The proposed Rail Safety Act in the Senate, the House version and NTSA address hotbox detection post East Palestine. It occurred to me that it would be useful if a handheld infrared heat measuring device were available, a citizen could do surveillance of a passing train for overheateed journals at a public grade crossing. This would be a way for a volunteer fire department to add an additional surveillance layer. Has the railroad maintained their hotbox detector? Is it functioning? Has the railroad notified the crew? Has dispatching staff acted in a timely fashion? Is there a heat detection hardware available for a citizen to use?
Want to create CHAOS? Your idea would do it.
FRA Regulations REQUIRE journals to be inspected by wayside Defect Detectors at least ONCE for every 50 miles the train travels.
Shortly after that regulation was implemented carriers (at least the one I worked for) started installing Defect Detector at approximate 25 miles spacing - with a Detector being Out of Service, for whatever the reason a train could continue to the next Detector and still be in compliance with the regulations. In more recent times (21st Century) carries have taken to placing Detectors on a 10 to 15 mile spacing. If a train, for whatever the reason, goes 50 miles WITHOUT being inspected by a Defect Detector, the train is to be stopped and the Conductor is to make a on the ground inspection of both sides of the train.
Defect Detectors broadcast their findings over the Road Radio Channel for the territory where they are located after the rear of the train clears the Detector. Defects will be identified by axle number and side (If the railroad is Timetable E-W, then the sides will be N-S; if the railroad is N-S then the sides are E-W). Detectors can be set to identify more than a single defect location, at whatever limit the carrier sets, if more than the limit are detected - the radio message will identify the defects to the limit and will then broadcast 'More Defects - Inspect entire train'.
In addition to the radio messages, the data of the inspection is retained on site. I believe most detectors in the 21st Century on the Class 1 carriers can have their data wirelessly down loaded to Signal Department Technician when necessary.
Carriers take their Defect Detectors very seriously; much more seriously than 'rail fans' understand.
Defect Detectors have electronic 'self checking' and can report that the device is 'Not Working'. If a Crew gets a Detector Not Working message, they will immediatly report that to the Train Dispatcher who will give the information to the Signal Technicians who will then dispatch the Signal Maintainer responsible for the particular detector. If the train crew gets an 'improper' detector message that is also reported through the Train Dispatcher channel.
As info I own several Harbor Freight 'Infra Red Thermometers'; these do what I ask of them around the house and home shop. I would hate to use them to measure, record and identify bearing temperature on a passing train. As a concerned 'rail fan' stopped at a crossing watching a train pass, the best thing you can do is to be visually observant for smoke or fire coming from a journal or to be audio aware of a high pitched squeel of a failing bearing. If either of these conditions are noted contact the railroad at the telephone number that is on the license plate sized blue sign that is afixed to the crossing protection stantion - on both sides of the track. Identify the car initial and number if possible to the personnel that answer the phone.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Balt has hit the nail on the head. If you see something of concern, call the emergency number. I've had to inspect for a shifted load because of a concerned citizen calling it in.
Jeff
I once reported a misplaced tarp (it was hanging off the car) to CSX on a train at Deshler - from my home in NY. The operator was a bit incredulous, but took my report.
When getting the number off the blue placard at the crossing, make note of the crossing number as well. "Smith Street in Podunk" isn't as much good to them as crossing 123456P.
I, too, have an IR thermometer, but I don't know the parameters that would apply to bearings. If it's smoking, glowing, or stinks, odds are it needs attention.
As an aside, last year I measured the temperature of the steel slabs that pass through Deshler enroute to Middletown, OH. Some of them came in still at 200°F.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACD Want to create CHAOS? Your idea would do it. FRA Regulations REQUIRE journals to be inspected by wayside Defect Detectors at least ONCE for every 50 miles the train travels. Shortly after that regulation was implemented carriers (at least the one I worked for) started installing Defect Detector at approximate 25 miles spacing - with a Detector being Out of Service, for whatever the reason a train could continue to the next Detector and still be in compliance with the regulations. In more recent times (21st Century) carries have taken to placing Detectors on a 10 to 15 mile spacing. If a train, for whatever the reason, goes 50 miles WITHOUT being inspected by a Defect Detector, the train is to be stopped and the Conductor is to make a on the ground inspection of both sides of the train. Defect Detectors broadcast their findings over the Road Radio Channel for the territory where they are located after the rear of the train clears the Detector. Defects will be identified by axle number and side (If the railroad is Timetable E-W, then the sides will be N-S; if the railroad is N-S then the sides are E-W). Detectors can be set to identify more than a single defect location, at whatever limit the carrier sets, if more than the limit are detected - the radio message will identify the defects to the limit and will then broadcast 'More Defects - Inspect entire train'. In addition to the radio messages, the data of the inspection is retained on site. I believe most detectors in the 21st Century on the Class 1 carriers can have their data wirelessly down loaded to Signal Department Technician when necessary. Carriers take their Defect Detectors very seriously; much more seriously than 'rail fans' understand. Defect Detectors have electronic 'self checking' and can report that the device is 'Not Working'. If a Crew gets a Detector Not Working message, they will immediatly report that to the Train Dispatcher who will give the information to the Signal Technicians who will then dispatch the Signal Maintainer responsible for the particular detector. If the train crew gets an 'improper' detector message that is also reported through the Train Dispatcher channel. As info I own several Harbor Freight 'Infra Red Thermometers'; these do what I ask of them around the house and home shop. I would hate to use them to measure, record and identify bearing temperature on a passing train. As a concerned 'rail fan' stopped at a crossing watching a train pass, the best thing you can do is to be visually observant for smoke or fire coming from a journal or to be audio aware of a high pitched squeel of a failing bearing. If either of these conditions are noted contact the railroad at the telephone number that is on the license plate sized blue sign that is afixed to the crossing protection stantion - on both sides of the track. Identify the car initial and number if possible to the personnel that answer the phone. Most helpful. Thanks for sharing your expertise!
This video demonstrates various aspect of CSX operations including a number of Defect Detector radio reports
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojYEPdSvIZc
Keep in mind that, just as no amount of stationary car inspection would divulge the kind of bearing failure in accidents like the one at East Palestine, no 'civilian' addition of devices scanning the outer face of the truck for 'heating' would.
Only temperature detection that accesses the inside roller bearing area, or can be pointed to it during operation, would work. It might be mentioned that no scanning or sensor-fusing (e.g. IR and high-frequency sound analysis) located outside the plate clearance will work -- you need something like an arrangement of mirrors or fiber-optics that can 'point' at the area of the inside bearing from below, subject to dust, weather, and other damage.
And to think, we used to rely on (and may still) Tempil sticks...
tree68And to think, we used to rely on (and may still) Tempil sticks...
I believe Tempil Sticks are still used by Conductors when their trains are stopped by DD's for reported hot bearing to confirm the electronic report of the DD. There are cases where the Tempil Sticks don't melt on the 'reported axle'. Per CSX Rules Conductors are requried to check 20 axles on either side of the reported one.
The temp sticks are still used. I think checking 20 axles either side of the indicated axle is standard.
If the stick doesn't melt, then the instructions are to place your hand towards the outer edge of the bearing and move it inwards towards the wheel. Being careful that the bearing could be really hot as you move your hand.
I always liked what the old heads said to do. Spit on it. If it spits back, it's hot.
PS. Don't take that last part to mean railfans should be spitting at passing trains.
we got infrafred thermometer thingies now. Plus a templestik. Down to 180 degrees now? I have 3 generations of them - all keep getting lower and lower.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Overmod Keep in mind that, just as no amount of stationary car inspection would divulge the kind of bearing failure in accidents like the one at East Palestine, no 'civilian' addition of devices scanning the outer face of the truck for 'heating' would. Only temperature detection that accesses the inside roller bearing area, or can be pointed to it during operation, would work. It might be mentioned that no scanning or sensor-fusing (e.g. IR and high-frequency sound analysis) located outside the plate clearance will work -- you need something like an arrangement of mirrors or fiber-optics that can 'point' at the area of the inside bearing from below, subject to dust, weather, and other damage.
Why did the hot bearing detectors fail to prevent the East Palestine derailment?
Euclid Overmod Keep in mind that, just as no amount of stationary car inspection would divulge the kind of bearing failure in accidents like the one at East Palestine, no 'civilian' addition of devices scanning the outer face of the truck for 'heating' would. Only temperature detection that accesses the inside roller bearing area, or can be pointed to it during operation, would work. It might be mentioned that no scanning or sensor-fusing (e.g. IR and high-frequency sound analysis) located outside the plate clearance will work -- you need something like an arrangement of mirrors or fiber-optics that can 'point' at the area of the inside bearing from below, subject to dust, weather, and other damage. Why did the hot bearing detectors fail to prevent the East Palestine derailment?
Because HBD's do not detect the temperature of both bearing raceways... Onboard bearing detection needs to become a thing.
SD60MAC9500 Euclid Overmod Keep in mind that, just as no amount of stationary car inspection would divulge the kind of bearing failure in accidents like the one at East Palestine, no 'civilian' addition of devices scanning the outer face of the truck for 'heating' would. Only temperature detection that accesses the inside roller bearing area, or can be pointed to it during operation, would work. It might be mentioned that no scanning or sensor-fusing (e.g. IR and high-frequency sound analysis) located outside the plate clearance will work -- you need something like an arrangement of mirrors or fiber-optics that can 'point' at the area of the inside bearing from below, subject to dust, weather, and other damage. Why did the hot bearing detectors fail to prevent the East Palestine derailment? Because HBD's do not detect the temperature of both bearing raceways... Onboard bearing detection needs to become a thing.
EuclidOkay, thanks for that explanation. Was this insufficiency of the detectors not known when they came into widespread use?
The original hotboxes were friction bearings - I would suspect that early detectors were made to detect those. Only heat was the issue.
The earliest hotbox detectors were the crew's noses in the caboose. IIRC, something was added to roller bearings to make them stink when they got hot. With no caboose, this would be pointless now.
Roller bearings are a comparatively recent development. As SD60 mentions, it's the inner races that need detection now, in addition to the outer races. This may well be a case of not realizing this was also a problem early on.
The more you know, the more you find out what you don't know and need to find out.
jeffhergertI always liked what the old heads said to do. Spit on it. If it spits back, it's hot. Jeff PS. Don't take that last part to mean railfans should be spitting at passing trains.
Lots of common sense (remember that?) from the old heads.
I read the PS and thought that bringing a camel on railfanning trips could provide a solution to the spitting strategy.
ChuckCobleighthought that bringing a camel on railfanning trips could provide a solution to the spitting strategy.
But if he's wrong and the bearings way overheat, would you walk a mile for a camel?
tree68 I once reported a misplaced tarp (it was hanging off the car) to CSX on a train at Deshler - from my home in NY. The operator was a bit incredulous, but took my report. When getting the number off the blue placard at the crossing, make note of the crossing number as well. "Smith Street in Podunk" isn't as much good to them as crossing 123456P.
I did the same while observing vehicle traffic driving around the obviously malfunctioning gates on the Blue Island camera. I used Street View to confirm the crossing number.
The CSX operator was surprised by the situation, but once I guided him in, he confirmed the issue (also seemed to have access to a camera on RR property where he was viewing the same from the opposite angle).
Maintainers arrived within an hour, though the problem seemed to correct on its own after about 30 minutes.
I was surprised at the YouTube commenters who obviously saw the same thing I did but were content to chat about it without realizing they could actually help.
I thought from all I've read that the bearing was trending hot. Not enough to set off the detector in the field, until the last one that was too late. Even though the detector doesn't alarm in the field, it sends data to a central location where a person interprets it. I think in my career I or my conductor have checked more possible hot boxes because of the bearing desk noticing heat building up rather than a detector giving a direct alarm.
It's possible for detectors to get fooled. It's possible, maybe probable, that whomever looked at the detector readings saw something to indicate the heat rise was an anomaly and decided to not have the train notified.
Yes, the detectors were designed when much if the car fleet had plain bearings and heat was much more visible. But that doesn't mean the detectors are useless.
From the explanation given on another forum, I think more acoustic detectors are what's needed. They can find a bearing that's beginning to fail before there's any heat.
jeffhergertBut that doesn't mean the detectors are useless.
The thing I keep harping on is essentially the same thing that makes the 'increased car inspections' in the House and Senate "post-East-Palestine" bills so idiotic: a thermal detector will almost never 'alert' on an inside-bearing failure, or indeed an axle failure; this adds to the realization that some types of failure can progress catastrophically within even the ten miles between detectors that the legislation would mandate.
Overmod...The acoustic signature of some bearing failures is not a high prolonged screech or other obvious timbre and pattern of sound -- and ultrasonic frequencies may not make it 'out of the truck frame' and through 15' or more of air to the microphone array. This, again, is why some form of onboard monitoring close to each bearing seat is important if you actually want to have systematic protection against catastrophic roller-bearing failure.
What would be the cost of EIGHT of 'your' detectors per car? Multiplied by cars in use nationwide.
BaltACD Overmod ...The acoustic signature of some bearing failures is not a high prolonged screech or other obvious timbre and pattern of sound -- and ultrasonic frequencies may not make it 'out of the truck frame' and through 15' or more of air to the microphone array. This, again, is why some form of onboard monitoring close to each bearing seat is important if you actually want to have systematic protection against catastrophic roller-bearing failure. What would be the cost of EIGHT of 'your' detectors per car? Multiplied by cars in use nationwide.
Overmod ...The acoustic signature of some bearing failures is not a high prolonged screech or other obvious timbre and pattern of sound -- and ultrasonic frequencies may not make it 'out of the truck frame' and through 15' or more of air to the microphone array. This, again, is why some form of onboard monitoring close to each bearing seat is important if you actually want to have systematic protection against catastrophic roller-bearing failure.
What would be the cost of another East Palestine or worse?
Corporate profits reign supreme over health, safety and property?
My version puts the temperature, vibration, and 'microphone' sensors for various ranges of sound in a module that goes in a recess in the bearing seat elastomer pad -- stock module in a stock recess, field interchangeable. This communicates with a small processor that mounts on a sideframe, and that 'registers' that sideframe as a unit. Wayside equipment can then communicate via one of the flavors of RFID or wireless networking either to receive data or communicate requests for data or testing.
The system would be installed incrementally, probably as trucks are serviced to change out wheelseats and release sideframes for installation. There are options for scale of rollout, priorities for installation, financing methods including tax setasides, etc. just as there are for ECP and enhanced private-crossing devices.
There is also some cost associated with continuous data transception from 'all the devices' to wayside detection. Since most of the regular traffic that actually has to be transmitted is within available PTC bandwidth, we might consider the necessary changes to the SDR architecture in PTC a one-time expense if done right, with other synergistic potential benefits for train operation and handling.
I am highly interesting in seeing how the NTSB recounts the cause of the East Palestine accident. There seems to be a considerable amount of "vested interest" in the problem being something that is amenable to increased hours of carman inspection (on the union and Government side) and to more closely spaced and intricately sensor-fused wayside detector suites (on the grudging railroad side). While I would hope this wouldn't influence the structure of a fact-finding report, it's something everyone here should be carefully watching with critical BS detectors tuned and working.
jeffhergert I thought from all I've read that the bearing was trending hot. Not enough to set off the detector in the field, until the last one that was too late. Even though the detector doesn't alarm in the field, it sends data to a central location where a person interprets it. I think in my career I or my conductor have checked more possible hot boxes because of the bearing desk noticing heat building up rather than a detector giving a direct alarm. It's possible for detectors to get fooled. It's possible, maybe probable, that whomever looked at the detector readings saw something to indicate the heat rise was an anomaly and decided to not have the train notified. Yes, the detectors were designed when much if the car fleet had plain bearings and heat was much more visible. But that doesn't mean the detectors are useless. From the explanation given on another forum, I think more acoustic detectors are what's needed. They can find a bearing that's beginning to fail before there's any heat. Jeff
Any inside sensor for bearing temperature will have to account for the fact that there is no physical connection between the axle and the car, aside from gravity.
RFID technology can deal with that - it's already done in your car (remember the low tire pressure sensor?). Odds are the technology can be added to the endcaps.
As noted, the sensors can be added to the wheelsets at any time - new, rebuilt, etc. Eventually all wheelsets would be properly equipped. Equipping all of the cars will be a challenge. I'd opine that "fleet" cars (unit trains, IM) would be an initial focus.
The best part is that a car will roll equally well on a wheelset with, or without, the sensor.
The worst part is that this will cost money, which will detract from the bottom line - something many investors may take exception to.
Not to mention that it's one more part that can fail.
I think I have mentioned this before. When an inner bearing starts to fail, the heat produced is transferred by conduction, outward from the outer race of the bearing and casing into the sideframe, and inward to the axle, thence in toward the wheel and out toward the end cap. The problem with monitoring the endcap is that the detector only monitors the temperature rise at the outer face, when the temperature close to the inner bearing in the axle metal may have reached dangerous elevation. This is not helped if low ambient temperature (as at East Palestine) is abstracting heat before it reaches the endcap.
This can be, and I personally suspect might have been, augmented by a failure that precludes continued rotation of the initially-failed bearing, for example if the axle end fails and the truck end falls down into dragging contact. This produces plenty of 'fire' out at the railhead, or perhaps in the plate of a dragged wheel down at railhead level (not in line with the axle center where the detector is scanning for 'hot wheels' due to stuck or misapplied brakes), but this will not be where the detector is reading 'heat rise', and you will see a relatively slow and perhaps nonproportional heat rise instead of the catastrophic symptoms that, for example, were picked up by doorbell cams.
I expect the NTSB report to have a clear timeline of the reported temperature rise that culminated in the order to stop the train. I also expect this to be far below the sort of temperature that would warn a train crew to use careful handling in initially setting up and slowing the consist -- this being a factor in the 'other thread' we were having regarding more careful initiation of dynamic braking as the first stage of deceleration of a train with a heat-detector alert.
Euclid... But bearings can overheat quickly, the FRA says, and can burn off in as little as 1 to 3 minutes. Hotbox detectors failed to diagnose 124 severely defective bearings in the U.S. and Canada from 2010 to 2018, 117 of which resulted in derailments.” ...
Those would tend to sound like 'big' numbers - until you plot those numbers against all the DD inspections that happened during those eight years. A 100 car train generates 800 individual axle inspections + the number of axles of the engine. How many trains operated past how many defect detectors during the eight years mentioned to have those 124 failures?
Would 1000 trains per day operating past 10 Detectors a day be realistic?, would 1500 and 15 Detectors be realistic. In either case the total number of inspections gets real high real fast and 124 failures is a very small fraction of 1%. The ideal remains ZERO, but as we humans know, while perfection is the goal, humans and their machines rarely if ever attain it.
jeffhergert From the explanation given on another forum, I think more acoustic detectors are what's needed. They can find a bearing that's beginning to fail before there's any heat. Jeff
The problem with ABD's is they give off the same, if not more false positive's than HBD's. Train 32N that derailed in EP, OH passed 3 ABD's, giving off no warning. The other issue is that a bad bearing can also be silent. Onboard bearing detection (located on the bearing adapter) would detect vibrations. In fact a company called HUM is trialing this tech as we speak.
https://www.humindustrial.com/products
RObert Reebie's single axle Roadrailer design had a thermocouple that when broken initiated braking. IS that something for consideration? Would it be more or les effective?
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