Have a Question About The 12 Hour Rule

[spbed]

Lets us say you make your WB run to the next crew change point in 3 hours. Can the RRs turn you right around on the next EBer or do they have to give you time off after your WB run?

[Hugh Jampton]

Yep,, after a 15 minute "human needs" break.
That's the way it is over here anyway

[Dutchrailnut]

The railroad owns you for 12 hours they can run you east west north south, run you one direction and after 12 put you in hotel.
Personal breaks or lunch ???, better carry some cause you may not get oportunity to buy.

[spbed]

Thank you for your info about the UK but I am more wondering about the USA. As a example I was at Needles CA which is a crew change point for the BNSF. It is a very busy place because ALL BNSF trains destined from SF south pass thru. The run from Barstow to Needles is basically desert running. It is also hi speed running. Once I was trying to pace a train at 80MPH & he was PULLING away from me. My question is if it take a engineer 3 hours to make that run. Since he still has supposely 9 hours left can the BNSF turn him right around on a WBer back to Barstow? [8D]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

Yep,, after a 15 minute "human needs" break.
That's the way it is over here anyway

[spbed]

Are you talking about the Dutch RRs ot the one here in the USA? [:o)]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

The railroad owns you for 12 hours they can run you east west north south, run you one direction and after 12 put you in hotel.
Personal breaks or lunch ???, better carry some cause you may not get oportunity to buy.

[shrek623]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed

Thank you for your info about the UK but I am more wondering about the USA. As a example I was at Needles CA which is a crew change point for the BNSF. It is a very busy place because ALL BNSF trains destined from SF south pass thru. The run from Barstow to Needles is basically desert running. It is also hi speed running. Once I was trying to pace a train at 80MPH & he was PULLING away from me. My question is if it take a engineer 3 hours to make that run. Since he still has supposely 9 hours left can the BNSF turn him right around on a WBer back to Barstow? [8D]

spbed,

It depends what job you hold. On BNSF, If you hold a pool turn they can only send you in ONE direction. This means if I am say going WB, they can switch me with another WB crew that is maybe shortiming it(which has happened, you're on a empty coal train and you'll be done in 6 hours and then they switch you with a work train and all of a sudden your dying enroute[:(!]). But it has to be in the same direction or you get a penalty. Now on a short turn(extra board guys called to dogcatch), they can make go BOTH directions. So you can Make a WB and an EB trip but if they make take another WB'er, you get a penalty also. Hope this helps.

Shrek

[Overmod]

Since I haven't seen any of the REAL engineers jump in to answer this yet:

The 12-hour rule states how long you can remain able to operate a train legally before taking mandatory 'time off'.

Most railroads would be able to assign you to any duties you're qualified for during that time. I would expect that to be subject to collective-bargaining agreements or perhaps other incentives (guarantees that you'll be able to work out-and-return to give you a fighting chance to go home after shift is over, for example).

Some quick-to-hand examples are in Tuch's columns (which I was reading over a few hours ago):

http://www.railroad.net/articles/columns/hottimes/

My own impression from forum reading is that fast turnarounds are generally desirable UNLESS they involve cluster**** operations or the near-certainty of 'dying on the law' somewhere out in the sticks...

[arbfbe]

Under the Federal Hours of Service Act you are allowed 12 hours of on duty time. If you make it to the away from home terminal in 3 hours you have 9 hours left to work. If the railroad chooses to send you back to your home terminal or another terminal or use you in yard service in less than 4 hours after you tie up at the away from home terminal then this time you were off counts against your HOS time. Say you tie up in the away from home terminal in 3 hours, you get three hours off duty time and the railroad calls you back on duty then you have 6 hours left to perform service. However, if you get 4 or more hours but less than 8 hours off duty and are called back to service then the short rest time does not count against your HOS. You make it to the away from home terminal in 3 hours and tie up for 6 hours and are called back on duty to return home, you would then have 9 hours to perform service on the way back. If you take 3 hours to get to the away from home terminal and get 8 or more hours off then you will have 12 hours to work the way back since the HOS clock is reset after 8 hrs off if the previous trip was less than 12 hours of service.

It is somewhat common in short pool service, (100 mile runs) for crews to double back to their home terminal after arrival or after 4 hours off duty.

It is usual to hear less than 4 hours off called short rest and 4 to 8 hours off as split rest.

Alan, real brakeman since 1969 under the 16 hour law and real engineer since 1978

[wabash1]

this does not only affect engineers but also conductors.

The 12 hrs rule is a rule that limits the crew on performing work not how long they are on duty. I will attempt on exsplaining this in 3 ways

1) a crew takes charge of a train at chicago ( home terminal) ands heads for springfield,Il (away terminal) it took 11hrs 50min to do this . they will go to the dorm or to the motel and rest 8 hrs before going back to chicago. why becouse the crew had no real time left to preform any work so the 12 hr rule simply makes them take rest.

2) a crew takes charge of a train in chicago ( home terminal ) and heads for springfield Il ( away terminal) makes the run in 2 hrs they are told to hop on the north bound and go back to chicago ( this can be done bythe carrier if there is no rested crews at away terminal ) this takes them 4 hrs total time on duty 6 hrs all legal. What extra pay they get is determined by the contract. in most cases it is just the over miles which add up nicly for a good check.

3) A crew takes a train from chicago to springfield il and about the time they reach joliet Il the blues brothers and 400 illinois state troopers on thier tale wreck in front of the train the engineer puts it in emergency and stops 5 ft from the crossing ( where the m&m twins are waiting with the angles on tracks group ) and sit for 14 hrs before a cab showes up with the relief crew . we jump in the cab and head for burger king (m whopper with cheese is great after 14 hrs on the road so far.) and taxi to springfield. and after 17 hrs on duty we tie up. we did not break the hours of service law because no work was performed work is moving that train switching cars and such just riding in a cab dont mean you are working you are getting paid for being on duty you just aint working.

Now in senario 1 if the crew was getting into springfield and it was chrismas the railroad can and does dead head home in combind service ( continued timeslip) and this does not go agianst the hours of service law.

[spbed]

Thank U very much for the explanation. It is greatly appreciated. [:p]

QUOTE: Originally posted by shrek623

QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed

Thank you for your info about the UK but I am more wondering about the USA. As a example I was at Needles CA which is a crew change point for the BNSF. It is a very busy place because ALL BNSF trains destined from SF south pass thru. The run from Barstow to Needles is basically desert running. It is also hi speed running. Once I was trying to pace a train at 80MPH & he was PULLING away from me. My question is if it take a engineer 3 hours to make that run. Since he still has supposely 9 hours left can the BNSF turn him right around on a WBer back to Barstow? [8D]

spbed,

It depends what job you hold. On BNSF, If you hold a pool turn they can only send you in ONE direction. This means if I am say going WB, they can switch me with another WB crew that is maybe shortiming it(which has happened, you're on a empty coal train and you'll be done in 6 hours and then they switch you with a work train and all of a sudden your dying enroute[:(!]). But it has to be in the same direction or you get a penalty. Now on a short turn(extra board guys called to dogcatch), they can make go BOTH directions. So you can Make a WB and an EB trip but if they make take another WB'er, you get a penalty also. Hope this helps.

Shrek

[spbed]

Absorbed it all & thank U very much for the detailed explanation. [:p]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

this does not only affect engineers but also conductors.

The 12 hrs rule is a rule that limits the crew on performing work not how long they are on duty. I will attempt on exsplaining this in 3 ways

1) a crew takes charge of a train at chicago ( home terminal) ands heads for springfield,Il (away terminal) it took 11hrs 50min to do this . they will go to the dorm or to the motel and rest 8 hrs before going back to chicago. why becouse the crew had no real time left to preform any work so the 12 hr rule simply makes them take rest.

2) a crew takes charge of a train in chicago ( home terminal ) and heads for springfield Il ( away terminal) makes the run in 2 hrs they are told to hop on the north bound and go back to chicago ( this can be done bythe carrier if there is no rested crews at away terminal ) this takes them 4 hrs total time on duty 6 hrs all legal. What extra pay they get is determined by the contract. in most cases it is just the over miles which add up nicly for a good check.

3) A crew takes a train from chicago to springfield il and about the time they reach joliet Il the blues brothers and 400 illinois state troopers on thier tale wreck in front of the train the engineer puts it in emergency and stops 5 ft from the crossing ( where the m&m twins are waiting with the angles on tracks group ) and sit for 14 hrs before a cab showes up with the relief crew . we jump in the cab and head for burger king (m whopper with cheese is great after 14 hrs on the road so far.) and taxi to springfield. and after 17 hrs on duty we tie up. we did not break the hours of service law because no work was performed work is moving that train switching cars and such just riding in a cab dont mean you are working you are getting paid for being on duty you just aint working.

Now in senario 1 if the crew was getting into springfield and it was chrismas the railroad can and does dead head home in combind service ( continued timeslip) and this does not go agianst the hours of service law.

[lonewoof]

Sounds to me like the hours of service rules were written by the Internal Revenue Service...

[spbed]

My son has a degree in labor relations. I sent the replies to him & his reply was typical union contract wording.[:p]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lonewoof

Sounds to me like the hours of service rules were written by the Internal Revenue Service...

[dldance]

One day I was railfanning in Vaughn NM and watched an intermodal train overtake a manifest. At Vaughn - both trains stopped and exchanged crews. Then the intermodal train left - followed shortly by the manifest. I expect that the crew exchange was to prevent the crew of the slower manifest from exceeding HOS.

dd

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed

My son has a degree in labor relations. I sent the replies to him & his reply was typical union contract wording.[:p]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lonewoof

Sounds to me like the hours of service rules were written by the Internal Revenue Service...

If the carriers had what the really wanted....there would be no Hours of Service Law. Work them till the drop, then work them some more.

[arbfbe]

SPBED,

It is not a labor agreement, it is a federal law. It was written to give the carriers some flexibility as well as protect the workers.

Under the 16 hour law, deadhead time was counted as rest time. So you could start a deadhead over the road and spend 16 hours or more getting there and be called on duty upon arrival. Or if you were deadheading on a train with a crew and they worked 16 hours and died short of the terminal you could go on duty and dog catch the train right there. Ah, but those were the good times.......

Alan

[Dutchrailnut]

I Am a certified Engineer in USA with about 17 years seniority.

btw here is official Hors of Service rule:

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER II--FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORTATION

PART 228--HOURS OF SERVICE OF RAILROAD EMPLOYEES--Table of Contents

Subpart B--Records and Reporting

Sec. 228.7 Hours of duty.


(a) For purposes of this part, time on duty of an employee actually
engaged in or connected with the movement of any train, including a
hostler, begins when he reports for duty and ends when he is finally
released from duty, and includes--
(1) Time engaged in or connected with the movement of any train;
(2) Any interim period available for rest at a location that is not
a designated terminal;
(3) Any interim period of less than 4 hours available for rest at a
designated terminal;
(4) Time spent in deadhead transportation en route to a duty
assignment; and
(5) Time engaged in any other service for the carrier.

Time spent in deadhead transportation by an employee returning from duty
to his point of final release may not be counted in computing time off
duty or time on duty.
(b) For purposes of this part, time on duty of an employee who
dispatches, reports, transmits, receives, or delivers orders pertaining
to train movements by use of telegraph, telephone, radio, or any other
electrical or mechanical device includes all time on duty in other
service performed for the common carrier during the 24-hour period
involved.
(c) For purposes of this part, time on duty of an employee who is
engaged in installing, repairing or maintaining signal systems includes
all time on duty in other service performed for a common carrier during
the 24-hour period involved.

[37 FR 12234, June 21, 1972, as amended at 43 FR 3124, Jan. 23, 1978]

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed

My son has a degree in labor relations. I sent the replies to him & his reply was typical union contract wording.[:p]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lonewoof

Sounds to me like the hours of service rules were written by the Internal Revenue Service...

the hours of service rules are actuly FRA laws..so it would be US government wording...
csx engineer

[arbfbe]

wabash1;

Let me help you out abit here. The crew can only perform service on the train for 12 hours. A deadhead after reaching the hour of service limit is not counted as a violation of the hours of service. By the same token, the crew's rest does not begin until their deadhead ends.

It is all crystal clear isn't it? Then you have to hold your ground against some trainmaster who wants to sharpshoot the law and cause you to violate. In the old days you could usually back him down. Now it is just better to state your case, do what he says and then let the FRA have a chat with the company to get things straightened out.

Alan

[BigJim]

Let me say one thing if it hasn't already been said. If the company decides to run you back on short rest or 4 hrs., they must first notify you of their intentions.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe

wabash1;

Let me help you out abit here. The crew can only perform service on the train for 12 hours. A deadhead after reaching the hour of service limit is not counted as a violation of the hours of service. By the same token, the crew's rest does not begin until their deadhead ends.

It is all crystal clear isn't it? Then you have to hold your ground against some trainmaster who wants to sharpshoot the law and cause you to violate. In the old days you could usually back him down. Now it is just better to state your case, do what he says and then let the FRA have a chat with the company to get things straightened out.

Alan

you can push him as long as he dont use the words "insibordination" if that word is tossed out thier by the TM..then yea... do what he says and sick the FRA dogs on his butt...lol....but i have found out 1 golden rule on the railroad....
DO EXACTLY AS MANAGMENT TELLS YOU TO DO....THEY WILL LINE YOUR POCKETS WITH MONEY EVEY TIME....lol
csx engineer

[ValleyX]

BigJim, do you mean that they have to notify you when you're putting off duty from the first trip? If so, you're wrong, there's nothing from the FRA that stipulates that they will notify you of their intentions. I've been down that road before and there's nothing, unless you've got an agreement on your property. However, I've never known of them to charge a crewmember with missing a call when called out on short rest.

[spbed]

Thank U for your replies that smarten me up about the rule. I really appreciated it.

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe

wabash1;

Let me help you out abit here. The crew can only perform service on the train for 12 hours. A deadhead after reaching the hour of service limit is not counted as a violation of the hours of service. By the same token, the crew's rest does not begin until their deadhead ends.

It is all crystal clear isn't it? Then you have to hold your ground against some trainmaster who wants to sharpshoot the law and cause you to violate. In the old days you could usually back him down. Now it is just better to state your case, do what he says and then let the FRA have a chat with the company to get things straightened out.

Alan

I am sure i said in my statement that in a cab it is not counted against you in hours of service for a cab ride you get paid but not hours of service violation. and i have had the trainmasters alread try the work past the hours of service law and i did. right after he said what his name and title was over the radio and what he wanted us to do. and made it clear i was out of time.

[Dutchrailnut]

on Most railroads Trainmasters or Roadforeman can NOT order you to violate Hours of Service. in rules it usualy spells out who can order you and in 99% of cases only the Dispatcher can order you to violate the Hours of Service and reasons must be logged.
A low level manager like a trainmaster does not have that authority.

[ValleyX]

A message over the signature of the superintendent is required to instruct you to violate the Hours of Service. The dispatcher is not really a person of authority, he's a contract employee fulfilling a duty, just as you are.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

on Most railroads Trainmasters or Roadforeman can NOT order you to violate Hours of Service. in rules it usualy spells out who can order you and in 99% of cases only the Dispatcher can order you to violate the Hours of Service and reasons must be logged.
A low level manager like a trainmaster does not have that authority.

any level of managment can order a crew to do anything.... or be fired for insubordination..this also includes the hours of service laws.... a dispatcher can tell you...a TM or RFE..terminal manager...hell even a yard master can try and push it too.... the only thing you can do is get thier names and the time in which you where ordered to violate the hours of service law..and then present this information to the FRA..
csx engineer

[spbed]

Does that occur often? When I was in Caliente CA I saw a UPRR train come to a stop on the horse shoe curve & the crew came out the front door. A few secs later a white van pulled up & a new crew hopped on & old crew hopped into the van. I knew the reason for it but it impressed me that it was being done in the middle of no where. All the time this was happening a BNSF UPS train was being held beyond the turn out until the UPRR passed him on after taking the switch. It was fun to watch as to me that is real RR & what I like to see as a rail fan[:o)]

Originally posted by csxengineer98

Originally posted by Dutchrailnut
[

Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR  Austin TX Sub

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