charlie hebdo tree68 Unless drivers can go around them. Quiet zones generally include crossings with four quadrant gates. "Generally" is not the case in west suburban Chicago, as quiet zones prevail with single gates. As you say, people go around gates and become inuured to horns, tume them out. That is how people operate. So why tdo you want to blow horns? Often, by the time the engineer can see the vehicle, it's too late, horn blowing or not. Maybe on your short line, operating at low speeds, your horn might be useful but not likely on a Metra train at 60 mph or a two-mile-long container train at 55.
tree68 Unless drivers can go around them. Quiet zones generally include crossings with four quadrant gates.
"Generally" is not the case in west suburban Chicago, as quiet zones prevail with single gates. As you say, people go around gates and become inuured to horns, tume them out. That is how people operate.
So why tdo you want to blow horns? Often, by the time the engineer can see the vehicle, it's too late, horn blowing or not. Maybe on your short line, operating at low speeds, your horn might be useful but not likely on a Metra train at 60 mph or a two-mile-long container train at 55.
Are your West suburban Chicago 'quiet zones' FRA authorized? I don't believe the FRA has authorized single gate crossings as quiet zones.
What is your personal aversion to hearing horns? Do they indicate that there is someone besides yourself in the world? ????
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68Unless drivers can go around them. Quiet zones generally include crossings with four quadrant gates.
tree68 charlie hebdo Mostly because the horn blowing is often redundant to the gates... Unless drivers can go around them. Quiet zones generally include crossings with four quadrant gates. So, assuming the decision was made to stop blowing for crossings, how would you go about the transition?
charlie hebdo Mostly because the horn blowing is often redundant to the gates...
Unless drivers can go around them.
Quiet zones generally include crossings with four quadrant gates.
So, assuming the decision was made to stop blowing for crossings, how would you go about the transition?
You put four quadrant gates at every signalized crossing.
charlie hebdoMostly because the horn blowing is often redundant to the gates...
So, assuming the decision was made to stop blowing for crossings, how would you go about the transition? Public education? Ask Operation Lifesaver how that's going. How to you respond to a family member who insists that "they've always blown for the crossings before - they didn't this time and that's why Dad died."
Of course, you could simply absolve the railroads of any blame if a citizen chooses to ignore the signage at a crossing and drives in front of a train...
Euclid I also find it odd that the NTSB would find the probable cause of this accident to be the two conductors deciding to walk on the Amtrak track, while telling us that the employees were entirely permitted to walk there.
The answer to that one is easy. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. A key rule of railroading is to always expect a train. Period. No discussion necessary.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
rdamon charlie hebdo Several operating personnel from major railroads (on here) agree. But lawyers do not work on common sense :( I remember we had a similar discussion when the there was the accident where the crew was walking towards a train on the tracks and did not distinguish the horn and lights of the train approaching from behind.
charlie hebdo Several operating personnel from major railroads (on here) agree.
Several operating personnel from major railroads (on here) agree.
But lawyers do not work on common sense :(
I remember we had a similar discussion when the there was the accident where the crew was walking towards a train on the tracks and did not distinguish the horn and lights of the train approaching from behind.
Does anyone have the FRA accident report number concerning the "Kismet siding collision" ? Thanks. endmrw0928230918
Research has been done both in Canada and the United States to determine a more effective 'emergency' horn signal. An interesting approach from the former was to dedicate two bells of an existing five-bell horn to 'emergency' tuning (a somewhat discordant chord, like the old Emergency Broadcast System tone) and then use the other three as a typical three-bell horn.
Some of the United States research centered around 'pulling' the horn sound to make it seem the source was rapidly accelerating toward the listener. This combined with a distinctive modulation (my recommendation being what the New York subways uses, a repeated pattern of long-short with spaces between) produces an easily-distinguished "emergency-pay-attention" signal regardless of Doppler or multipath reflection.
tree68 charlie hebdo And the sequence of _ _ - _ could be modified to multiple long blasts to get the miscreants' attention. Already in the rules... That said, what's your objection to blowing for crossings?
charlie hebdo And the sequence of _ _ - _ could be modified to multiple long blasts to get the miscreants' attention.
Already in the rules...
That said, what's your objection to blowing for crossings?
Mostly because the horn blowing is often redundant to the gates and for the reasons concerning perception mentioned earlier, counter-productive. Several operating personnel from major railroads (on here) agree.
Has anyone heard any more about this accident? I've looked, but I can't find anything more than reports saying essentially the same thing.
I guess since everyone was killed (one survivor?), we may never know why the driver proceeded slowly directly into the path of the train.
York1 John
I equate this stuff to the decision to use your seatbelt when you drive. If you look at it from the perspective of taking a single trip, the likelihood of being killed is something like one in 3.5 million trips. Becoming disabled because of a car accident is one in 100k trips. Can seem like a pretty low risk. But if you look at from a 50 year lifetime of driving, it's one in a hundred of being killed and one in three of being disabled. I use my belt each trip. I think it's smarter to frame the risk level with multiple occurances rather than single.
charlie hebdoAnd the sequence of _ _ - _ could be modified to multiple long blasts to get the miscreants' attention.
charlie hebdoA more appropriate analogy using your alarm clock metaphor would be if your alarm went off randomly multiple times day and night. Eventually you wouldn't even notice it. Hornblowing at crossings should occur only when needed to alert a driver or pedestrian to get off the tracks. And the sequence of _ _ - _ could be modified to multiple long blasts to get the miscreants' attention. Like so many things with US rails, things are done a certain way "because that's the way we have always done it" to paraphrase Don Oltmann.
Hornblowing at crossings should occur only when needed to alert a driver or pedestrian to get off the tracks. And the sequence of _ _ - _ could be modified to multiple long blasts to get the miscreants' attention. Like so many things with US rails, things are done a certain way "because that's the way we have always done it" to paraphrase Don Oltmann.
My daughter uses the alarm function on her phone to sound multiple times during the day in arranging the daily schedules for her children - getting up for school, bed time and other time sensitive moments in her children's daily lives.
Sometimes NOTHING can penetrate the fog between a individuals ears to warn them of impending doom.
Another thing to remember - locomotives are 'Alerter' equipped where the tools used in operating a trains, throttle, brake valves, horn must be operated within a defined time frame or a specific 'button' activated or the train will experience a Penalty Application of the brakes which will bring the train to a stop, before the device can be reset and the train continue on its way.
BaltACDFrom those conversations, I would venture railroads have never killed old or inferior livestock. Every animal has been at least a County Champion for its class if not a State Champion. Railroad only run over the best.
I'm a retired Army Officer and did several tours in Germany - which was Armor Branch's Home Away Fom Home back in the day (An Armor Master or First Sergeant or Sergeant Major without a German wife was letting the side down). Anyway, we would have to road march from home station to a major training area (Grafenwoehr, Hohenfels) several times as year and in the Fall (after the harvests were in - Fall maneuvers was a German tradition that dated back to Imperial times), we would maneuver cross country as part of the annual Autumn Forge exercises. For such occasions, we would be given a German speaking reserve officer to act as the battalion S5 (Civil-Military Affairs Officer). His vehicle would trail the unit and he would instantly settle, on the spot, any damaged property or dead animal claims. During my day, he was armed with a checkbook, but our Squadron Commander and Sergeant Major could remember back in the Fifties when he had a briefcase stuffed with Deutsch Marks! And, of course, the US taxpayer paid through the nose for each "champion" cow, pig and chicken that died (I felt we should at least be able to give the carcase to the cooks since we had bought it). To make it worse, the US and German governments had worked out an agreement that we would pay for all the offspring it would have had in its lifetime. And maybe their offspring's lifetime. The German people may not have liked having US troops stationed on their soil, but they sure loved our money!
BaltACD charlie hebdo My point was that for road crossings, the benefits seem minimal, at least according to the operating personnel who posted. And it really seems unnecessary for trains meeting or passing each other to blow horns, not in the 21st century. Minimal, NOT nonexistent. Why do we have Alarm Clocks (or suitable apps on our phones) to awaken us for the day ahead at a predetermined time. Audible warnings are something that has existed since the second human observed the first human doing something that was feared to be life threatening.
charlie hebdo My point was that for road crossings, the benefits seem minimal, at least according to the operating personnel who posted. And it really seems unnecessary for trains meeting or passing each other to blow horns, not in the 21st century.
Minimal, NOT nonexistent.
Why do we have Alarm Clocks (or suitable apps on our phones) to awaken us for the day ahead at a predetermined time. Audible warnings are something that has existed since the second human observed the first human doing something that was feared to be life threatening.
A more appropriate analogy using your alarm clock metaphor would be if your alarm went off randomly multiple times day and night. Eventually you wouldn't even notice it.
Our various percerptions are evolved to detect changes in the environment and unusual events. Thus routine horn blowing at crossings may actually go by unregustered.
charlie hebdoMy point was that for road crossings, the benefits seem minimal, at least according to the operating personnel who posted. And it really seems unnecessary for trains meeting or passing each other to blow horns, not in the 21st century.
My point was that for road crossings, the benefits seem minimal, at least according to the operating personnel who posted. And it really seems unnecessary for trains meeting or passing each other to blow horns, not in the 21st century.
I would opine that the concept of trains blowing horns for crossings is quite thoroughly ingrained in the psyche of those who do experience trains on a regular basis.
Some years ago we had a fellow stop his car on a crossing right in front of us. He managed to get off the crossing before we got there, partly due to the engineer putting the train in emergency.
His comment as we passed? "Why weren't you blowing the horn?" In reality, we were, except it was a Leslie Typhon "blat" horn, not a now common three or five chime horn.
But he didn't recognize it for what it was.
Despite the exceptions noted here, which represent a miniscule fraction of the total crossing interfaces occurring daily, I suspect the horn serves its purpose.
NKP guy jeffhergert I don't know how to change driver's attitudes towards crossings. One of my students some years ago was killed in her car at a train crossing here in town and a few months later Operation Lifesaver had me on board as a representitive from the school system. They mounted a camera on the locomotive so we passengers could see for ourselves how many cars raced over the crossings, no matter the flashing lights, in order to beat the train. But it was seeing one or two schoolbuses doing this that really shocked me. These days most all of the crossings around here have had gates installed to good effect.
jeffhergert I don't know how to change driver's attitudes towards crossings.
One of my students some years ago was killed in her car at a train crossing here in town and a few months later Operation Lifesaver had me on board as a representitive from the school system. They mounted a camera on the locomotive so we passengers could see for ourselves how many cars raced over the crossings, no matter the flashing lights, in order to beat the train. But it was seeing one or two schoolbuses doing this that really shocked me.
These days most all of the crossings around here have had gates installed to good effect.
In the public psyche today railroads only exist in two ways. Either then 'no longer run trains on that track' or they always have a train blocking that track.
Part of the problem, is that the public doesn't enough trains moving on a track segment for it register in their minds that trains are acutally running all the time. The public can go over the same crossing hundreds of times without seeing a train and form the idea in their head that that track is not in service as they never see a train using it. PSR in operating fewer, bigger trains has tended to reinforce the idea as fewer trains can increase that hundreds of time to thousands of times.
jeffhergertI don't know how to change driver's attitudes towards crossings.
Going back to my own experience -
I drove across the same crossing twice a day for years, going to and from work. If I caught a train there a dozen times, I'd be amazed. Granted, with three to five trains a day, the odds weren't high, but that's my point.
If I were an uninitiated member of the public, I might conclude that there was virtually no rail traffic over that crossing, so the possibility of said traffic probably wouldn't come to mind most of the time. It's just a bumpy spot in the road.
That doesn't exempt the folks who ignore active crossing protection, but on an unprotected crossing such as the one in question, they may not understand the potential for disaster.
The following has made the rounds for some time, and is intended as humorous, but one cannot discount the possibility that similar considerations were in play, going over what was, based on photos of the scene, not the smoothest crossing:
If you rarely drive on snow, just pretend you're taking your grandma to church. There's a platter of biscuits and 2 gallons of sweet tea in glass jars in the back seat. She's wearing a new dress and holding a crock pot full of gravy.
jeffhergert... That may not always be the case. If the wind is blowing hard in the wrong direction, it may carry the sound away from the crossing. Newer cars are more sound proofed making it harder to hear outside warnings. (There have been articles about emergency vehicle siren's not being heard by drivers.) With or without better sound proofed cars, there's more often than not a radio or other sound system playing. There's also the possibility of being engrossed in conversation with passengers or on a cell phone. I don't know how to change driver's attitudes towards crossings. Jeff
That may not always be the case. If the wind is blowing hard in the wrong direction, it may carry the sound away from the crossing. Newer cars are more sound proofed making it harder to hear outside warnings. (There have been articles about emergency vehicle siren's not being heard by drivers.) With or without better sound proofed cars, there's more often than not a radio or other sound system playing. There's also the possibility of being engrossed in conversation with passengers or on a cell phone.
I don't know how to change driver's attitudes towards crossings.
Jeff
Note that the vehicle in the 'accident' was a 2020 Escalade - being a Cadillac product, I suspect it was better insulated from outside noise than most vehicles.
Jeff, people in our town regularly flaunt stop signs at street crossings these days. You have to really drive defensively.
Gramp So sad. Another photo I saw shows the stop signs (not just a crossbuck) at the private crossing. Don't know in this case but see this every day. So many people don't follow the rules of the road. Either they think they're above traffic laws or in such a hurry.
So sad. Another photo I saw shows the stop signs (not just a crossbuck) at the private crossing. Don't know in this case but see this every day. So many people don't follow the rules of the road. Either they think they're above traffic laws or in such a hurry.
It's a railroad crossing. They evidently don't think that a stop sign or yield sign means the same thing at crossing. (I bet most don't even know the crossbuck sign by itself is a yield sign.) Most wouldn't think of not stopping at a stop sign at an intersection, even if the view for all approaching routes was clear for a mile and there wasn't a car in sight.
Not so at a railroad crossing. They may slow down, more out of fear that the crossing will be rough and may even glance down the tracks. Or maybe not. I think some think they will hear a train's horn if there is a train closely approaching.
A possible explanation would be that he was advised by another passenger to go very slow out of an abundance of caution along with a warning that, “the crossing is unusually dangerous, so go slow.” So he took that advice and acted on it, but did not focus it on the right subject. Instead he looked straight ahead as though the danger was on the crossing deck itself, in other words, a dangerous “crossing.”
Stop signs at a grade crossing tend to be ignored. Years ago, a friend of mine was visiting family in the South and observed that nobody stopped at grade crossings with stop signs or blinking red lights.
diningcar The description given with the video says "collided with the train and being fliped". I interpret this to mean the train was already across the road crossing and the vehicle ran into the side of a moving train.
The description given with the video says "collided with the train and being fliped".
I interpret this to mean the train was already across the road crossing and the vehicle ran into the side of a moving train.
All other descriptions I could find indicate that vehicle was moving slowly across the crossing and was struck. This would fit with the description of the vehicle as looking like a crushed soda can.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/24/us/plant-city-florida-train-suv-crash.html
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.