Newswire: ...engineer arrested. Something weird here or not?

[Anonymous]

From the trains.com newswire on Friday:

---Just before 10 a.m., Perry Richardson, 46, tried to drive across the tracks near his home when his van was struck by a CSX freight train traveling from Richmond, Va., to Cincinnati, Ohio. He was taken to a local hospital, but his condition was not immediately available. Sheriff Mark Smith says he believes Richardson simply made a bad judgment call - thinking he could beat the train.

But Smith also said the train's engineer, Michael Steven Spade, 53, of Sand Fork in Gilmer County, was arrested for refusing to give basic information such as his name and address. Spade was arraigned and released on bond. No hearing date has been set. CSX spokeswoman Jane Covington said the engineer should have cooperated, but she pointed out that it was a very stressful situation for him. Ghent is 73 miles southeast of Charleston, W.Va.---

Something seems weird here to me??? Your thoughts?

[Anonymous]

Something doesn't sound right here!

[wabash1]

if the law wants my name they can have it and the yard office i work out of not my real address. anything else they want will be directed to the roadforman or trainmaster.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

if the law wants my name they can have it and the yard office i work out of not my real address. anything else they want will be directed to the roadforman or trainmaster.

That's correct, they are entitled to my name and position in the company, but I am not required to give out my home address, phone number, drivers licence, or an ID other than a company ID.

In regards to anything else, as stated by wabash, I just direct it to my supervisors.

[edblysard]

As wabash and macguy have said, all the police can ask for is the basic info, and if they require any photo ID, all we are required to provide is our company ID, if fact, it is illegal for the police to demand your state drivers license, or even ask for the driver license number...the two are exclusive of each other, and nothing can be added to your driving record in regards to a locomotive accident.

I dont carry my wallet for that reason, my company ID is on a beaded chain around my neck, inside my shirt.
If the cops need any other info besides my name and company position, and the basics , I direct them to the trainmaster on duty.

All I can guess is this engineer was panic stricken, or POed at the cops and the guy he hit...after all, we only have one side of the story, we really dont know how the engineer was treated, so he may have felt not cooperating was the way to go...
Ed

[Anonymous]

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say the engineer did something wrong, I was just curious if this was normal or not. Thanks for the responses!

[mudchicken]

Mike V:

While it does happen on occassion, depending on the location where the incident happens, the cop who hauled off the engineer may be in hot water as well. His jurisdiction may have ended at the R/W line. The same issue may also extend to possession of the onboard event recorder. (Have seen Highway Patrol and sheriff's deputies demand the thing only to to have the railroad police tell them to back off. If they don't have a way of reading the data and interpretting what it means, why do they even bother to insist? I have also seen a city cop destroy the only recorder evidence, a PulseTape cassette in his zeal to gather evidence....probably works for the New York Times now.)[:-,]

[Anonymous]

As the other railroaders have said, only limited information need be given to local authorities. Railroads are Federal jurisdiction and only company officials or FRA or State DOT Rail officials can demand more than the very basics.

As MC points out, in extreme circumstances the cops involved might even be on the hook for false arrest or false imprisonment...

LC

[richardy]

Are engineers not required to carry their license to operate a locomotive?

Richard

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

Are engineers not required to carry their license to operate a locomotive?

Richard

Engineers must have their CERTIFICATION under 49CFR240 in their possession when operating a locomotive.

The CERTIFICATION is completely different from a state issued driver's LICENSE which has nothing to do with operating a locomotive (but can cause all sorts of confusion and problems for the engineer if used by the cops).

So, in answer to your question, No, an engineer is not required to carry a "LICENSE".

LC

[richardy]

Thanks LC, I knew it had nothing to do with the state drivers license. I thought I had read several years ago that engineers must have a Federal license but it must have been the certification.

Who issues the certification?

Richard

[Overmod]

Richard:

http://trains.rockycrater.org/cfr/49cfr240.php

[Anonymous]

There is no requirement to provide a driver's license to a police officer or a sheriff's deputy if you aren't operating a motor vehicle at the time you are questioned. I don't know what information rail road company ID's provide, but I assume they have the basics- name, and date of birth. That's enough to verify identity. It's also enough, most of the time, to insure there are no warrants outstanding against the individual questioned. (Locomotive engineers are not any different from other human beings... sometimes even they have something to hide.)

In the accident investigations I have participated in, I have seen people provide false identitites- usually because they are hiding something, like a suspended license or an outstanding warrant.
Criminals do this on a routine basis.

Frankly, in train vs. automobile accidents, I know enough to draw much the same conclusion this Sheriff did. Yet, to protect everyone in this case, it's important to have full and complete information on all participants. I would not be surprised if the engineer was not requested to take a Drager breathalyser test to determine if he was under the influence of alcohol at the time of the accident. (It's standard procedure.) He could refuse to take the test, of course; but his driving priveleges (as in automobile driving) would be suspended in this state (Alabama).

I empathize with locomotive engineers in most cases. I also empathize with truck drivers involved in fatalities where the fault is clearly the other participant in the accident. As a cop, it's not going to stop me from asking questions about causes of the accident. It's not going to stop me from attempting to rule out all contributory factors to an accident. One of those contributory factors would be the state of mind (impaired or not?) of the participants.

Investigators ask insensitive questions. Cops act insensitively at times. The reason is usually because the quicker information is obtained, the faster a case can be cleared.

I believe the engineer had nothing to hide in this case. As Ed said, we weren't there. It IS unusual behavior to refuse to even give your name to a police officer when you have been in an accident.

Erik

[daveklepper]

The Police have a job to do also.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

As the other railroaders have said, only limited information need be given to local authorities. Railroads are Federal jurisdiction and only company officials or FRA or State DOT Rail officials can demand more than the very basics.

As MC points out, in extreme circumstances the cops involved might even be on the hook for false arrest or false imprisonment...

LC

LC,

I am not challenging you on this one, but this does come as a bit of a surprise to me. I know a State reg or action cannot interfere with federal regs or decisions; but, I didn't know Feds had exclusive jurisdiction over rail property (as a State prosecutor, I convicted IDIOTS who vandalized rail cars every other day—the judge always said I had a particular zeal for that crime).

If an engineer gets in a fight with his trainmaster and deliberately runs him over (I know that is a difficult to imagine hypo, but it is too early for me to think of a better one), surely the State court would have jurisdiction, no?

I would also think the cops would need a verifiable address to reach someone who is a witness to an accident (or the crime of running a grade crossing). Criminals aren't the only ones who can be arrested; witnesses can too if their presence at trail is in question.

Anyway, I am just curious if you have any more information on your statement. I have always found dual-sovereignty interesting.

Gabe

[mudchicken]

Gabe: Have seen two separate incidents where "holier than thou" local constabulary has been forcibly removed from railroad property by railroad police (CA & CO)...Railway police are licensed federal level marshals with badges and guns. In both cases the railroad police were vindicated in their actions and there is at least one local CA cop out of a job. Usually the agencies work together, but relationships get strained and truth can be stranger than fiction. (Grandstanding Politicians barking orders at underlings at grade crossing incidents come to mind)

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Gabe: Have seen two separate incidents where "holier than thou" local constabulary has been forcibly removed from railroad property by railroad police (CA & CO)...Railway police are licensed federal level marshals with badges and guns. In both cases the railroad police were vindicated in their actions and there is at least one local CA cop out of a job. Usually the agencies work together, but relationships get strained and truth can be stranger than fiction. (Grandstanding Politicians barking orders at underlings at grade crossing incidents come to mind)

I have no doubt of the accuracy of your anecdotal evidence. However, I would be willing to bet that those were incidences when the local law conflicted with some form of federal ordinance. This is not uncommon. It is, however, uncommon for a state not to have any authority in its jurisdiction where there is no such conflict.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

Thanks LC, I knew it had nothing to do with the state drivers license. I thought I had read several years ago that engineers must have a Federal license but it must have been the certification.

Who issues the certification?

Richard

Richard-

The railroad issues certifications to its engineers under 49 CFR 240 et seq.

LC

[Anonymous]

=)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered

There is no requirement to provide a driver's license to a police officer or a sheriff's deputy if you aren't operating a motor vehicle at the time you are questioned. I don't know what information rail road company ID's provide, but I assume they have the basics- name, and date of birth. That's enough to verify identity. It's also enough, most of the time, to insure there are no warrants outstanding against the individual questioned. (Locomotive engineers are not any different from other human beings... sometimes even they have something to hide.)

In the accident investigations I have participated in, I have seen people provide false identitites- usually because they are hiding something, like a suspended license or an outstanding warrant.
Criminals do this on a routine basis.

Frankly, in train vs. automobile accidents, I know enough to draw much the same conclusion this Sheriff did. Yet, to protect everyone in this case, it's important to have full and complete information on all participants. I would not be surprised if the engineer was not requested to take a Drager breathalyser test to determine if he was under the influence of alcohol at the time of the accident. (It's standard procedure.) He could refuse to take the test, of course; but his driving priveleges (as in automobile driving) would be suspended in this state (Alabama).

I empathize with locomotive engineers in most cases. I also empathize with truck drivers involved in fatalities where the fault is clearly the other participant in the accident. As a cop, it's not going to stop me from asking questions about causes of the accident. It's not going to stop me from attempting to rule out all contributory factors to an accident. One of those contributory factors would be the state of mind (impaired or not?) of the participants.

Investigators ask insensitive questions. Cops act insensitively at times. The reason is usually because the quicker information is obtained, the faster a case can be cleared.

I believe the engineer had nothing to hide in this case. As Ed said, we weren't there. It IS unusual behavior to refuse to even give your name to a police officer when you have been in an accident.

Erik

Erik-

I'd love to be the attorney representing the engineer after an officer tried to make him take a Drager Alcotest. That is a clear cut civil rights violation. Federal Regulations clearly set forth how drug and alcohol testing is to be handled post accident for railroad crew members. FRA even provides the test kits which railroads must obtain from the FRA mandated lab. If the state were to take any action based upon a test or refusal there would be grounds for a significant lawsuit. I wouldn't want to be the officer in that case.

Keep in mind that I am someone who has been a police officer, prosecutor and locomotive engineer and has defended police officers in civil rights suits.

Also, officers need to keep in mind that the giving of information to police in these cases has resulted in engineers having driver's license and insurance issues more than once. So what would otherwise be a simple name and DOB request can create BIG problems. Unfortunately, there are plenty of engineers out there who have had run ins with the cops in their lives and don't have the patience or temperament to explain this to the police. Mix that with an officer who doesn't like to be told "no" and you have a potential for problems, like the one in this case.

The FRA has EXCLUSIVE jurisdiction over railroad safety. This has been long established in Statutes and Regulations and the courts. That means that even though the tracks run through a police officer's jurisdiction, what happens on those tracks including ALL railroad operations are beyond his jurisdiction and are the jurisdiction of railroad police and the FRA.

LC

[Anonymous]

MASTER TRAINER
SOMTHING SOUNDS FISHY!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

As the other railroaders have said, only limited information need be given to local authorities. Railroads are Federal jurisdiction and only company officials or FRA or State DOT Rail officials can demand more than the very basics.

As MC points out, in extreme circumstances the cops involved might even be on the hook for false arrest or false imprisonment...

LC

LC,

I am not challenging you on this one, but this does come as a bit of a surprise to me. I know a State reg or action cannot interfere with federal regs or decisions; but, I didn't know Feds had exclusive jurisdiction over rail property (as a State prosecutor, I convicted IDIOTS who vandalized rail cars every other day—the judge always said I had a particular zeal for that crime).

If an engineer gets in a fight with his trainmaster and deliberately runs him over (I know that is a difficult to imagine hypo, but it is too early for me to think of a better one), surely the State court would have jurisdiction, no?

I would also think the cops would need a verifiable address to reach someone who is a witness to an accident (or the crime of running a grade crossing). Criminals aren't the only ones who can be arrested; witnesses can too if their presence at trail is in question.

Anyway, I am just curious if you have any more information on your statement. I have always found dual-sovereignty interesting.

Gabe

Gabe-

See my response above. The case law is quite clear on the pre-emption in railroad safety matters by FRA under various acts including the Railroad Safety Act and the Interstate Commerce Commission Termination Act. As to criminal prosecution I'd guess there would be concurrent jurisdiction in most places I have prosecuted crimes against and occurring on railroad property before as well. However, grade crossing and trespasser incidents where the train crew is concerned is a very jealously protected zone.

LC

[BaltACD]

There is nothing quite as obnoxious as a minimally trained Local Cop, who thinks his minimal training has turned him into the personification of Chief Justice Rhenquist with a badge and gun.

[Rodney Beck]

Hi everyone my name is Rodney and I work for the BNSF as a conductor now I am a student engineer. In our rule book the only thing that we have to give the police is our name. I have learned fromthe above I was in a grade crossing accdent last August that killed a person. The police tried to make the engineer and I have a breathalizer test and we refused then we were threatened with arrest for not compling with law enforcement, then the trainmaster arrived on the sceen and told the police that they have no juristation over the crew, then the FRA showed up and mister city and county cop left madder than a cat falling in a swimming pool. It is a power play that the police try and yes the local police wanted to get on the locomotive to get the event recorder and was asked by the FRA if they knew how to read the data they said they could figure it out the FRA investigator told them to get off the railroad. Rodney

[Anonymous]

Rodney-

Another misconception of local police, that they can "figure out" how to read tapes or card type event recorders. Cops tend to think that their labs can do most anything for them. They only figure out too late that they are over their heads with railroads. Special equipment is required to read the data and special training is needed to understand it. Not rocket science, but unless you have the training and know somerthing about running trains, the tapes mean nothing...

LC

[Anonymous]

Local cops and deputies take an awful bum rap here.
I wouldn't dream of climbing up into a locomotive cab and taking an event recorder out. I don't even know where it is. I do know that there's no way my local investigators will be able to read the tape. We send that stuff off to the Alabama Bureau of Investigation, or the NTSB.

Alabama State troopers are trained in accident investigations and generally work with the railroads in investigations. Given that NTSB investigators or railroad police are usually several hours from the scene of a grade crossing accident, they usually end up doing Drager tests for review by investigators. Because alcohol does metabolise out of the human body fairly quickly, waiting around for someone to arrive in a few hours is a disservice not only to the engineer, but to the railroad and the investigators.

I have never run into a railroad cop or federal investigator who wasn't grateful about local cops doing basic investigation. Of course, we are trained to respect evidence sites- which would include the inside of the locomotive cab- and we try not to tromp through them. The local cops are the ones who are usually first on scene.

Think for a moment, though, about a local cop's juristiction. In my case, it's a rural county in Alabama. If I was faced by a Norfolk Southern cop ordering me off "his" property, I'd have a problem with that. The main reason is who signs his paycheck. He's not an officer who does law enforcement county wide; he is a company employee. It would not be an unusual thing to have that company employee "lose" or mishandle evidence, especially if it was evidence concerning the company .... and a defense attorney would have a field day.

I don't have a problem relinquishing a scene to a Federal agency; they have investigative resources far greater than mine. I don't have a problem relinquishing a scene to a DOT trained state trooper. When I come onto an accident scene, be it a two car fender bender, a rail-car collision, or the Queen Mary running down a sailboat, I am required- by law- to identify all participants. As stated before, that usually means no more than name and date of birth.

You guys need to think through actions before you stand on your "rights"- most of the questions cops ask you are going to clear you of any wrongdoing.

Erik

[Anonymous]

This is bothersome indeed, but it is very possible that the local cop that made the arrest was not familiar with federal railroad regulations that allowed railroad crews the right to limit the amount of personal information they disclose to local authorities. IN most jurisdictions, persons are required to give all basic personal information to the authorities in the event of a police investigation, so the cop probably assumed that this situation was no different, especially since it is not every day they deal with railroad grade crossing incidents in a small town.

If it was in fact an unjustified arrest, I am sure that the engineer will be cleared in short order.

[Anonymous]

[:(!][:(!][:(!] Sounds just like the lady cop that wanted to arrest me after the cement truck hit and derailed my train. She was adamant that I was going to the local hospital to give blood and urine samples. Once the federal investigators arrived she had to learn a whole new song and dance. [:D][:D][:D]

[richardy]

At most grade crossings (rails that were in place before the roadway came across), doesn't the property belong to the railroad with an easement granted by the railroad for the roadway to cross?

Richard

[Anonymous]

This has been informative to say the least. I would have never guessed how little power local police have in such an event. (or at least it would seem that way). However, I can also see where if I were a local police officer and the train crew was refusing my questions that I would normally ask at an accident scene would get suspicious and perhaps upset.
Maybe there needs to be better education or information exchange between the FRA and police agencies to improve the handling of grade crossing investigations, especially in the time right after the accident when the federal officials aren't there yet.