't want rail transportation to succeed in this country. Why....That's a mystery to me and has been for years. Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:24 AM That is a great question you can that also why we cannot engineer ourselves into self sufficency on oil. QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Where are the engineering capibilities like those who put men on the moon when applied to enineering new products for land based transportation...Surely we can do better. But then there seem to be too many around who really don't want rail transportation to succeed in this country. Why....That's a mystery to me and has been for years. Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Paul Milenkovic Member sinceJuly 2004 2,741 posts Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:32 PM The Acela indeed uses the same engineering talent that put a man on the Moon -- Canadian! The story goes that the Canadians were building a high Mach-number interceptor called the Avro Arrow, they pulled the plug on that project, and the engineers all went South of the Border to design the Apollo Command module. The problem is in fact that the Acela is approached just like landing a man on the Moon -- an expensive, custom, one-of design, and if it breaks, you radio instructions on how to rig the air purifier with duct tape, and one of the astronauts lands with a urinary infection (I am told nothing can make you sicker than one of those) because he thought he had to hold it to conserve power on the urinal heater to make it back instead of burn up on reentry (lets compare Apollo 13 with the worst Amtrak travel horror story). Rail transportation is not suceeding, but is space transportation in such great shape (all of the travails with Shuttle)? Before we get into conspiracy theories for either of those modes of transportation, lets look at fundamentals. What does the Acela really do that the Metroliners (years since they were MU cars, and the original MU cars were car-barn queens) cannot do? I guess a Metroliner (AEM-7 pulling Amfleet cars) takes 3 hours and the Acela (pair of Alsthom power cars pulling/pushing reworked LRC cars) takes 2 hours 45 minutes. Funny thing, both trains have in excess of 100 MPH running, but you are talking about 70 MPH vs 78 MPH average speed. Instead of getting the Acela trains sets, could Amtrak have looked at the causes of slow running and spent the money on that, or are the approach routes to NY, Philly, etc so restricted by route decisions made two centuries ago that you can't get those trains to run a little quicker over the slow sections? Part of the cachet of Acela is the interiors wired for laptop computers -- could they have run some Amfleet cars through Beech Grove to do the same thing? The story is that for the original Northeast Corridor "demonstration", the DOT tested a set of up-geared Budd Silverliner MU cars and set a speed record of 160 MPH with them, but when the Metroliner MU's were built, they came up with a new design that needed much more horsepower because they wanted it to accelerate quicker, and the HP added weight which need yet more HP, and they came up with these heavy, rough riding MU cars which kept breaking down from electrical problems -- they were never fixed, instead, the AEM-7 electric locomotive saved the say. If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks? Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Originally posted by mucable [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 8:32 AM Last month TRAINS talked about the availability rate of the locomotives on ACELA service. Seemed to be awfully low to me. For the old heads out there who have actually worked with mechanical and design engineers introducing (or demonstrating) new equipment, and who do not work with AMTRAK, how do you think your railroad would react to this kind of teething problem? Erik Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Friday, April 15, 2005 8:35 AM mucable and others. The Amtrak press release on their web site shows a time of 3:00am, this morning. Figure someone notes the condition during the evening inspection and maintenance operation, evaluation and decision making process takes a few hours and then the word goes forth. No doubt tough call, but it indicates very functional management. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, April 15, 2005 9:00 AM ....And they are talking about the passenger cars so if certain parts must be replaced or at worse redesigned.... We're talking about a massive numbers of parts, this will be an expensive repair and or redesign. [:0] Where will the money come from....and from what I read Acela is 20% of traffic in that area...A bunch. Bush adminstration has nixed any amount of money for Amtrak so we'll see....how it will or maybe won't be resolved. And this is the beloved NEC. Quentin Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, April 15, 2005 9:23 AM What kind of life expectancy is that component supposed to have? I don't recall any ot the other railroads in Europe and beyond having any other problems with their equipment in that area or is it a common occurance? Andrew Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Friday, April 15, 2005 9:42 AM I guess my question, the answer to which is apparently to be determined, is whether or not this is a design/manufacturing flaw or a maintenance issue. I'm sure both Amtrak and Bombardier want to get to the bottom of that one too. So unfortunate for Amtrak though as Mineta is probably have a field day with this! Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 9:55 AM I find it interesting we run frieghts with thousands of cars and nary a word about brake problems. Here we have a finely engineered train that is apparently not strong enough to withstand the rigors of high speed service. I would speculate that this problem will wipe out the current shop budget for this year. What now? Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 15, 2005 10:15 AM If GWB knows I am sure it will harden his anti A/trak position [:(] Originally posted by HighIron2003ar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, April 15, 2005 10:16 AM ....These parts of Acela must be of specific new design as were the brackets supporting the shock absorbers on the engines a year or so ago....They had cracks develope in those pieces and believe a redesign was necessary. The brake parts might be a similar problem. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 12:35 PM Don't worry -- the administration in Washington will use our dollars to pay for everything. The Acela is the one train all the NEC politicians ride to get to the trough in DC. If they can't get there on regular Amtrak, W will give up our money for the repairs. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 1:08 PM The unions are making this up to get leverage on there contracts Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 15, 2005 1:15 PM Your post made me chuckle & what is there to say but you are RIGHT! [:p][:o)][:)] Originally posted by Jack P Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply mucable Member sinceDecember 2001 47 posts Posted by mucable on Friday, April 15, 2005 1:40 PM God forbid those politicians should have to ride the lowly Metroliner! i think they should all be forced to ride the old mu's. Now there's a mode of travel that's not politically correct!!! Reply jchnhtfd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 1,537 posts Posted by jchnhtfd on Friday, April 15, 2005 2:17 PM If it cheers anyone up any... this sort of thing happens to airplanes, too, when they first go into service. Only no one hears about it... Jamie Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Friday, April 15, 2005 2:40 PM For that matter it also happens to European High Speed trains too. Unless you read the Swedish news you won't hear about the X2000 being taken out of servive due to cracks, wich has happened. Reply martin.knoepfel Member sinceDecember 2003 400 posts Posted by martin.knoepfel on Friday, April 15, 2005 3:27 PM The Germans had similar problems with a diesel-tilt-train, which is not high-speed. First, all trains were restricted in curve-speed, i.e. slowed-down to non-tilting-standards. then, they were sidelined until repair was done. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 16, 2005 7:15 AM According to the AP news story today, the cracks are in the steel spokes of the disc brake rotors. Repair time could be weeks to as long as a couple of months. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 16, 2005 8:09 AM The papers this AM said the cracks are a millimeter long Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 16, 2005 10:49 PM If I remember correctly Amtrak brought over 3 or 4 different exisiting high-speed train sets from europe a few years ago when they were gearing up to start the service in the US. They made a big show of it. I went to see one when it came to DC Union Station. One car was set up to tilt and you could walk through the rest of the train. I think it was one of the German ICE trains. In Japan they have had this type of train since the 1960's and europe since the 70's. The powers that be are so bass ackwards they decided that it would be a good idea to reject all of these proven designs and start from scratch. So they started from the begining and built all new unproven designs. Then while they wasted time doing this they upgraded and wired much of the track in the NEC. When the new train set was done and ready to test at the test ground in Colorado. They found all kinds of problems like uneven wheel wear. Each time they found a problem they slapped a redesign bandage or a restriction on it. These trains were flawed from the begining. Amtrak was just being forced to build it here for job and political reasons although the trains these high speed ones would replace were headed by the most powerful engines owned by Amtrak, those slabsided Swedi***oasters. Those weren't made or designed in the US. So there is a precident for going outside and in this case they should have. It would have saved money, time and greif. After many restrictions and too much time passed at the Colorado test grounds and in rebuild / redesigns they finally brought the trains to the NEC to test. They found that the tilt mechanisim made the cars overhang onto parallel tracks. So unless they wanted to temp fate the trains most high tech expensive feature is moot. Now it is just extra weight keeping the car on the track and much money lost. OOPS. Come on, was nobody thinking about this. Good thing this isn't rocket science. There is only on section in Rhode Island where the train can reach full speed anyway. There were trains in the steam era that were able to keep close shedule to this service and that was over 50 years ago. This whole thing is sad and it is just another excuse to pull the plug on Amtrak. In California we have close to $3.00 gas now. It will be $5 and then $10 soon. Train travel is looking better and better. Too bad it will all be gone when we all break down and want to use it again. It is probably easier to keep track of the citizens if they stay in one place anyhow. After September 11 all the jet planes were forbidden to fly and one of the open alternatives was the train. If (or I maybe should say when) this type of thing happens again it may be that one more option is closed. Amtrak was set up to fail in this venture and it is really a crime. The timing could not have been better planned. The supposed flagship and savior of american rail travel is shown to have serious flaws at a time when they are questioning continuing the service. This area the train travels in is the most profitable one for passenger service. It is the only area that people travel on it with a fequency like that of the "good old days". This one area of strength was promised a silver bullet and given a mylar band-aid. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 17, 2005 1:05 AM Hmph. Would you rather have Amcrack run the acelas anyways while they tried to crack the problems of fixing small issues in the brakes? Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 17, 2005 7:40 AM CNN says no service until at least Wednesday Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:21 AM ...Where are the engineering capibilities like those who put men on the moon when applied to engineering new products for land based transportation...Surely we can do better. But then there seem to be too many around who really don't want rail transportation to succeed in this country. Why....That's a mystery to me and has been for years. Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:24 AM That is a great question you can that also why we cannot engineer ourselves into self sufficency on oil. QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Where are the engineering capibilities like those who put men on the moon when applied to enineering new products for land based transportation...Surely we can do better. But then there seem to be too many around who really don't want rail transportation to succeed in this country. Why....That's a mystery to me and has been for years. Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Paul Milenkovic Member sinceJuly 2004 2,741 posts Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:32 PM The Acela indeed uses the same engineering talent that put a man on the Moon -- Canadian! The story goes that the Canadians were building a high Mach-number interceptor called the Avro Arrow, they pulled the plug on that project, and the engineers all went South of the Border to design the Apollo Command module. The problem is in fact that the Acela is approached just like landing a man on the Moon -- an expensive, custom, one-of design, and if it breaks, you radio instructions on how to rig the air purifier with duct tape, and one of the astronauts lands with a urinary infection (I am told nothing can make you sicker than one of those) because he thought he had to hold it to conserve power on the urinal heater to make it back instead of burn up on reentry (lets compare Apollo 13 with the worst Amtrak travel horror story). Rail transportation is not suceeding, but is space transportation in such great shape (all of the travails with Shuttle)? Before we get into conspiracy theories for either of those modes of transportation, lets look at fundamentals. What does the Acela really do that the Metroliners (years since they were MU cars, and the original MU cars were car-barn queens) cannot do? I guess a Metroliner (AEM-7 pulling Amfleet cars) takes 3 hours and the Acela (pair of Alsthom power cars pulling/pushing reworked LRC cars) takes 2 hours 45 minutes. Funny thing, both trains have in excess of 100 MPH running, but you are talking about 70 MPH vs 78 MPH average speed. Instead of getting the Acela trains sets, could Amtrak have looked at the causes of slow running and spent the money on that, or are the approach routes to NY, Philly, etc so restricted by route decisions made two centuries ago that you can't get those trains to run a little quicker over the slow sections? Part of the cachet of Acela is the interiors wired for laptop computers -- could they have run some Amfleet cars through Beech Grove to do the same thing? The story is that for the original Northeast Corridor "demonstration", the DOT tested a set of up-geared Budd Silverliner MU cars and set a speed record of 160 MPH with them, but when the Metroliner MU's were built, they came up with a new design that needed much more horsepower because they wanted it to accelerate quicker, and the HP added weight which need yet more HP, and they came up with these heavy, rough riding MU cars which kept breaking down from electrical problems -- they were never fixed, instead, the AEM-7 electric locomotive saved the say. If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks? Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Quentin
Originally posted by HighIron2003ar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, April 15, 2005 10:16 AM ....These parts of Acela must be of specific new design as were the brackets supporting the shock absorbers on the engines a year or so ago....They had cracks develope in those pieces and believe a redesign was necessary. The brake parts might be a similar problem. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 12:35 PM Don't worry -- the administration in Washington will use our dollars to pay for everything. The Acela is the one train all the NEC politicians ride to get to the trough in DC. If they can't get there on regular Amtrak, W will give up our money for the repairs. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 1:08 PM The unions are making this up to get leverage on there contracts Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 15, 2005 1:15 PM Your post made me chuckle & what is there to say but you are RIGHT! [:p][:o)][:)] Originally posted by Jack P Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply mucable Member sinceDecember 2001 47 posts Posted by mucable on Friday, April 15, 2005 1:40 PM God forbid those politicians should have to ride the lowly Metroliner! i think they should all be forced to ride the old mu's. Now there's a mode of travel that's not politically correct!!! Reply jchnhtfd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 1,537 posts Posted by jchnhtfd on Friday, April 15, 2005 2:17 PM If it cheers anyone up any... this sort of thing happens to airplanes, too, when they first go into service. Only no one hears about it... Jamie Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Friday, April 15, 2005 2:40 PM For that matter it also happens to European High Speed trains too. Unless you read the Swedish news you won't hear about the X2000 being taken out of servive due to cracks, wich has happened. Reply martin.knoepfel Member sinceDecember 2003 400 posts Posted by martin.knoepfel on Friday, April 15, 2005 3:27 PM The Germans had similar problems with a diesel-tilt-train, which is not high-speed. First, all trains were restricted in curve-speed, i.e. slowed-down to non-tilting-standards. then, they were sidelined until repair was done. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 16, 2005 7:15 AM According to the AP news story today, the cracks are in the steel spokes of the disc brake rotors. Repair time could be weeks to as long as a couple of months. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 16, 2005 8:09 AM The papers this AM said the cracks are a millimeter long Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 16, 2005 10:49 PM If I remember correctly Amtrak brought over 3 or 4 different exisiting high-speed train sets from europe a few years ago when they were gearing up to start the service in the US. They made a big show of it. I went to see one when it came to DC Union Station. One car was set up to tilt and you could walk through the rest of the train. I think it was one of the German ICE trains. In Japan they have had this type of train since the 1960's and europe since the 70's. The powers that be are so bass ackwards they decided that it would be a good idea to reject all of these proven designs and start from scratch. So they started from the begining and built all new unproven designs. Then while they wasted time doing this they upgraded and wired much of the track in the NEC. When the new train set was done and ready to test at the test ground in Colorado. They found all kinds of problems like uneven wheel wear. Each time they found a problem they slapped a redesign bandage or a restriction on it. These trains were flawed from the begining. Amtrak was just being forced to build it here for job and political reasons although the trains these high speed ones would replace were headed by the most powerful engines owned by Amtrak, those slabsided Swedi***oasters. Those weren't made or designed in the US. So there is a precident for going outside and in this case they should have. It would have saved money, time and greif. After many restrictions and too much time passed at the Colorado test grounds and in rebuild / redesigns they finally brought the trains to the NEC to test. They found that the tilt mechanisim made the cars overhang onto parallel tracks. So unless they wanted to temp fate the trains most high tech expensive feature is moot. Now it is just extra weight keeping the car on the track and much money lost. OOPS. Come on, was nobody thinking about this. Good thing this isn't rocket science. There is only on section in Rhode Island where the train can reach full speed anyway. There were trains in the steam era that were able to keep close shedule to this service and that was over 50 years ago. This whole thing is sad and it is just another excuse to pull the plug on Amtrak. In California we have close to $3.00 gas now. It will be $5 and then $10 soon. Train travel is looking better and better. Too bad it will all be gone when we all break down and want to use it again. It is probably easier to keep track of the citizens if they stay in one place anyhow. After September 11 all the jet planes were forbidden to fly and one of the open alternatives was the train. If (or I maybe should say when) this type of thing happens again it may be that one more option is closed. Amtrak was set up to fail in this venture and it is really a crime. The timing could not have been better planned. The supposed flagship and savior of american rail travel is shown to have serious flaws at a time when they are questioning continuing the service. This area the train travels in is the most profitable one for passenger service. It is the only area that people travel on it with a fequency like that of the "good old days". This one area of strength was promised a silver bullet and given a mylar band-aid. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 17, 2005 1:05 AM Hmph. Would you rather have Amcrack run the acelas anyways while they tried to crack the problems of fixing small issues in the brakes? Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 17, 2005 7:40 AM CNN says no service until at least Wednesday Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:21 AM ...Where are the engineering capibilities like those who put men on the moon when applied to engineering new products for land based transportation...Surely we can do better. But then there seem to be too many around who really don't want rail transportation to succeed in this country. Why....That's a mystery to me and has been for years. Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:24 AM That is a great question you can that also why we cannot engineer ourselves into self sufficency on oil. QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Where are the engineering capibilities like those who put men on the moon when applied to enineering new products for land based transportation...Surely we can do better. But then there seem to be too many around who really don't want rail transportation to succeed in this country. Why....That's a mystery to me and has been for years. Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Paul Milenkovic Member sinceJuly 2004 2,741 posts Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:32 PM The Acela indeed uses the same engineering talent that put a man on the Moon -- Canadian! The story goes that the Canadians were building a high Mach-number interceptor called the Avro Arrow, they pulled the plug on that project, and the engineers all went South of the Border to design the Apollo Command module. The problem is in fact that the Acela is approached just like landing a man on the Moon -- an expensive, custom, one-of design, and if it breaks, you radio instructions on how to rig the air purifier with duct tape, and one of the astronauts lands with a urinary infection (I am told nothing can make you sicker than one of those) because he thought he had to hold it to conserve power on the urinal heater to make it back instead of burn up on reentry (lets compare Apollo 13 with the worst Amtrak travel horror story). Rail transportation is not suceeding, but is space transportation in such great shape (all of the travails with Shuttle)? Before we get into conspiracy theories for either of those modes of transportation, lets look at fundamentals. What does the Acela really do that the Metroliners (years since they were MU cars, and the original MU cars were car-barn queens) cannot do? I guess a Metroliner (AEM-7 pulling Amfleet cars) takes 3 hours and the Acela (pair of Alsthom power cars pulling/pushing reworked LRC cars) takes 2 hours 45 minutes. Funny thing, both trains have in excess of 100 MPH running, but you are talking about 70 MPH vs 78 MPH average speed. Instead of getting the Acela trains sets, could Amtrak have looked at the causes of slow running and spent the money on that, or are the approach routes to NY, Philly, etc so restricted by route decisions made two centuries ago that you can't get those trains to run a little quicker over the slow sections? Part of the cachet of Acela is the interiors wired for laptop computers -- could they have run some Amfleet cars through Beech Grove to do the same thing? The story is that for the original Northeast Corridor "demonstration", the DOT tested a set of up-geared Budd Silverliner MU cars and set a speed record of 160 MPH with them, but when the Metroliner MU's were built, they came up with a new design that needed much more horsepower because they wanted it to accelerate quicker, and the HP added weight which need yet more HP, and they came up with these heavy, rough riding MU cars which kept breaking down from electrical problems -- they were never fixed, instead, the AEM-7 electric locomotive saved the say. If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks? Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Originally posted by Jack P Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply mucable Member sinceDecember 2001 47 posts Posted by mucable on Friday, April 15, 2005 1:40 PM God forbid those politicians should have to ride the lowly Metroliner! i think they should all be forced to ride the old mu's. Now there's a mode of travel that's not politically correct!!! Reply jchnhtfd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 1,537 posts Posted by jchnhtfd on Friday, April 15, 2005 2:17 PM If it cheers anyone up any... this sort of thing happens to airplanes, too, when they first go into service. Only no one hears about it... Jamie Reply TH&B Member sinceJuly 2003 964 posts Posted by TH&B on Friday, April 15, 2005 2:40 PM For that matter it also happens to European High Speed trains too. Unless you read the Swedish news you won't hear about the X2000 being taken out of servive due to cracks, wich has happened. Reply martin.knoepfel Member sinceDecember 2003 400 posts Posted by martin.knoepfel on Friday, April 15, 2005 3:27 PM The Germans had similar problems with a diesel-tilt-train, which is not high-speed. First, all trains were restricted in curve-speed, i.e. slowed-down to non-tilting-standards. then, they were sidelined until repair was done. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 16, 2005 7:15 AM According to the AP news story today, the cracks are in the steel spokes of the disc brake rotors. Repair time could be weeks to as long as a couple of months. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 16, 2005 8:09 AM The papers this AM said the cracks are a millimeter long Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 16, 2005 10:49 PM If I remember correctly Amtrak brought over 3 or 4 different exisiting high-speed train sets from europe a few years ago when they were gearing up to start the service in the US. They made a big show of it. I went to see one when it came to DC Union Station. One car was set up to tilt and you could walk through the rest of the train. I think it was one of the German ICE trains. In Japan they have had this type of train since the 1960's and europe since the 70's. The powers that be are so bass ackwards they decided that it would be a good idea to reject all of these proven designs and start from scratch. So they started from the begining and built all new unproven designs. Then while they wasted time doing this they upgraded and wired much of the track in the NEC. When the new train set was done and ready to test at the test ground in Colorado. They found all kinds of problems like uneven wheel wear. Each time they found a problem they slapped a redesign bandage or a restriction on it. These trains were flawed from the begining. Amtrak was just being forced to build it here for job and political reasons although the trains these high speed ones would replace were headed by the most powerful engines owned by Amtrak, those slabsided Swedi***oasters. Those weren't made or designed in the US. So there is a precident for going outside and in this case they should have. It would have saved money, time and greif. After many restrictions and too much time passed at the Colorado test grounds and in rebuild / redesigns they finally brought the trains to the NEC to test. They found that the tilt mechanisim made the cars overhang onto parallel tracks. So unless they wanted to temp fate the trains most high tech expensive feature is moot. Now it is just extra weight keeping the car on the track and much money lost. OOPS. Come on, was nobody thinking about this. Good thing this isn't rocket science. There is only on section in Rhode Island where the train can reach full speed anyway. There were trains in the steam era that were able to keep close shedule to this service and that was over 50 years ago. This whole thing is sad and it is just another excuse to pull the plug on Amtrak. In California we have close to $3.00 gas now. It will be $5 and then $10 soon. Train travel is looking better and better. Too bad it will all be gone when we all break down and want to use it again. It is probably easier to keep track of the citizens if they stay in one place anyhow. After September 11 all the jet planes were forbidden to fly and one of the open alternatives was the train. If (or I maybe should say when) this type of thing happens again it may be that one more option is closed. Amtrak was set up to fail in this venture and it is really a crime. The timing could not have been better planned. The supposed flagship and savior of american rail travel is shown to have serious flaws at a time when they are questioning continuing the service. This area the train travels in is the most profitable one for passenger service. It is the only area that people travel on it with a fequency like that of the "good old days". This one area of strength was promised a silver bullet and given a mylar band-aid. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 17, 2005 1:05 AM Hmph. Would you rather have Amcrack run the acelas anyways while they tried to crack the problems of fixing small issues in the brakes? Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 17, 2005 7:40 AM CNN says no service until at least Wednesday Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:21 AM ...Where are the engineering capibilities like those who put men on the moon when applied to engineering new products for land based transportation...Surely we can do better. But then there seem to be too many around who really don't want rail transportation to succeed in this country. Why....That's a mystery to me and has been for years. Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:24 AM That is a great question you can that also why we cannot engineer ourselves into self sufficency on oil. QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Where are the engineering capibilities like those who put men on the moon when applied to enineering new products for land based transportation...Surely we can do better. But then there seem to be too many around who really don't want rail transportation to succeed in this country. Why....That's a mystery to me and has been for years. Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Paul Milenkovic Member sinceJuly 2004 2,741 posts Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:32 PM The Acela indeed uses the same engineering talent that put a man on the Moon -- Canadian! The story goes that the Canadians were building a high Mach-number interceptor called the Avro Arrow, they pulled the plug on that project, and the engineers all went South of the Border to design the Apollo Command module. The problem is in fact that the Acela is approached just like landing a man on the Moon -- an expensive, custom, one-of design, and if it breaks, you radio instructions on how to rig the air purifier with duct tape, and one of the astronauts lands with a urinary infection (I am told nothing can make you sicker than one of those) because he thought he had to hold it to conserve power on the urinal heater to make it back instead of burn up on reentry (lets compare Apollo 13 with the worst Amtrak travel horror story). Rail transportation is not suceeding, but is space transportation in such great shape (all of the travails with Shuttle)? Before we get into conspiracy theories for either of those modes of transportation, lets look at fundamentals. What does the Acela really do that the Metroliners (years since they were MU cars, and the original MU cars were car-barn queens) cannot do? I guess a Metroliner (AEM-7 pulling Amfleet cars) takes 3 hours and the Acela (pair of Alsthom power cars pulling/pushing reworked LRC cars) takes 2 hours 45 minutes. Funny thing, both trains have in excess of 100 MPH running, but you are talking about 70 MPH vs 78 MPH average speed. Instead of getting the Acela trains sets, could Amtrak have looked at the causes of slow running and spent the money on that, or are the approach routes to NY, Philly, etc so restricted by route decisions made two centuries ago that you can't get those trains to run a little quicker over the slow sections? Part of the cachet of Acela is the interiors wired for laptop computers -- could they have run some Amfleet cars through Beech Grove to do the same thing? The story is that for the original Northeast Corridor "demonstration", the DOT tested a set of up-geared Budd Silverliner MU cars and set a speed record of 160 MPH with them, but when the Metroliner MU's were built, they came up with a new design that needed much more horsepower because they wanted it to accelerate quicker, and the HP added weight which need yet more HP, and they came up with these heavy, rough riding MU cars which kept breaking down from electrical problems -- they were never fixed, instead, the AEM-7 electric locomotive saved the say. If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks? Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Where are the engineering capibilities like those who put men on the moon when applied to enineering new products for land based transportation...Surely we can do better. But then there seem to be too many around who really don't want rail transportation to succeed in this country. Why....That's a mystery to me and has been for years.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
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