Anyone hear Norman Minata talk Amtrak on National Public Radio?

[Anonymous]

He wants to pay for the maintance of the track but the operation of the trains would be contracted out? Okay here while we are at it lets just fund the US Post Offices Buildings and contract out the actual Mail Delivery to Federal Express or UPS? Does he know that Amtrak Rents track from Freight railroads at exorbante Rates?

[AntonioFP45]

Problem now is that ridership on all of the long distance trains has jumped! His plans call for the elimination of most of the long distance routes!

He is very determined to ensure that Amtrak no longer be funded as in the past, in other words, effectively killing long distance service. Hopefully enough senators and the public will push for the defeat of Mineta's plan.

Remember, with very few exceptions, once an Amtrak train is eliminated it doesn't come back! With interstate gridlock on the rise Amtrak is viable. And please don't tell me to fly or catch Greyhound! My last flight was a bumpy nightmare on a 737. I drove the buses part-time for 10 years. They get stuck in traffic too!

[Anonymous]

States and multi-country agencies will have no choice but to contract for commuter corridors. Which will bust their budgets and wreck their current commuter rail projects. But no one wants to operate long distance routes.

[jeaton]

The NPR news anchors at least try to maintain an objective attitude, but I detected a tone implying something like "Are you nuts?" from the interviewer.

Meanwhile Mineta continues to chant the rant. Either Mineta and the other Bush people are incredably STUPID or they believe that if they keep singing the same old song, eventually every enough people will suspend their disbelief. At that point, regional and long distance passenger service can die and the administration can blame the individual states for the failure of the "plan".

Here is the really stupid part of the whole thing. The administration is willing to pony up 1 1/2 to 2 billion bucks as there share of the cost of a reformed system, as long as the states that want passenger service go with a dollar for dollar match. Fat chance that any of the states have anything close to that to spare.

As for the "reformed" service being any more cost efficient than the present set-up? Anybody that believes that wouldn't have the business knowledge to set up a lemonade stand.

Jay

[vsmith]

Remember this is the same Administration that believes if you tell a lie for long enough, people will believe it...

[conrailman]

On Fox News Channel today, they was a lady said that Gas Prices are going up to 4.00 a gallon in the next 3 years.[V]

[vsmith]

Even though I trust Fox-News about as far as I could pick up one of their cameras and throw it, that wouldnt surprise me.

We are not the only ones guzzling up the gas anymore, China is the "Elephant in the Living Room" that everyone in the energy department is trying to ignore and hope it will go away. But as China's demand for gas goes up, we are going to end up in an economic war with them for fuel....and of course NO ONE in our current administration will even admit to it because its bad for business.


We'll all just drive Hydrogen cars!!!


of course those are about 20 years down the road.....

[Anonymous]

Here's link to NPR, so you can hear Mineta for yourself.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4522363

[Modelcar]

...Speaking of gas prices, they went to $2.08 for unleaded regular here in central Indiana today.....and as for Mineta he has not been a supporter of Amtrak...and simply a yes man for the Bush adminstration. We all know how that adminstration feels about any part of Amtrak. The sooner they can effect it's bankruptcy the better.

[Wdlgln005]

I'm in Nashville and I noticed gas going up 10cents TODAY!
The gas co is going nuts. Fill while you can. Here we go again!
Shell gas @ 1.90

We wanted penny gas/Amtrak tax when Bush1 was president, would have provided 1bil per year, instead we got nothing.
Clinton talked a good game, but we got nothing.
Let's face it, all we get is newer diseasels pulling 20yr old rolling stock.
The crash in the swamp (Mobile) was over 10yrs ago. all we got was a program on National Geo channel. They like disasters. They found an 80yr old bridge, designed as a swing bridge, with no attachment from the steel beam to the bridge pier. The swing bridge gears had never been installed.

I'm getting tired of this broken old record where Amtrak is concerned. We know what needs to be done. Nobody wants to do anything. Let the system die.
Let's see who cares?

[jeaton]

Perhaps not now, but if you live long enough, you may find that long distance travel by plane, bus or car may become a difficult, if not impossible mode of travel for you. Perhaps you won't care that your world has shrunk to a few miles from your home or that your view of anything beyond of the county line is thrugh hyper space. Then I am sure you won't care about transportation alternatives. On the other hand, millions may.

Jay

[spbed]

Sorry not I [:)]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dunkirkeriestation

He wants to pay for the maintance of the track but the operation of the trains would be contracted out? Okay here while we are at it lets just fund the US Post Offices Buildings and contract out the actual Mail Delivery to Federal Express or UPS? Does he know that Amtrak Rents track from Freight railroads at exorbante Rates?

[Anonymous]

From the department Weapons of Mass Destraction..."No rail passenger left behind."

Mitch

[edbenton]

For George W unless it involves the military and or any of his corparte feinds any one remember ENRON he is not interested in supporting it. ENRON was the biggest push for deregulating the power industry in TXand California and they really showed how they could mess it up. I be honest with you Kenneth Lay needs to be hung for waht he did to his company. He took a good company and ran it into the ground all in a bid to get as rich as he could and ***ew everbody else. Kind of like another republican named Charles Keating the guy who singley handily started the Savings and Loan scandal in the mid 80's. He got away scott fee while alot of banks went under and millions of people lost everything they had saved over the years. I did some research and that scandal cost the US goverment 200 Billion. So what does this have to do with the topic. I am basicly saying is this every republican president since Ronny Regan has been out to cru***he middle class and any thing that has to do with maybe having any good for the regular people. The rich can afford to fly anywhere they want on their private Gulfstream Jets. The rest of us however would be stuck on overcrowded highways if they get their way and kill Amtrack. I know I am ranting but my parents lost almost everything they had in the S&L crisis and it hit me the hardest. I myself lost my college savings acct that was supposed to put me thru school.

[Sterling1]

I want to see this idiot hung up as a NAzi against rail. Guess What when we eliminate Amtrak we have our European allies laughing at us for being so d*** dumb. I am sure Putin may laugh at us for demolishing something that we can still hold on for national security.

[Sterling1]

Mineta is a worthless sucker
I think that there will come a day when the government realizes they were f******s.
If one wants to realive congestion in airways and highways, go rail instead and immediately.

[Anonymous]

Well they certany would **** off there fellow constiantes in DC who take the Amtrak to work. I would not show my face for a awile in the congressional soup kitchen for a awile if was to blame for everyone being late

[daveklepper]

I think the main way to hit back is to ask?

Have our ridden any of Amtrak's long distance trains?

Have you spoken to the passengers?

What gives you the right to say whether they are essential or not?

Especially if you have not bothered to investigate and if those who report to you have not bothered.

[jabrown1971]

A sure way to bring the adminsitration to terms with Amtrak...............move the troops on it. After all we can continually cough up 8.2 billion to keep Iraq safe! Safe from what? Us, no weapons here, no weapons there, must be in Iran, let's look there next. This will be the one time that the people you helped elect, or not, will come through for you. Congress and the Senate will not let it die.........too many policitical futures at stake. Let's face it, in four years Bush heads to retirement........his days are numbered and no one who HAS to get reelected would risk the policiticl suicide that would be the death of Amtrak. Again I say more frequent and better service is a key. Serve the markets that no one else will. Greyhound has cut back on Northern tier service from Minneapolis to Seattle, down to one bus a day from three. Good luck catching a plane to Kalispell, MT, if Amtrak dies we will be back to cars and if I-90 is closed due to weather, we will see you in the spring.

[siberianmo]

You know, when the emotions are removed from many of the posts, there's some good information here! No - I didn't listen to NPR today, so I missed it. He was speaking in my part of the world (St. Louis) as I understand.

We have been trying for DECADES to get a first class facility constructed - multi modal - that will feature Amtrak. It supposedly is about to happen - MetroLink (St. Louis' light rail) - Greyhound and Amtrak will share the place.

How ironic that this talk of discontinuing federal funding should come at a time when St. Louis is finally getting of the dime with the multi-modal facility! Before anyone jumps my case about this - I have some background with rail transportation in this area - and have a bit of history on my side with this. To get anything done positively in this metropolitan area is equivalent to the proverbial mouse trying to make love with an elephant! It probably COULD happen - but chances are it will not!

Amtrak is simply something that hasn't worked for so many reasons that anyone who has followed it from inception surely cannot blame it on one President or one administration. Get real. This has been going on for decades - I repeat, decades.
My blame goes squarely to the Congress. Yep - those critters are the ones we send to WashDC to do OUR bidding. Think it's working??? Certainly NOT with passenger railroad long term planning, funding and fair share of the subsidies.

We are not all that far away from a world-wide fossil fuel dilemma. Aside from the fact that OPEC has the western world by the "short hairs," that stuff will surely run out one day. Then what? No national plan to deal with it - energy, transportation, etc. Shameful to say the least.

Well - I'm gonna go the basement and ENJOY my model railroad!

See ya.

[Modelcar]

...I caught part of Mineta's talk just a few days ago on C-Span and he was in front of Transportation people....and it was more spin and double talk and the camera would switch to audience for reaction while he was talking and some were shaking their heads in wonderment...Smoke and mirrors stuff, once more....
Item: Reg. unleaded here in Muncie went to $2.15 today.

[Paul Milenkovic]

Unleaded gas may be $2.15 and climbing -- and that is even more the reason why Amtrak is in serious, serious trouble this time around. Amtrak per-passenger energy consumption is higher than -- SUVs. The source is http://cta.ornl.gov/data/index.shtml -- I know a lot of right-wing groups have been ragging on Amtrak for years, but this source is the Department of Energy. Go to http://cta.ornl.gov/data/chapter2.shtml and click on Table 2.11 (you need either Microsoft Office or the free Open Office alternative to read the Excel spread sheets) -- this gives the big picture on auto-air-rail and a breakdown into intercity rail (Amtrak) and commuter and transit rail operations. You can be mad at me for sharing this, but this information is going to come out because there are Amtrak critics who have been sharpening their knives for years.

Also browse to http://cta.ornl.gov/data/chapter9.shtml and check out Table 9-12 for Amtrak stats. The BTUs per passenger mile hit a low of about 2500 in the early 1990's (50 passenger miles per gallon -- better than driving by yourself in a fuel-efficient car) and have rebounded to 4800 in 2002 (about 26 MPG). Also, from the figures you can get that the average train-car occupancy has hit a low of 14 people.

I wonder what is going on. My guess is that they have those heavy Acela trains, and they have ramped up service on the NEC with "electric-guzzler" trains without a co-measurate increase in ridership. Ridership may be up on all fronts, but load factor is down. If someone can point me at a breakdown in Amtrak stats between NEC, other corridor, and long-distance trains, I am really interested.

The story I hear is that the long-distance trains have a high load factor. I saw on a Web site related to Via that long distance trains do OK on fuel -- a long distance train car averages 4 MPG while a corridor train gets 2 MPG for each train car because there are more stops and higher speeds.

I am wondering if maybe the long distance trains do OK from a fuel economy basis based on lower speeds, fewer stops, and high load factor, while the NEC is the big energy-guzzling boondogle of nearly empty trains whizzing around. I also heard that depending on your accounting formula, long distance trains may just about break even while the NEC is nothing but a money (and an energy) pit.

So maybe the Bush Administration has it all backwards -- they should keep the long distance trains and dump the NEC -- heck the NEC goes through all all blue states anyway!

[AntonioFP45]

Guys,

Click on the link that TomTrains posted above. In listening to it carefully, Mineta thinks he has a realistic grasp regarding Amtrak when in reality he just doesn't have a clue!! He refers to trains that no one uses, can someone tell us which ones, please?
Even with those glasses ( I wear them too) he must have seen the figures that show rising ridership. As I've said before, the Florida to New York trains need to be longer like they were in the early 80s (15 cars easily) because they're often running at capacity.

And his comment that if a state doesn't support Amtrak, then the trains won't stop in it!!!!!! Did this guy grow up in a hut on a mountain?

Hopefully enough senators will turn up enough pressure to not let this idiotic proposal pass.

[jeaton]

Paul

You will find a great deal of data from Amtrak at amtrak.com Go to Press & Media and then Annual Reports or Other Reports. The latter includes the monthly reports which have passener and revenue data by train.

Other than that, maybe the report suggests SUV's should used instead of Amtrak?

[Paul Milenkovic]

SUVs are regarded as the Gold Standard of gas-guzzlerness, and when Amtrak's per passenger mile energy usage is higher than that of the SUV (light truck fleet) there is a problem.

That "trains are green" is something that has been touted for years. But I guess that autos and planes have been a moving target in that a lot of work has gone into making them more fuel efficient, and maybe they have finally caught up. While we could save a lot of gas if we didn't have so many people driving light trucks as their personal car, light trucks get better gas mileage than they once did.

Now trains require subsidy -- it is true in Europe -- and if trains are what they are -- a subsidized transportation mode that is really a skeleton network but that we keep around in case the pendulum swings back towards rail (come on guys, that is what you mean when you say that Mineta is an idiot for proposing to curtail Amtrak at a time when fuel prices are going through the roof).

If that is the case, Amtrak is or at least ought to be primarily a demonstration showcase of the rail mode. If you think that demonstration is a silly concept, lets go back to Senator Pell's original Pell Plan for the NEC -- the Boston Turbo Train, the NY-DC electric MU Metroliner, and the DC-Florida ride-in-your auto train concept that was never built. The Metroliner wasn't meant to be a sop to a foamers who wouldn't get in a plane -- it was meant to be an initial demonstration of what new (or up-powered old) tech could do for rail transport to lead to a rail rennaisance.

If that is the case, for crying out loud, run it a demonstration showcase of the rail mode. Double Amtrak passenger MPG from 50 to 100 to show people what can be done -- don't cut it from 50 to 26 MPG in the last 10 years. Ask for a subsidy (because it is after all a demonstration of what we could have if people weren't so stubborn about hanging on to their cars), but deliver some tech for that subsidy.

As to the burgeoning NY-Florida traffic, Amtrak is running a bunch of near-empty trains somewhere, someplace if their average car loading has gone from 20 passengers down to 14.

[gfjwilmde]

Mr Mineta couldn't carry my tool bag(let alone my 'other' bag too). He has no mechanical aptitude nor abilities what so ever(neither does any of Amtrak's managers). He's just Bush's puppet(I can't say really what I think he is)!! If Mineta had to do any actual railroad work, he wouldn't survive the day(maybe not even an hour).


GLENN
A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER AND MACHINIST!!!!
A R E A L AND DEVOTED AMTRAKER!!!!
A T R U E L Y DISSAPPOINTED AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[oltmannd]

That 14 passengers per car seems ridiculously low. Somethings not quite right. I rode Amtrak quite a bit in the late 70s to early 90s and load factors were almost never below 25% and most often 50% or better. 14 out of 60 is 23% and 14 out of 80 is 18%.

Maybe the number of cars includes mail and express? Avg cars per train has risen from 8 to 10 over time. Even that seems high. Most NEC trains are 6-9 cars long.

Are the Amtrak operate commuter rail operations included in here (e.g. MBTA)?

[oltmannd]

...also, the number of passenger cars in 1999 was 1300, but was 2800 in 2002? That's not right at all.

[Paul Milenkovic]

Don Oltmann:

I am really interested in the matter of Amtrak load factors and fuel economy because of the burgeoning debate. Various "right-wing Amtrak and rail critics" give numbers and arguments why rail doesn't measure up, but you have to run those articles "through a filter" because they have a political platform. I am trying to work off numbers from government agencies which should be at least neutral on this.

I followed jeaton's suggestion of going to the Amtrak Monthly Financial Statements, which is rough sledding because they are huge things to download and a lot of their spreadsheets are turned sideways. They place a big, big emphasis on riders (a "political" metric) and the sort of railroad operations numbers of passenger miles, load factors, train-car miles are buried someplace.

They seem to be reporting 55 percent summer load factors, about 45 percent year-round load factors -- that is great news because you can't push load factors much higher without really making Amtrak travel inconvenient and unavailable. But they were reporting an annual fuel/electric bill of 180 million dollars, and assuming they are paying a wholesale/before road tax fuel/energy price of about a dollar per gallon of gas equivalent, and dividing into their fiscal-year passenger miles, I came up with 25 passenger miles per gallon, which squares with the Oak Ridge boys (the ORNL-DOE report).

I want to keep working on getting better numbers because those numbers are key to answering Amtrak critics. How do the different types of train (long-distance, NEC, other corridor) do on fuel use, car-miles, passenger-miles load factor. The pro-Amtrak side needs hard numbers, not pro-train sentiments, and if the numbers are mixed, some favorable others unfavorable, we need to know what they are and face the facts.

[oltmannd]

Paul-

You are definitely barking up the right tree. While the rest of the transportation landscape in the US has gotten better over the past 30 years, Amtrak is more or less stagnant. Being able to figure out why, based on fact, is the key to figuring out what to do about it.

There are lots of things to look into. One, is why did Amtrak replace pefectly good 3000 HP locos with 4000 HP ones? The net result has been an overall increase in HP/ton without any commensurate reduction in trip times and most likely an increase in fuel consumption. Anecdotally, I rode the Empire Builder in 1973 and it used 4 F9s in the west and an E8 and 2 Fs in the east and ran on time the whole way to Minnesota (easbound before the MILW screwed it up). That's 5000-6000 HP for the train. Now they run with 8000 HP (minus a few hundred for HEP). The Lake Shore Ltd. used to run with a single SDP40F or a pair of F40s, now runs with a pair of 4000 HP units.

The PRR used to add and drop coaches in Phila in order to tailor train size to ridership and improve equip utilization. Where is that kind of thinking these days?

The Crescent carries sleepers all the way through between Atlanta and NO when they could turn them back and save two sleeper-days per trip. They pull a couple of coaches off to turn back short. Why not the sleepers? It would be a hassle to move the thru patrons out, but it could be done.

Amtrak tries to run standard Superliner consists. e.g. the Empire Builder has the same consist as the City of NO. Why? This is convenient for Amtrak, but certainly these trains aren't tuned for the market. Does the City of NO really need a Sightseer lounge car compared to the Empire Builder. Might you be better off putting the Sightseer lounges on routes where there is a lot of good, daylight scenery?

I think there's a whole lot of "its just too much trouble" that preventing efficient operation.

In frt RRing, the difference between making money and losing your shirt is just a whole bunch of details. The roads that sweat them out make money. Those that don't, don't do as well.

25 pass miles per gallon was good when cars got 12 mpg - but not so good these days.

And, I found that Amtrak says they have 2085 passenger cars, 516 of which are out of service (ouch!) That from their 2005-2009 stategic plan.