Originally posted by Noah Hofrichter TrummyandElla, your right, the location part means that Oakland is South, I read it as the other way around. Thanks for pointing that out. It's good to know that this is a fairly good spot. But I do have one question. Under the directions, it says to go 1.5 miles off of I-80 on Appian Way till the road ends at the tracks. Under saftey considerations it mentions that you should watch approaching individuals and keep aware of things happening around you. Is this area any sort of a "Bad part of town" or anything? Is there any reason I'd have to be worried? Noah: Thanks for including the directions -- now I know where they are talking about.. If you are coming from Oakland or San Francisco on I-80, take the Appian way exit and turn left (crossing over the Interstate). In about a mile or so you would come to a stoplight at the bottom of a hill. The cross street is San Pablo Avenue. Continue straight through the intersection (the street name changes to Pinion Avenue) and in about a half-mile or so the road dead-ends at the old Santa Fe tracks -- beyond are the old Southern Pacific tracks. By way of a disclaimer, while my parents still live in Pinole, I haven't lived there since leaving for grad school in 1985. While the area wasn't the fanciest part of town, I don't recall it as being a particularly bad part of town or anything like that. I think the safety considerations are just good advice anywhere. Since you spoke of Spring Break, I'm assuming that you are probably at the oldest a high school student, and that most likely at least your Dad will probably be with you. With the two of you there during the daylight hours you should be just fine. Another location in Pinole would be to follow the directions above and turn right when you get to San Pablo Avenue. Follow San Pablo Avenue about a mile or so and turn left on Tennant Avenue, then follow the road to the end at the bay front and the old SP tracks. In doing so you will go under the old Santa Fe as well. To get back to the Interstate from there, just reverse your course but stay on Tennant instead of turning on San Pablo Avenue -- while it will turn into Pinole Valley Road it will run you right back to the Interstate (and take you right past my old elementary school [swg]). Also, dldance and rudyrockville have some good suggestions, but as far as Martinez is concerned taking BART to Concord and then taking the bus to Martinez (and back) is going to eat up a lot of your day. Have Fun! Hope this was of some help. TrummyandElla Reply Edit ericsp Member sinceMay 2015 5,134 posts Posted by ericsp on Tuesday, March 8, 2005 12:57 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD You might consider Martinez. You can reach it by taking BART from Oakland to Concord, and taking a bus from Concord to Martinez. There is a wharf next to the ex SP station in Martinez where you can photograph trains. You can also see trains crossing the Carquinnez Strats about 1-1/2 miles away. Also there is some street running in the vicinity of Jack London Square. Maybe not anymore. The Interstate 680 bridge is immediately on one side. I know I have heard of putting another bridge immediately on the other side. I do not know if this has been built yet. "No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld) Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, March 8, 2005 7:15 AM A little trip to the Feather river canyon & Donner pass I think you will find quite rewarding. [:o)] QUOTE: Originally posted by Noah Hofrichter My family will be traveling to San Francisco to visit relatives over my Spring break from school in about 2 weeks. We are getting a rental car, and my Dad promised that I could have at least half a day to railfan in the imediate area, Oakland, San Fran, ect.. I have Kalmbach's Guide to North American Railroad Hotspots, and they recomend Pinole California, about 13 miles to the South of Oakland. But I was still wondering, does anyone else know of any good spots with in 20 miles of San Francisco and Oakland? If you could provide exact directions or a Mapquest map to the area it would greatly help me, We know the basic area but not alot about it. I would prefer just the lines that have at least 3 or 4 trains an hour, so I can see the most in the time that I'll have(a few hours). I appreciate any answers that you can give, I want to make the best out of the situation. Noah Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Noah Hofrichter Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: Reedsburg WI (near Wisconsin Dells) 3,370 posts Posted by Noah Hofrichter on Tuesday, March 8, 2005 3:38 PM TrummyandElla, Thanks for the second location tip. It doesn't sound far from the other area, we'll have to check that out too. It's good to know we won't have to worry two much about the area then as well. And thanks to everyone else, I will most definately check out these other locations I appreciate the tips much. Noah Click the image above to visit my website, Badger Rails. My Model Railroad Club's website: http://sandhousecrew.webng.com Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Tuesday, March 8, 2005 3:52 PM You might consider taking a trip to Stockton, where the tower used to be. It's not as far as Donner or the canyon and you will surely see a lot more trains. This is where the BNSF(and Amtrak) to Richmond crosses the UPs north(roseville) south line through the valley. Very busy spot. Reply RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Tuesday, March 8, 2005 10:04 PM This is for ericsp. You are right. I looked at a slide I shot back in 1993 of the Amtrak California Zephyr crossing the Carquinnez Straits. The I 680 bridge is downstream from the SP's bridge over the Carquinnez Straits, but it is much higher than the SP bridge so you can see the train(s) crossing the bridge. Because of the differences in height the SP bridge is visible from the Martinex wharf or marina, and if I am right it has a lift span which is normally open because of the heavy ship traffic. Reply MP57313 Member sinceJune 2001 From: L A County, CA, US 1,009 posts Posted by MP57313 on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 12:51 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by dldance You may also want to visit the CalTrans station next to the new baseball stadium in SF. Lots of commute trains. I like this idea. I last rode CalTrain about 3 years ago (well before the Baby Bullets came). There are maybe 40 round-trips a day on the Peninsula line...enough frequency that if you choose to ride you won't have to wait long! And the fares are subsidized ... won't put a big dent in the wallet. If you are interested in freights you will need to travel to the southern area of the line, below Santa Clara {see the SP article/photo in the March '05 trains}. If you want to see some older trains, check out Sunol, just off I-680 near Niles Canyon. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,063 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 3:02 AM Is the Napa Valley Wine Train running? That is older equpment, the ex D$RGW ex-NP equipment from the Denver Ski Train? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 11:10 AM Noah: You're welcome. Have a good time. TrummyandElla Reply Edit mloik Member sinceJanuary 2002 437 posts Posted by mloik on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 11:45 AM Noah, You might also want to consider taking CalTrain down to the San Jose Diridon Station. There, you'll see Amtrak's Coast Starlight, Amtrak California trains to Sacramento, CalTrain, and Altamont Commeuter Express (ACE), in addition to UP freights. CalTrain has a small service facility there, with GP7/9's (I think that's what they are) and a caboose in CalTrain paint. Regards, Michael Reply Noah Hofrichter Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: Reedsburg WI (near Wisconsin Dells) 3,370 posts Posted by Noah Hofrichter on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 4:06 PM Michael, I rode the CalTrain down to San Jose once about a few years ago when we went to the National Model railroad Convetion. I think it was 1998, could be wrong though. It was a really fun ride though, it was the first time I'd ever taken any sort of Commuter trains. We are going to look into taking Amtrak Somewhere, just for the heck of taking it somewhere. We went on Amtrak up to Sacramento(SP?) the last time we were there, three years ago. Went to the railroad museum, and it was really fun. Thanks again for everybody's advice, I'll look into all of it. Noah Click the image above to visit my website, Badger Rails. My Model Railroad Club's website: http://sandhousecrew.webng.com Reply harpwolf Member sinceMarch 2005 40 posts Posted by harpwolf on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 5:27 PM I'm unclear -- will you have the car, or will you not? First, no offense but forget about Feather River or Donner, they are much too far away. So is Stockton. Bay Area traffic is nasty and Sacramento is worse. You could lose your whole day stuck in traffic. No need anyway -- plenty to see, even in this rail-sparse town. I realize this is too sophisticated for one message, so I'm going to write 3 more messages: - If you don't have a car, and you like public transit. - If you don't have a car and prefer mainline railroads - If you do have a car Reply tpatrick Member sinceMarch 2002 From: Lakewood NY 679 posts Posted by tpatrick on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 7:18 PM Be sure to take your camera and get some good shots to post for us. And take a few with yourself in them. Years from now, those will be the ones you will treasure most. They will show you as you used to be. And believe me, the older you get, the harder it is to remember. BTW I have seen your website and you obviously know your way around a camera, so I trust anything you post will be good. Have a great time! Reply ericsp Member sinceMay 2015 5,134 posts Posted by ericsp on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 8:07 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by harpwolf I'm unclear -- will you have the car, or will you not? First, no offense but forget about Feather River or Donner, they are much too far away. So is Stockton. Bay Area traffic is nasty and Sacramento is worse. You could lose your whole day stuck in traffic. No need anyway -- plenty to see, even in this rail-sparse town. I was on Interstate 80 a few years ago on a Saturday and traffic was horrible just about the entire way, even in the country. "No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 8:10 PM How long will this thread run before someone mentions that Amtrak also runs between Oakland and Martinez? Maybe BART and the bus one way, and Amtrak the other will give a railfan more variety in his day out. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 8:41 PM The Golden Gate Railway Museum at Hunters Point Naval Shipyard will rent you a locomotive. Open weekends 10 - 5 and M-F by appointment. ggrm.org Reply Edit harpwolf Member sinceMarch 2005 40 posts Posted by harpwolf on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 8:44 PM If you don't have a car and you like public transit: It's all about San Francisco :) We have more forms of rail transit than even Philly. Go to Powell St. BART, go through the open-air underground area to the tourist store that sells 1-day or 3-day Muni Passports. ($5-10.) Those work on cable cars, streetcars, trolley buses and diesel buses. Get a Muni Map too. Try to pre-order one by mail if you can. The bad part of town is the southeast corner, Bay View, Hunters Point, Vistacion valley etc. No reason to go there really. If you pay a cash fare on Muni, ALWAYS ask for a transfer and keep it. Some Muni lines are Proof of Payment and you'll pay a hefty fine if stopped and you don't have a transfer or pass. You get unlimited transfers until the time on the transfer. Bus drivers are more generous with transfer time than the Muni faregates in the underground, which don't take dollar bills. Some underground stations are shared by BART and Muni. BART people can't help you with Muni and vice versa. If you use a tranfer or pass in the underground, you need to find a manned station-agent booth. Here are some excellent Muni Tourist routes. 3 hours, mixed-mode. - Start at Embarcadero/Market, take the California Street cable car to Van Ness. - Walk one block north, take the westward 1 California trolleybus to Arguello. - 33 Stanyan southward through the Haight, around the trolleybus switchback to Castro Street. - 24 Divisadero trolleybus southward to Church Street. - J Church streetcar northward over Mission Dolores to Market. Good eats. - F Market historic streetcar eastward to Embarcadero. Rail + walking, 3 hrs: From any underground station, - L-Taraval westward to 46/Taraval. Walk to the beach. Bundle up, our beaches are cold. - Walk 1.5 miles north to Judah St. Streets in the Sunset are ABC in sequence: "A"nza "B"alboa "C"abrillo" etc. You're going from "T"araval to "J"udah. - Take N-Judah eastward back to your starting point. Good eats in the 9th/Irving neighborhood. All Rail, 2-3 hours assuming lines: - Any cable car from Powell/Market. Lines can be long. - Enjoy the Fishermans Wharf area, then walk to Jefferson and Jones. - Take the F-Market streetcar either back to Powell/Market; done. - Optionally, stay on the F-Market its entire length. - Go down the underground stairs on the west side of Castro/Market and take the Muni Metro downtown to Powell St. Station. Add some BART, 1.5 hours: - J-Church from a downtown station to Balboa Park. - Go into the BART station. Take BART back to your origin point. Extra fare applies, $1.25. Very boring ride, all underground. For more on BART, see my "No car, prefer heavy railroads" posting. A word on food: San Francisco food is amazing. Everything from 5-star dining to walk-up fast food. Try them! If you're at 9th and Irving, don't eat at Burger King. Eat at Park Chow, Pluto's or House of Nanking. How to find them? Stop people on the street and ask. Please don't go home with a stomach full of Denny's. Reply harpwolf Member sinceMarch 2005 40 posts Posted by harpwolf on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 8:49 PM If you don't have a car and prefer mainline railroads: Unfortunately the Bay Area isn't very good for heavy rail. There are only two crossing diamonds in the entire Bay Area -- Niles Junction Fremont, and Church/Market streetcar crossing in San Francisco! Amtrak, CalTrain and BART are the triumvirate. CalTrain runs down the Peninsula from San Francisco to San Jose. Amtrak runs from San Jose north to Oakland, Richmond, Martinez and points beyond. BART runs from Richmond and Oakland to San Francisco and all over the East Bay. CalTrain is "Proof of Payment". Learn how Proof of Payment works before boarding a CalTrain, or you may get a hefty fine. It's worth it to check schedules on CalTrain, though they nominally run every half hour. There is some amazing trackwork on CalTrain to accomodate the Baby Bullets. The joint BART-CalTrain station at Millbrae is a sight. If you want to see out the ends of the cars (engines are on the south end), you need the older Chicago style gallery coaches. The newer style octagon-cars block the front window, and are used on the Baby Bullets and some locals. Amtrak runs 6-8 Capitols a day between San Jose and Oakland. Some are buses -- watch the schedule. The Coast Starlight runs in this corridor too but it's usually several hours late in each direction so it's sheer luck if you catch it. Let's talk about a couple key on-foot transit links. From Downtown SF to "downtown" Caltrain station. - From Powell/Market, walk 1/2 block to 4th Street. (Old Navy) - Walk down 4th Street (check out the Metreon) 7 blocks (1 mile) to Townsend. Take the 15/30/45 bus if you wish. Do not take the 15X! - You're right near Pacific Bell Park by the way. From Jack London Square to BART. - Find Broadway (Barnes & Noble) and walk up Broadway 11 blocks to BART. So. Let's look at some tours. Feel free to reverse them. Basic Tour. - Go to CalTrain and ride to San Jose Diridon. - Ride Amtrak to Jack London Square, Oakland. Jack London Square is the ultimate Bay Area trainwatching spot, whether or not you have a car. Shop books at Barnes & Noble, sip coffee at Starbucks and saunter over to the tracks everytime you hear a whistle, which is every 20 minutes or so. Fish in a barrel :) - Follow Broadway 11 blocks to BART, Ride BART from Oakland to Powell Street, fare $2.55. - Optional: Stay on BART to Balboa Park. Ride J Church streetcar to Powell Street. Bigger Tour. - Go to CalTrain and ride to San Jose Diridon. - Ride Amtrak to RICHMOND. Beware, neighborhood is very dangerous. - Ride BART from Richmond to Powell Street. The BART line is more interesting than the additional Amtrak mileage. Grand Tour. - Go to CalTrain and ride to San Jose Diridon. - Ride Amtrak to Martinez. - Use "County Connection" buses to get to Concord or North Concord BART. Plan this. - BART to Powell Street San Francisco. The additional Amtrak and BART mileage are amazing. Very worth it. California State Railroad Museum out-and-back. - Take BART to Richmond, or use Amtrak's shuttle buses to Emeryville. - Amtrak to Sacramento. - 3 block walk to the California State Railroad Museum and Old Sacramento. - Reverse to get home. Railfanning BART. BART charges $4.40 to ride around their system and exit the same station you entered. However some station pairs are so close to each other that you can exit the next station and pay $1.25. But after 3 hours, the faregates will lock you out, and you'll have to explain to the station agent how it took you 3 hours to get from Powell to Montgomery :) - Concord/Bay Point line is excellent, scenic, some freeway median running, a tunnel through a mountain, and runs by Concord BART yards. - Fremont line is above ground, straight as an arrow, parallels UP mainline, South Hayward BART yards. - Dublin line doubles the Fremont line then is all freeway-median over a mountain pass. - Richmond line is about half underground but has some amazing bridge views in El Cerrito. - Airport/Millbrae line is deadly dull, mostly underground. Don't waste your time. Railfanning San Jose VTA light rail. VTA light rail ties into CalTrain at Mountain View and Tamien. It doesn't connect at San Jose Diridon - YET - but there's a free shuttle bus from Diridon to Downtown San Jose. It is also Proof of Payment! You can use VTA Light Rail to add spice to a Caltrain-Amtrak transfer in San Jose. - Bail off Caltrain in Mountain View instead of San Jose. - Make a direct transfer to VTA Light Rail. - Ride past Great America to Lick Mill station. - Double back on foot to the Santa clara Amtrak station, under the overpass, about 2 blocks. - Take Amtrak from there. Reply harpwolf Member sinceMarch 2005 40 posts Posted by harpwolf on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 9:00 PM Railfanning San Francisco, and you have a car. Aside from transit, most trains are in the East Bay, though Caltrain can be railfanned, and you can check out Muni's new construction on Third Street (bad neighborhoods though). Not much of interest on the other side of the Golden Gate bridge unless you're a Northwestern Pacific fan. Jack London Square is an amazing trainwatching spot. Emeryville has an equivalent: the Border's across from the Emeryville Amtrak station. Sip tea, watch trains. Eat at the Emeryville Public Market. Follow the line north to Berkeley, Albany, El Cerrito if you like. Avoid the residential parts of Richmond - very bad part of town - but there are plenty of rail yards on the industrial west side of town near I-580. San Pablo can be a bit dicey. Pinole is nice. Now if you want to see interesting lines, that's another story. Yes, go to Pinole. But get some maps and take special note of the Santa Fe line from Pinole to Martinez. It parallels Highway 4. That is very worth railfanning, especially because of the Rio Grande style mountain running on the east side of the Christie tunnel, the longest tunnel in the Santa Fe system. Not to mention the giant steel bridge over Alhambra Ave. While we're in Martinez there's plenty of trainwatching to do, of course, and don't forget SP's Carquinez Strait bridge. Call 510-817-1717 to check on traffic conditions. Martinez is less than 45 minutes from San Francisco but traffic can more than double this. You might want to drop down to Pleasanton on 680, and check out Niles Canyon, Highway 84. It has a pretty Union Pacific line with several tunnels, but it also has the original Southern Pacific line into the Bay Area. SP abandoned it and took the rail with them. The county bought it and leased it to a volunteer group, the Niles Junction Railway, who has put nearly 10 miles of the line back down! Complete with three brand-new grade crossings and two new bridges over Mission Boulevard in Fremont. They run public train trips a few times a month. While you're there you could check out Niles Junction, which a lot of Amtrak and ACE trains use. (ACE is the 3-trains-a-day commuter train between Stockton and San Jose.)West to the Amtrak station, then west to Newark Junction where the Amtrak and ACE trains turn south. A little north is the Dumbarton rail bridge, which parallels the Dumbarton highway bridge ($3 toll). The Dumbarton line crosses the bay and joins the CalTrain mainline at Redwood City. No trains use the bridge; the west end caught fire and burned. (it's behind another bridge.) Someday we might see ACE trains rolling into San Francisco. Farther south in Santa Cruz, there's a lightly used Southern Pacific line through downtown and the Santa Cruz boardwalk. This extends about 10 miles west out Highway 1, which has no other rail along it, but is a stunning scenic view all the way back to San Francisco. The line also goes north out of Santa Cruz through some really interesting mountain running to Felton, where a tourist railway operates that line and a narrow-gauge line in the Santa Cruz mountains. Very pretty stuff. I'm hesitant to recommend doing a Martinez-Santa Cruz circle tour unless you have a lot of time. Do keep an eye on traffic if you get too far out. Have maps, look for alternatives. There are some very pretty back-roads between Martinez and Orinda. If you're a AAA member, our AAA will give you good maps. AAA is at Hayes/Van Ness in the City. Reply Noah Hofrichter Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: Reedsburg WI (near Wisconsin Dells) 3,370 posts Posted by Noah Hofrichter on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 9:10 PM Harpwolf, We will most definately have a Car, otherwise it might just be to hard to do any railfanning. But yes we will have a car. And I promise I will give a full report Once I get home. I just hope It's sunny the day we go about the area. Noah Click the image above to visit my website, Badger Rails. My Model Railroad Club's website: http://sandhousecrew.webng.com Reply harpwolf Member sinceMarch 2005 40 posts Posted by harpwolf on Thursday, March 10, 2005 1:09 PM Yeah I forget, most railfans pack a lot more gear than I do :) Jack London is the place to be. Park under Border's or across from the theater. It's the same train density all the way up the bayshore, so you can find alternate views at Emeryville, Berkeley (I-80/University), Richmond Blvd/Giant Hwy, Pinole or Crockett (C&H Sugar Plant). It's up to you how much of I-80 you want to suffer. Try to have 3 people in your party so you can use the carpool lane 5-10a and 3-7p. Martinez is beyond your 20 mile limit but pretty cool. Alternate route back from Martinez: 680 to 24, less ugly than I-80 most days. You can also check out CalTrain in San Francisco, it's right off the Bay Bridge. Fifth/Townsend Street is a good vantage, as is 16th and 22nd Street. Don't go much south of Army street though, bad part of town. Email me a postal address and I'll send you some maps. Reply Noah Hofrichter Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: Reedsburg WI (near Wisconsin Dells) 3,370 posts Posted by Noah Hofrichter on Thursday, March 10, 2005 5:28 PM I think I've been to Emeryville before now that you mention it. We took Amtrak up to Sacremento. I don't remember much as far as Freight traffic, just that our train was two hours late. Is there alot of freight traffic there as well as Amtrak? I got to take a better look at your posts today, and I appreciate them alot. I do want to know though, can you give me a better description of where the Christie tunnel is? Can you get very close to the Mouth of the tunnel? I don't get to see many Tunnels in Wisconsin, and this would definately be something to see. Also, where is the bridge over Alhambra Ave. What town is it in? Anything else you can tell me about the line North of Pinole would be good, as this is probably where we will end up. Also, where is the best spot in Jackson square to railfan from, or is most of the area good? I've looked at some mapquest maps and this and Emeryville look like a few other good spots. Noah Click the image above to visit my website, Badger Rails. My Model Railroad Club's website: http://sandhousecrew.webng.com Reply bowlerp Member sinceMarch 2002 78 posts Posted by bowlerp on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 3:57 PM Along the lines of traffic, would you say it is feasible to travel by car from the town of Napa to catch the mornig Coast Starlight south at Martinez (on a Tuesday morning after Memorial day)? Hertz has a rental car dropoff right inthe station there. If Coast Starlight departs Martinez at 7:34 a.m. , what ungodly time should we leave Napa to arrive for a comfortable departure on the Starlight? Thanks, this will help our planning immensely! Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD You might consider Martinez. You can reach it by taking BART from Oakland to Concord, and taking a bus from Concord to Martinez. There is a wharf next to the ex SP station in Martinez where you can photograph trains. You can also see trains crossing the Carquinnez Strats about 1-1/2 miles away. Also there is some street running in the vicinity of Jack London Square.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
QUOTE: Originally posted by Noah Hofrichter My family will be traveling to San Francisco to visit relatives over my Spring break from school in about 2 weeks. We are getting a rental car, and my Dad promised that I could have at least half a day to railfan in the imediate area, Oakland, San Fran, ect.. I have Kalmbach's Guide to North American Railroad Hotspots, and they recomend Pinole California, about 13 miles to the South of Oakland. But I was still wondering, does anyone else know of any good spots with in 20 miles of San Francisco and Oakland? If you could provide exact directions or a Mapquest map to the area it would greatly help me, We know the basic area but not alot about it. I would prefer just the lines that have at least 3 or 4 trains an hour, so I can see the most in the time that I'll have(a few hours). I appreciate any answers that you can give, I want to make the best out of the situation. Noah
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by dldance You may also want to visit the CalTrans station next to the new baseball stadium in SF. Lots of commute trains.
QUOTE: Originally posted by harpwolf I'm unclear -- will you have the car, or will you not? First, no offense but forget about Feather River or Donner, they are much too far away. So is Stockton. Bay Area traffic is nasty and Sacramento is worse. You could lose your whole day stuck in traffic. No need anyway -- plenty to see, even in this rail-sparse town.
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