Also the dockworkers are needed to lower the ore shutes and open the pockets, and scores of them must be raised and lowered, as the boat moves back and forth, and the load must be balanced. It can be quite choreographed.
Also, most ore cars are very old (too old for interchange) and it wouldn't be cost-effective to retrofit them.
CMStPnP Why don't they automate or mechanize the gate opening on each ore car? Seems to me that paying someone to drive alongside the train in a go cart and flip open each gate on each car is potentially more expensive than having it automated via one control point.
Why don't they automate or mechanize the gate opening on each ore car? Seems to me that paying someone to drive alongside the train in a go cart and flip open each gate on each car is potentially more expensive than having it automated via one control point.
dpeltierThe trains don't necessarily stop during the winter - although they might slow down, or be paused for critical maintenance at the unload site. But mostly the ground stacks just get bigger over the winter.
I've been saving some screen grabs from the Duluth Western Habor cam that looks down on the CN6 dock, and the taconite pile to the north-east of the dock is growing dramatically. There will be plenty of taconite ready when the locks open in March.
Lake shipping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8XGElfPJwg
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Another variation is the Northshore Mining (ex-Reserve Mining) railroad operation in Minnesota. Most iron mining companies locate their taconite mills in the iron ranges, and then haul the pellets to the lake ports. Northshore hauls the raw ore 40+ miles to their taconite mill along the lakeshore in heavy duty gondolas and empties them with rotary dumper two cars at a time. After processing at the mill, the pellets are loaded directly to the boats without need for the typical pocket ore dock. The line was featured in a Trains article in the 1960s.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Silver+Bay,+MN+55614/@47.2858488,-91.2700636,1809m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x52a8ad7b84aacb8d:0xbf43b29014d8efd!8m2!3d47.2943647!4d-91.257386!16zL20vMHc0aGM?authuser=0&entry=ttu
One of the problems with this setup, is that the ore tailings were getting into Lake Superior, containing things like asbestos. They now backhaul tailings a few miles to an inland tailings pond.
Another type of ore loading operation used to happen at the C&NW ore dock in Escanaba, Michigan (it clossed in 2017 when the second to the last mine left in the Upper Peninsula closed). Their last timber ore dock apparently needed replacing, and a new low profile design was used. Ore is unloaded landside into storage piles. Them a reclaimer puts it on conveyor belts to a low pier to a tower that raises it to ship level. Short YouTube video:
https://www.google.com/search?q=escanaba+ore+dock&oq=escanaba+ore&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgAEAAYgAQyBwgAEAAYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIHCAIQABiABDIICAMQABgWGB4yCAgEEAAYFhgeMgoIBRAAGAoYFhge0gEJMTM1NDRqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:0e0daa0c,vid:cGIM2tccjpM,st:0
The Empire was shut down several years ago. The Tilden is the last iron mine on the Marquette Range.
JayBee MidlandMike Iron ore is ground finer than talcum powder in ball mills, than introduced into flotation tanks where soap-like polar solution is bubbled up, which captures the metal and floats over the tank side. The concentrate is mixed with clay and lime binder in a 2000 degree kiln to form the taconite pellets.
MidlandMike Iron ore is ground finer than talcum powder in ball mills, than introduced into flotation tanks where soap-like polar solution is bubbled up, which captures the metal and floats over the tank side. The concentrate is mixed with clay and lime binder in a 2000 degree kiln to form the taconite pellets.
Iron ore is ground finer than talcum powder in ball mills, than introduced into flotation tanks where soap-like polar solution is bubbled up, which captures the metal and floats over the tank side. The concentrate is mixed with clay and lime binder in a 2000 degree kiln to form the taconite pellets.
Your reply jogged my memory of touring the Empire Mine (Michigan) 50+ years ago about the magnetic separators, but I also remember the flotation tanks. Cliffs' website confirms they are still using flotation at the adjacent Tilden Mine.
https://www.clevelandcliffs.com/operations/steelmaking/iron-ore-facilities
wjstix The largest Mesabi range iron ore / taconite operations like DMIR/CN and GN/BN/BNSF found it easier to create conveyor systems so the taconite pellets would be unloaded 'on shore' and stockpiled there. The pellets could then be sent through the conveyor onto the ore dock and put into whatever pocket was desired for loading into the ore boats. That also had the advantage of allowing the ore trains to operate as true unit trains; the trains didn't have to be broken down into separate shoves of ore cars up onto the dock and back.
The largest Mesabi range iron ore / taconite operations like DMIR/CN and GN/BN/BNSF found it easier to create conveyor systems so the taconite pellets would be unloaded 'on shore' and stockpiled there. The pellets could then be sent through the conveyor onto the ore dock and put into whatever pocket was desired for loading into the ore boats. That also had the advantage of allowing the ore trains to operate as true unit trains; the trains didn't have to be broken down into separate shoves of ore cars up onto the dock and back.
That photo shows them stacking ore on the ground which they do while the shipping season is closed for the winter. As I said in a previous post BNSF does unload their ore cars on ground level. Then converyor belts take the ore either to silos or during winter to ground storage.
This photo shows how CN does it at Duluth Dock #6 the only active dock in Duluth even though Dock #5 is still standing just to the southwest.
CN loading a boat at Dock#6
You can see the ground storage to the left. There are two separate piles because they store different grades of pellets.
If you go to Google Maps and search for "BNSF Allouez Taconite Facility", you'll see there isn't much of anything around it. BNSF has owned the land around there since the 1800s.
Runoff could be an issue, but pollution at the taconite producing plants is a much bigger environmental issue.
wjstixThe largest Mesabi range iron ore / taconite operations like DMIR/CN and GN/BN/BNSF found it easier to create conveyor systems so the taconite pellets would be unloaded 'on shore' and stockpiled there. The pellets could then be sent through the conveyor onto the ore dock and put into whatever pocket was desired for loading into the ore boats. That also had the advantage of allowing the ore trains to operate as true unit trains; the trains didn't have to be broken down into separate shoves of ore cars up onto the dock and back.
Thats interesting. That is more efficient and gets rid of the guy on the golf cart scenario. But that has to take up a lot of land plus the issue with runoff from the piles?
Thats interesting. That is more efficient and gets rid of the guy on the golf cart at least. But that has to take up a lot of land plus the issue with runoff from the piles.
https://cdn.forumcomm.com/dims4/default/ed50859/2147483647/strip/true/crop/3524x2316+0+0/resize/1622x1066!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffcc-cue-exports-brightspot.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com%2Ffccnn%2Fbinary%2F0bplup85pwxrwdbxzwd4ntnms3c_binary_796472.jpg
[quote user="tree68"]
The lake boats will load by weight - essentially by the Plimsol Line.
[\quote]
Somewhat true. Loading of vessel has to take into consideration, weather, water temperature, tide, and salinity which both effect draft. This can cause changes in, freeboard, airdraft and draft of a vessel as well. Which need to be considered when loading a vessel.
Although taconite can freeze in the cold, because of its round shape, it's nowhere near as bad as the old natural ore.
BaltACDNotice that Taconite trains fresh from the loading plant 'steam' when the air is cold. I feature somewhere in the Taconite manufacturing process water is involved.
BaltACDIf a Taconite train is left to sit for several day in below zero weather - do we end up with a Taconite ice cub block.
Some ore yards near docks have long infrared heated sheds to defrost strings of ore cars. In the old days, steam would be introduced into the cars.
JayBee... The reason that the boats don't have their hatches on 24' centers is that this would result in an excessive number of hatches, all of which have to be sealed watertight. This takes time for the cranes to move the hatches, crewmembers to secure the clamps around the perimiter of the hatch, and of course maintenance costs. It is just easier to shift the boat.
One of the theories on the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald was the one or more hatches lost their water tight integrity and took on water in the gale. There are multiple other theories.
CMStPnP H-h-h-h-m-m-m-m, so if the railroad is owned by private concern outside of the railroad industry, then it spots areas where improvement can be made.
H-h-h-h-m-m-m-m, so if the railroad is owned by private concern outside of the railroad industry, then it spots areas where improvement can be made.
BaltACD Notice that Taconite trains fresh from the loading plant 'steam' when the air is cold. I feature somewhere in the Taconite manufacturing process water is involved. If a Taconite train is left to sit for several day in below zero weather - do we end up with a Taconite ice cub block.
Notice that Taconite trains fresh from the loading plant 'steam' when the air is cold. I feature somewhere in the Taconite manufacturing process water is involved. If a Taconite train is left to sit for several day in below zero weather - do we end up with a Taconite ice cub block.
Yes, absolutely. Just like a ballast train. I don't know whether it has anything to do with the manufacturing process. At the BNSF Allouez facility (Superior, WI) they have various kinds of heaters installed at the car dumper, but even then, it's important to get the train dumped in a timely manner. I don't know as much about how the CN does things over in Duluth.
Frozen coal is an issue at coal unloading locations in the winter time, I suspect frozen taconite would be an issue IF the lake boats operated during the Winter.
The trains don't necessarily stop during the winter - although they might slow down, or be paused for critical maintenance at the unload site. But mostly the ground stacks just get bigger over the winter.
Dan
JayBee...secure the clamps around the perimeter of the hatch...
This is one of the theories behind the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald - that the hatches may not have been properly dogged.
Of course, it's all speculation at this point.
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BaltACD I find it to be curious that the boats have to shift their position at the dock so that the loading conveyors can dump into adjacent holds. Thought the conveyor assemblies should move to the different holds.
I find it to be curious that the boats have to shift their position at the dock so that the loading conveyors can dump into adjacent holds. Thought the conveyor assemblies should move to the different holds.
tree68 There's at least one port that requires that the boat be taken out and turned around to complete the loading.
There's at least one port that requires that the boat be taken out and turned around to complete the loading.
BackshopIt only takes around 4 hours to load the boat and much of the reason for that is that it has to be loaded in a certain pattern to keep from overstressing the hull.
Here's a video of an ore boat being loaded at an old school ore dock. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLU3l0Fwcoo
Of note is that the boat in the video, the Lee A. Tregurtha, is a decorated World War II vet. She has her awards displayed on the pilot house.
CMStPnP wjstix The now-closed Erie Mining Co. / LTV Steel ore cars were automated in a way. H-h-h-h-m-m-m-m, so if the railroad is owned by private concern outside of the railroad industry, then it spots areas where improvement can be made.
wjstix The now-closed Erie Mining Co. / LTV Steel ore cars were automated in a way.
The Ore Docks In Marquette, Michigan | The Presque Isle Dock (travelmarquette.com)
Remember that the cars in question were in captive service on a private intraplant railroad and that there was no other type of service on the road. The same situation applies to the Pilbara ore haulers in Western Australia.
wjstixThe now-closed Erie Mining Co. / LTV Steel ore cars were automated in a way.
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