Originally posted by daveklepper [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 25, 2005 7:35 AM We rode the Silverton train in the late 70s while it was still operated by the D&RGW. The Farmington branch was gone by then, but the narrow gauge was intact from Durango to the dual-gauge interchange at Alamosa. I'm almost certain they weren't operating tourist trains over that line, at least not on a regular basis. I can't remember the source, but remember reading that the Farmington branch had something to do with the Manhatten Project and that's why it lasted as long as it did. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 25, 2005 10:09 AM If I recall correctly, Lucius Beebe wrote, in High Iron, that one component of the narrow guage empire - D&RGW or RGS - was mysteriously kept afloat during the war, after which it was discovered to have been hauling uranium. I'll have to look through the book this weekend. Beebe was not the most precise historian, though. Reply Edit CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, March 25, 2005 10:21 AM I may not be correct but I believe that the Farmington branch did extend all the way to Santa Fe, NM at one point. Since Los Alamos is located relatively near Santa Fe, this may be the source of the stories about hauling uranium. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,898 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, March 25, 2005 10:53 AM The Santa Fe branch connected at Antonito. It was originally planned to be part of the line to Mexico. It was abandoned Sept 1, 1941. The Farmington branch was completed in 1905 as a standard gauge railroad. It was built because Harriman interests were projecting a railroad into southwest Colorado to tap coal areas. The branch was built using the surveys of this other company and possible built as a standard gauge railroad in case they lost in court. I believe it was converted to narrow gauge around 1920. My info comes from John B. Norwood's excellent books on the D&RGW narrow gauge. Jeff Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 25, 2005 12:58 PM Here's a link to a good history of the Rio Grande Southern http://users.viawest.net/~bdwhite/rgstec8.htm It turns out that the railroad was deemed so vital to the war efforts in WWII, because of its location near mines of several types of strategic metals, that the Office of Defense Transportation effectively bought the road from its receiver in 1942. And the RGS did apparently haul out the ore that wound up in the Hiroshima bomb. But a highway effectively ended the need for the railroad even before teh end of the war. Reply Edit espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Friday, March 25, 2005 1:16 PM The Durango,Alamosa line was abandoned in 1968.As of June 1967,they were running one train a week. Ride Amtrak. Cats Rule, Dogs Drool. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 25, 2006 7:19 PM I'm a big fan of the narrow guage lines in southwestern Colorado, and was wondering if there's ever been any discussion of reactivating the "gap" between Chama and Durango. As far as I know, the tracks are still there. Anyone know? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 25, 2006 7:22 PM Daveklepper: what was the section between Durango and Chama like? Mountainous? Scenic? Boy, I wish I had had the opportunity to ride it back in the day. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, February 25, 2006 7:59 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer The Durango,Alamosa line was abandoned in 1968. As of June 1967, they were running one train a week. The Durango to Farmington line was also abandoned in 1968. The application for abandonment was made in Sept 1967. The 294.5 miles of narrow gauge had 21 mikes and diesel #50 for power. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, February 25, 2006 9:46 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 [ The 294.5 miles of narrow gauge had 21 mikes and diesel #50 for power. Any idea what kind of diesel #50 was? This sounds in teresting.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, February 25, 2006 9:52 PM It was a little 2 axel switcher that is at the Colorado Railroad Museum. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=80306 Dale Reply samfp1943 Member sinceJune 2003 From: South Central,Ks 7,170 posts Posted by samfp1943 on Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill QUOTE: Originally posted by lfish Here's a link to a good history of the Rio Grande Southern http://users.viawest.net/~bdwhite/rgstec8.htm It turns out that the railroad was deemed so vital to the war efforts in WWII, because of its location near mines of several types of strategic metals, that the Office of Defense Transportation effectively bought the road from its receiver in 1942. And the RGS did apparently haul out the ore that wound up in the Hiroshima bomb. But a highway effectively ended the need for the railroad even before teh end of the war. Larry, et al.: Mark: At one time there was a lot of hopper car traffic from the Farmington Branch that was retrucked at Alamosa back onto standard gauge trucks for delivery( retrucking to narrow gauge for the trip down to Farmington). I was told in the late 1950 and in 1961 that that traffic was Bauxite ore and that was what kept it going.. I gues in light of what was said here I was told wrong? Thanks, Sam Sorry to debunk romantic legends, but the RGS and D&RGW hauled absolutely zero uranium ore that comprised the material used in the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or in the Manhattan Project. The uranium used in the Manhattan Project came from Canada and the Belgian Congo. The Farmington Branch persisted to haul drill stem and oil pipe, not uranium ore. I can't find any reference in the D&RGW or RGS annual reports that the Office of Defense Transportation purchased any stock, loaned any money, or otherwise assisted in the finance of the RGS during WWII. The RGS had heavy (for it) traffic during WWII of zinc and lead concentrate from Pandora and Rico to Ridgway. Zinc and lead were strategic metals -- zinc alloyed with copper for brass cartridge cases and as elemental metal for galvanizing steel, and lead for batteries, bullets, radiator cores, etc. Reply samfp1943 Member sinceJune 2003 From: South Central,Ks 7,170 posts Posted by samfp1943 on Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:17 PM Mark: I failed to get the question posted with the above quote.. I was told during a couple of trips to durango during the late 1950's and again in 61 that the Farmington line was a source of Bauxite ore, and the strings of hoppers in and out were retrucked at Alamosa for narrow gaue to Farmingto and standard gaue for final delivery to whereever the Bauxite was used. Do you know if there was ever any Bauxite haulage on the Farmington Branch? Thanks, Sam Reply samfp1943 Member sinceJune 2003 From: South Central,Ks 7,170 posts Posted by samfp1943 on Monday, February 27, 2006 7:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943 Mark: I failed to get the question posted with the above quote.. I was told during a couple of trips to durango during the late 1950's and again in 61 that the Farmington line was a source of Bauxite ore, and the strings of hoppers in and out were retrucked at Alamosa for narrow gaue to Farmingto and standard gaue for final delivery to whereever the Bauxite was used. Do you know if there was ever any Bauxite haulage on the Farmington Branch? Thanks, Sam Sam: I've never heard of standard-gauge hoppers being retrucked at Alamosa for transshipment to and from the narrow-gauge. Not to say it didn't happen, but I have never seen photographs or any reports of this. I don't know how you would even get a standard-gauge hopper to Farmington given the clearances and track structure. There are no economically significant bauxite deposits in New Mexico -- and practically none in the U.S., either. Maybe it was another mineral -- but I am very dubious it was bauxite. Bauxite isn't very valuable and I don't see how it could have possibly stood the transportation charges for this move considering it would be competing against very cheap bauxite delivered by very cheap all-water moves to tidewater alumina plants. Thanks, Mark: It was a long time ago; my family took us to Durango, and Silverton and spent some time in that 4 Corners area, admittedly I was a lot younger and pretty impressionable at the time. I remember an A-frame derrick at Alamosa and a whole bunch of standard gaue trucks around there as well as some narrow gauge trucks. I remember being told at the time that they were used to swap standard gauge cars to narrow and back. I may have been the victim of an inside joke, it sure stuck in my mind for a long time. When you get back from Iraq, will we be seeing some print articles on your experiences there? Some info on railroads in Saudi Arabia would be of interest also. Stay Safe, and Thanks, Sam Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 27, 2006 10:14 PM As I recall, bauxite in the US was mined in Arkansas. Most of the aluminum ever produced is still in circulation - tens of millions of tons. Could the railroads better tap into and help grow the perpetual circle of recycling that aluminum represents? Here's a link to the Aluminum Institute: http://www.world-aluminium.org/production/mining/ Hope things are going well for you, Mark. Reply Edit daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 3:22 AM 1. I was also told around 1960-'82 that some trains did swap trucks at Alamosa, but I never saw any evidence myself. Certainly, the main frieght products at the time, oil-drilling pipe, livestock, coal, and petroleum, where moved between the cars of different gauges. 2. The most scenic part of line between Chama and Durango was along the twisting San Juan River, with more forestation than the more desert like scenery along today's C&T. There were a number of bridges across tributary streams, and the line may have crossed over the river a number of times. I recall one high bridge exellent for an extended photo stop, allowing photographing the locomotive and most of the train, but double headers required moving the first locomtive across separately. Part of the line was relocated to higher ground between 1960 and 1962 with new jointed-rail track and good ballast, and part of this line was on a ridge with views to valleys in both directions. While the scenery was less spectacular than Las Animas Canyon, Windy Point, and Toltec Gorge, it was far from boring. I remember riding the old line in 1960 and the new one in 1962, but am unsure of which in 1961. Speeds were generally faster on this portion of the line. Reply erikem Member sinceDecember 2005 From: Cardiff, CA 2,930 posts Posted by erikem on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 12:13 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill Sorry to debunk romantic legends, but the RGS and D&RGW hauled absolutely zero uranium ore that comprised the material used in the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or in the Manhattan Project. The uranium used in the Manhattan Project came from Canada and the Belgian Congo. One of the sources for that romantic legend was Narrow Gauge in the Rockies by Beebe and Clegg. QUOTE: The Farmington Branch persisted to haul drill stem and oil pipe, not uranium ore. Which leads to a "what if" question - what if the drilling activity in Farmington started a couple of year before the RGS was abandoned rather than a couple of years afterwards. My uderstanding was that the pipe was coming from Geneva Steel in Utah and it would have made more sense to haul it over the RGS instead of hauling over Tennessee Pass, La Veta Pass and Cumbres Pass. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 4:34 AM I think it would not have made a difference. The route over La Vita Pass and through Alamosa, Antoninto, Chama, and Durango, to Framington, was still a lower-cost route that via the RGW: much heavier rail, less steep grades, fewer sharper curves, etc. Also, it was an all D&RGW route, while the RGS, even though borrowing equipment and even sometimes personal from the D&RGW, was a separate concern. The only D&RGW narrow-gauge Mikes allowed on the RGS were the Mudhens, the K-26's. The heavier power could not be handled by the light rail and bridge loadings. They did fine on the Alamosa - Durango - Farmington line, and then after rebuilding, up to Silverton, but even then Silverton could take the heaviest of the four classes only after the D&RGW got serious about the tourist operation, I think even after Chama - Durango was abandoned. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 2, 2006 3:01 AM On further thought, if the "Valley Line", the narrow gauge route that left Alamosa somewhat east of the station on the standard gauge La Vita Pass line and ran almost directly north to Salida had been in place, it might have replaced the La Vita Pass route for the oil-well pipework. But I never learned about bridge traffic being handled on the RGS. From what I read (since I never got to ride the line) local, originating, and terminating traffic was all that was handled. Someone might correct me if I am in error. But from what I remember from photos, not only did D&RGW narrow gauge freightcars get handled, but also on occasion Colorado Southern (Denver South Park and Pacific) cars. The RGS never actually bought new anything larger than a 2-8-0. It leased or purchased second-hand Mudhen 2-8-2's from the D&RGW, but the three larger classes of 2-8-2's stayed on D&RGW rails. I do have two good friends who rode the RGS and told me about their wonderful trips. One rode both behind steam and in a goose and the other only in gooses. Reply CANADIANPACIFIC2816 Member sinceMarch 2005 From: SIOUX FALLS, SOUTH DAKOTA 2,483 posts Posted by CANADIANPACIFIC2816 on Thursday, March 2, 2006 10:32 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by duncanclew I'm a big fan of the narrow guage lines in southwestern Colorado, and was wondering if there's ever been any discussion of reactivating the "gap" between Chama and Durango. As far as I know, the tracks are still there. Anyone know? The trackage between Durango and Chama was abandoned and then torn up in the early 1970's, I think. I know for certain that it no longer exists. I was once a member of the Friends of the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad and some years ago the Friends of the C&TS RR produced a documentary film, running a four-wheel drive vehicle over the original grade of that segment in question. I have that program on video tape. It was very interesting. If we could restore this trackage between Durango and Chama, which is something I dream of doing, you would have one heck of a narrow gauge railroad trip behind steam power. You could go all the way to Silverton, Colorado from Chama, New Mexico. CANADIANPACIFIC2816 Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,820 posts Posted by mudchicken on Thursday, March 2, 2006 10:52 AM A healthy chunk of that was a line change in 1966 to avoid the Navajo Reservoir project SE of Ignatio and another chunk is now CDOT R/W....not likely to happen. http://www.ghostdepot.com/rg/maps/profiles/drgw%20profile%2020.gif Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer The Durango,Alamosa line was abandoned in 1968. As of June 1967, they were running one train a week.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 [ The 294.5 miles of narrow gauge had 21 mikes and diesel #50 for power.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill QUOTE: Originally posted by lfish Here's a link to a good history of the Rio Grande Southern http://users.viawest.net/~bdwhite/rgstec8.htm It turns out that the railroad was deemed so vital to the war efforts in WWII, because of its location near mines of several types of strategic metals, that the Office of Defense Transportation effectively bought the road from its receiver in 1942. And the RGS did apparently haul out the ore that wound up in the Hiroshima bomb. But a highway effectively ended the need for the railroad even before teh end of the war. Larry, et al.: Mark: At one time there was a lot of hopper car traffic from the Farmington Branch that was retrucked at Alamosa back onto standard gauge trucks for delivery( retrucking to narrow gauge for the trip down to Farmington). I was told in the late 1950 and in 1961 that that traffic was Bauxite ore and that was what kept it going.. I gues in light of what was said here I was told wrong? Thanks, Sam Sorry to debunk romantic legends, but the RGS and D&RGW hauled absolutely zero uranium ore that comprised the material used in the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or in the Manhattan Project. The uranium used in the Manhattan Project came from Canada and the Belgian Congo. The Farmington Branch persisted to haul drill stem and oil pipe, not uranium ore. I can't find any reference in the D&RGW or RGS annual reports that the Office of Defense Transportation purchased any stock, loaned any money, or otherwise assisted in the finance of the RGS during WWII. The RGS had heavy (for it) traffic during WWII of zinc and lead concentrate from Pandora and Rico to Ridgway. Zinc and lead were strategic metals -- zinc alloyed with copper for brass cartridge cases and as elemental metal for galvanizing steel, and lead for batteries, bullets, radiator cores, etc.
QUOTE: Originally posted by lfish Here's a link to a good history of the Rio Grande Southern http://users.viawest.net/~bdwhite/rgstec8.htm It turns out that the railroad was deemed so vital to the war efforts in WWII, because of its location near mines of several types of strategic metals, that the Office of Defense Transportation effectively bought the road from its receiver in 1942. And the RGS did apparently haul out the ore that wound up in the Hiroshima bomb. But a highway effectively ended the need for the railroad even before teh end of the war.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943 Mark: I failed to get the question posted with the above quote.. I was told during a couple of trips to durango during the late 1950's and again in 61 that the Farmington line was a source of Bauxite ore, and the strings of hoppers in and out were retrucked at Alamosa for narrow gaue to Farmingto and standard gaue for final delivery to whereever the Bauxite was used. Do you know if there was ever any Bauxite haulage on the Farmington Branch? Thanks, Sam Sam: I've never heard of standard-gauge hoppers being retrucked at Alamosa for transshipment to and from the narrow-gauge. Not to say it didn't happen, but I have never seen photographs or any reports of this. I don't know how you would even get a standard-gauge hopper to Farmington given the clearances and track structure. There are no economically significant bauxite deposits in New Mexico -- and practically none in the U.S., either. Maybe it was another mineral -- but I am very dubious it was bauxite. Bauxite isn't very valuable and I don't see how it could have possibly stood the transportation charges for this move considering it would be competing against very cheap bauxite delivered by very cheap all-water moves to tidewater alumina plants.
QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943 Mark: I failed to get the question posted with the above quote.. I was told during a couple of trips to durango during the late 1950's and again in 61 that the Farmington line was a source of Bauxite ore, and the strings of hoppers in and out were retrucked at Alamosa for narrow gaue to Farmingto and standard gaue for final delivery to whereever the Bauxite was used. Do you know if there was ever any Bauxite haulage on the Farmington Branch? Thanks, Sam
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill Sorry to debunk romantic legends, but the RGS and D&RGW hauled absolutely zero uranium ore that comprised the material used in the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or in the Manhattan Project. The uranium used in the Manhattan Project came from Canada and the Belgian Congo.
QUOTE: The Farmington Branch persisted to haul drill stem and oil pipe, not uranium ore.
QUOTE: Originally posted by duncanclew I'm a big fan of the narrow guage lines in southwestern Colorado, and was wondering if there's ever been any discussion of reactivating the "gap" between Chama and Durango. As far as I know, the tracks are still there. Anyone know?
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