Since 1952, the east side of Sherman Hill (Wyo.) has been basically triple tracked, and in the 1980’s the west side also. But contemporary photos of non-Positive Train Control signals on Sherman Hill suggest something big may be in the works! Or, UP management may be stuck between a rock and a hard place, and don’t know what to do there.
This forum contributor suggests everyone keep an eye on Sherman Hill, because what the future will be there is not clear.
Wow! Nobody has anything to say!
How about this? Mothball Main 3 on the east and on the west and run trains right running. With PSR, there shouldn’t be that many trains anyway … What is UP waiting for? Old age to solve any dilemmas for them?
If the government limits train lengths, Main 3 could quickly be reopened.
Non Positive Train Control signal?
Jeff
jeffhergert:
Haste makes waste, they say! And that goes for posting too, and referred to old, target units.
While, it is my understanding, it is not necessary to erect new signals to install positive train control, UP usually does. In the Sherman Hill case, the old signal where widely left standing and operational. That suggests to at least me that UP hasn’t figured out the lessor of many evils yet. Or, they have something really big on the drawing board.
If you hear anything, let us know.
Thanks.
croteauddjeffhergert: Haste makes waste, they say! And that goes for posting too, and referred to old, target units. While, it is my understanding, it is not necessary to erect new signals to install positive train control, UP usually does. In the Sherman Hill case, the old signal where widely left standing and operational. That suggests to at least me that UP hasn’t figured out the lessor of many evils yet. Or, they have something really big on the drawing board. If you hear anything, let us know. Thanks.
Depending upon the character of the traffic being handled - lines either require PTC or the don't. If PTC is required, the carriers have found it more economical to install new signals and the electronics to operate them. If the traffic does not require the installation of PTC the carriers are more than happy to continue maintenance of the existing system.
The carriers have made decisions about the routing traffic over their various potential routings in accordance with PTC requirements.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
PTC is required when any of the following exist:
Does Sherman Hill meet any of these?
It was said that search light style signals were incompatible with PTC because they have moving parts that change the color.
They may not be the preferred type, and they be changing them out in many places, but they do work with PTC. We have a few still in operation. One such signal actually replaced a color light signal when they had just started installing PTC.
adkrr64 PTC is required when any of the following exist: Transport more than five million gross tons of traffic annually Transport hazardous materials that are poisonous or toxic by inhalation (PIH/TIH) Regularly provide intercity or commuter rail passenger transportation Does Sherman Hill meet any of these?
CSSHEGEWISCH adkrr64 PTC is required when any of the following exist: Transport more than five million gross tons of traffic annually Transport hazardous materials that are poisonous or toxic by inhalation (PIH/TIH) Regularly provide intercity or commuter rail passenger transportation Does Sherman Hill meet any of these? It would be safe to assume that the Sherman Hill line meets the first two criteria.
I believe that 5 MGT only applies if any TIH/PIH is handled. If a line handles 5 MGT, but doesn't have any TIH/PIH it doesn't require PTC. There are other possible waivers contained in the CFR, but Sherman Hill has PTC. I'm sure all the available routes see way more than 5 MGT and TIH/PIH goes over the line.
49 CFR § 236.1005 - Requirements for Positive Train Control systems. | Electronic Code of Federal Regulations (e-CFR) | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu)
Curious... has PTC that's in operation today turned out to be fail safe? Does it work as was hoped?
GrampCurious... has PTC that's in operation today turned out to be fail safe? Does it work as was hoped?
Like anything else - PTC is not the panacea those outside the industry think it is.
PTC is dependent upon the signal system of the carriers as it has been designed as an 'overlay' that has been appended to the existing signal system. Signal systems fail from time to time for a myriad of reasons, even when the signal system fails there are rules under which the carriers are still able to move trains at speeds and conditions less than in normal operations. Even when the signal system is working properly there are 'local switchng moves' that take place without the direct protection of the signal system (train occupies Main track and the power has made a pick up or set off at a yard and is returning to its train on the Main to make solid for departure.
Signals can be suspended in specific locations when the carrier is making track and signal changes at the location. After completion of the specific track changes the signal system must be fully tested to insure its proper operation before placing the signal systme back in operation.
There probably hundereds of other situations where movements are being made without PTC protection. Every advance in technology has its own pitfalls and quirks that have to be understood and worked around - nothing designed and built by humankind is foolproof.
(1) PTC only is in effect in limited areas by rule. The yellow press seem to think it is universal (it is not) ... The technology is not "on the Shelf" and is still evolving and developing at a huge cost. (Congress and the CBO totally blew that one) ... Hearsay on what PTC is and isn't continues to get worse and the general public is "lost".
(2) PTC has caused the elimination of turnouts that should not have been removed. There is all kinds of financial and legal grief over the issue.
When I was working (1977 - 1997) Norfolk Southern's 'R' Line from Columbia, SC to Augusta, GA handled three through freights in each direction daily. Also several local freights. This was a "secondary" main line. This line, approximately 90 miles, was (and is) dark territory. Originally timetable-and-train order dispatched. Later, the track warrant control system was implemented. Track speed was 49 MPH.
Several years ago I was surprised to learn this entire line had been downgraded to 25 MPH. Then, about a year ago I heard the true reason. Norfolk Southern, in its wisdom, decided that by simply reducing the maximum track speed to 25 MPH or less; they could avoid the tremendous expense of having to equip this line with any PTC installations.
croteaudd... How about this? Mothball Main 3 on the east and on the west and run trains right running. With PSR, there shouldn’t be that many trains anyway … What is UP waiting for? Old age to solve any dilemmas for them?
I aasume that track 3 is the new low gradient line constructed in the 1950s. It's only about half as steep at the older pair of tracks, and has a lower summit. Why would they mothball that line?
MidlandMike:
MidlandMike I aasume that track 3 is the new low gradient line constructed in the 1950s. It's only about half as steep at the older pair of tracks, and has a lower summit. Why would they mothball that line?
In today’s PSR environment of long trains, Main 3 on Sherman Hill is useless for meets and runarounds. Rearranging slightly the trackwork west of the tunnels would allow trains to not change biases, i.e., right running throughout and allow Main 3 to be mothballed. If you’ve ever watched the changing of biases at west Cheyenne, four tracks become single track and you might sense what I’m trying to convey!
Sherman Hill is not the only place UP faces dilemmas. Between Los Angeles and Chicago there are two routes, each with a dilemma of its own. Los Angeles to Salt Lake City is short sidings (6000 feet), except for extended ones for every third siding extended in the Drew Lewis era of the late 1980’s. Via El Paso and the Golden State Route, sidings are long but far apart, a few as much as 30 miles for a meet or runaround.
So, anyway UP goes to solve problems it ends up with a horrendous and costly bill! No wonder the target signals on Sherman Hill remain!
First it was Nikon that didn't know what it was doing and now it's UP. Super Crote needs to fly to the rescue...
I doubt that the "new" line will be mothballed anytime soon. Being better engineered than the older existing route will mean it's probably more important for heavy, long trains.
PSR doesn't mean every train is a monster. There's still a lot of what once was considered "normal" size. Sometimes they are even really small. Last trip I brought the daily Council Bluffs-Chicago manifest home, out of the Bluffs. I've had one once with over 300 cars. This one was only 30 cars.
Backshop First it was Nikon that didn't know what it was doing and now it's UP. Super Crote needs to fly to the rescue...
Backshop:
Nikon is clearly off topic. I can hardly wait till the government makes cameras around railroad tracks illegal!
Fly the rescue flag for UP? No way! I’m retired. I’m no Vena … Besides, all he has to do is change the word “yard” to “sorting facility,” and mean it!
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