Have a Question About The 12 Hour Rule

[nobullchitbids]

Yeah, ain't it amazin' how quickly you can recover from bein' tired on this job?

[wabash1]

bob frymil

No Its not. sitting on a train is not performing service. if i am in the siding waiting on a relief crew that is all i am doing . if its on the main line i need to tie them down properly before the hours of service gets me.

and as far as reporting the hours of service violation to the fra there is no need to with the ns as there is a report generated by the computor and all hours of service violations are highlighted these are the ones the fra comes in and looks at. and with us there is a line on who told you to work past 12hr and why.

also to be fair it has happened to me 2 times to work past the hours of service . and each time i made the officer tell me over the radio with name and title so it is recorded. the super attendants office dont like anyone to break the rule so it better be a good reason when they do.

Also it depends on the fra officer and how he interpets the rule as if you are breaking it. we have ask the fra about rules and hours of service and 3 differant officers give 3 defferant answers. but all agreed we dont sign your paycheck do as they tell you even if it is wrong we will sort it out.

[Bob-Fryml]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

this does not only affect engineers but also conductors.

The 12 hrs rule is a rule that limits the crew on performing work not how long they are on duty. I will attempt on exsplaining this in 3 ways

1) a crew takes charge of a train at chicago ( home terminal) ands heads for springfield,Il (away terminal) it took 11hrs 50min to do this . they will go to the dorm or to the motel and rest 8 hrs before going back to chicago. why becouse the crew had no real time left to preform any work so the 12 hr rule simply makes them take rest.

2) a crew takes charge of a train in chicago ( home terminal ) and heads for springfield Il ( away terminal) makes the run in 2 hrs they are told to hop on the north bound and go back to chicago ( this can be done bythe carrier if there is no rested crews at away terminal ) this takes them 4 hrs total time on duty 6 hrs all legal. What extra pay they get is determined by the contract. in most cases it is just the over miles which add up nicly for a good check.

3) A crew takes a train from chicago to springfield il and about the time they reach joliet Il the blues brothers and 400 illinois state troopers on thier tale wreck in front of the train the engineer puts it in emergency and stops 5 ft from the crossing ( where the m&m twins are waiting with the angles on tracks group ) and sit for 14 hrs before a cab showes up with the relief crew . we jump in the cab and head for burger king (m whopper with cheese is great after 14 hrs on the road so far.) and taxi to springfield. and after 17 hrs on duty we tie up. we did not break the hours of service law because no work was performed work is moving that train switching cars and such just riding in a cab dont mean you are working you are getting paid for being on duty you just aint working.

Now in senario 1 if the crew was getting into springfield and it was chrismas the railroad can and does dead head home in combind service ( continued timeslip) and this does not go agianst the hours of service law.

Sitting with full independent brake set, a 20-psi brake pipe reduction, and no handbrakes applied to secure the train constitutes "attending to the train" which the FRA holds to be Hours-of-Service work. Assuming that a relief crew doesn't get there in time, failure to secure the train within the HOS period results in a $7500 fine per crew member.

[Bob-Fryml]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

this does not only affect engineers but also conductors.

The 12 hrs rule is a rule that limits the crew on performing work not how long they are on duty. I will attempt on exsplaining this in 3 ways

1) a crew takes charge of a train at chicago ( home terminal) ands heads for springfield,Il (away terminal) it took 11hrs 50min to do this . they will go to the dorm or to the motel and rest 8 hrs before going back to chicago. why becouse the crew had no real time left to preform any work so the 12 hr rule simply makes them take rest.

2) a crew takes charge of a train in chicago ( home terminal ) and heads for springfield Il ( away terminal) makes the run in 2 hrs they are told to hop on the north bound and go back to chicago ( this can be done bythe carrier if there is no rested crews at away terminal ) this takes them 4 hrs total time on duty 6 hrs all legal. What extra pay they get is determined by the contract. in most cases it is just the over miles which add up nicly for a good check.

3) A crew takes a train from chicago to springfield il and about the time they reach joliet Il the blues brothers and 400 illinois state troopers on thier tale wreck in front of the train the engineer puts it in emergency and stops 5 ft from the crossing ( where the m&m twins are waiting with the angles on tracks group ) and sit for 14 hrs before a cab showes up with the relief crew . we jump in the cab and head for burger king (m whopper with cheese is great after 14 hrs on the road so far.) and taxi to springfield. and after 17 hrs on duty we tie up. we did not break the hours of service law because no work was performed work is moving that train switching cars and such just riding in a cab dont mean you are working you are getting paid for being on duty you just aint working.

Now in senario 1 if the crew was getting into springfield and it was chrismas the railroad can and does dead head home in combind service ( continued timeslip) and this does not go agianst the hours of service law.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

the Excuse that you had to do it because you were ordered went out with the Nurmberg trails.
The Germans use to use the excuse " Befel ist Befel" or an Order is an Order.
I know CSX and NS like to intimidate crews but you beat the cake son.

you got alot of never thier old timer..... try and pull your additued on csx..and you will be fired for insubordination.....you cannot refuse duty...regarless if its a violation or not.... if you are orderd to do something by managment.... you have to do....why cant you get that through your thick head..... you can object... but if that fails...and they say..."are you refuseing duty" and you say yes...your DONE!!!! insubordination!!!!!! you have to do what your are told..... and then take it up with the proper channels later.... the FRA...union....what ever the case maybe...but you cannot refuse duty......why cant you understand that.....
csx engineer

[Dutchrailnut]

the Excuse that you had to do it because you were ordered went out with the Nurmberg trails.
The Germans use to use the excuse " Befhel ist Befhel" or an Order is an Order.
I know CSX and NS like to intimidate crews but you beat the cake son.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

CSXengineer the FRA's take on all this is if a train is in the yard the Emergency is over. so no excuuse to go beyond the Hours of Service rule.
Its your Obligation to object to the violation or it becomes a willfull violation with a fine to individual of upto $20 k

your so full of crap.... when your in the yard..putting your train away..and you tell the yard master that your about to go on the law in X number of mins... and then the TM comes on the radio and says im ordering you to finsh putting the train away... you still have to do it.... it isnt any excuess other then the train master ordered you to do it.... and its not a willfull vilolation if your ordered......your missing the point..you can object untill your blue in the face and your pass out from lack of oxygen..but if managment tells you to do it...you HAVE to do it..how hard is that for you to get.... the only protection you have to cover your butt is to get the name and time of the insident...if you dont get this information then yes....it can be pined on you as a willfull violation!!!!!!! refusel is insubordination!!!! why cant you get this....
csx engineer

[BaltACD]

On thing I'll interject into this topic.

the 12 Hour Law is not taken lighly by either Labor or Management, both sides do their utmost to adhere to all it's provisions. However, with the railroads being dynamic 'living & breathing' beings in their operating enviornment there are situations where the disruption to operations outweighs the penalties that the company will pay for authorizing employees to violate the Hours of Service. The companies have the obligation to report every instance where employees are directed to violate the Hours of Service Law, this is reported routinely.

Operating railroads are dynamic and from an operating viewpoint, moveable trains must be kept moving when not moving them will prevent other moveable trains from moving. Liken an Hours of Service stricken train on Single Main Track to a blocked artery to the heart.....so long as the heart is deprived of blood it will come under distress and expire.

I might add the trains going HOS in critical locations and conditions is a function of poor dispatching, trying to get the train to it's final terminal in spite of the odds and without having a back-up plan. It is better to have a Recew on duty and knock them down, when the train completes its run, than to try and make the train without having the recrew available. Railroading 101. That being said, some local managements don't believe it until they expreience the situation time after time.

[Dutchrailnut]

Just cover yourself, If need be do the work but under protest. And call FRA , you do not need to give your name.
one way to get rid of Little Ceasar with the T/M title.

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER II--FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORTATION

PART 228--HOURS OF SERVICE OF RAILROAD EMPLOYEES--Table of Contents

Subpart B--Records and Reporting

Sec. 228.21 Civil penalty.

Any person (an entity of any type covered under 1 U.S.C. 1,
including but not limited to the following: a railroad; a manager,
supervisor, official, or other employee or agent of a railroad; any
owner, manufacturer, lessor, or lessee of railroad equipment, track, or
facilities; any independent contractor providing goods or services to a
railroad; and any employee of such owner, manufacturer, lessor, lessee,
or independent contractor) who violates any requirement of this part or
causes the violation of any such requirement is subject to a civil
penalty of at least $500 and not more than $11,000 per violation, except
that: Penalties may be assessed against individuals only for willful
violations, and, where a grossly negligent violation or a pattern of
repeated violations has created an imminent hazard of death or injury to
persons, or has caused death or injury, a penalty not to exceed $22,000
per violation may be assessed. Each day a violation continues shall
constitute a separate offense. See appendix B to this part for a
statement of agency civil penalty policy. Violations of the Hours of
Service Act itself (e.g., requiring an employee to work excessive hours
or beginning construction of a sleeping quarters subject to approval
under subpart C of this part without prior approval) are subject to
penalty under that Act's penalty provision, 45 U.S.C. 64a.

[53 FR 52931, Dec. 29, 1988, as amended at 63 FR 11622, Mar. 10, 1998]

[spbed]

Why not just get their employee #? Only one employee has the same # so their can not be a mistake unless the person who ordered you to go over 12 hours gave you someone elses # instead of his own. [;)][;)][;)]

Originally posted by shrek623

Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR  Austin TX Sub

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